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Trans War

Started by Da Monkey, July 28, 2011, 12:04:24 PM

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kyril

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 01, 2011, 03:23:42 PM
My college degree is mathematics and physics. Measurement is the only truth I recognize here.
Mine's in geophysics and applied mathematics. Order-of-magnitude estimates as 'sanity checks' are standard procedure for most fields outside pure math and theoretical physics (mostly because you pure types don't require...or encourage...sanity  >:-))


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kyril

Quote from: Padma on August 01, 2011, 07:47:29 PM
Yeah, but my point was that you don't have to have sex with anyone to infiltrate a community and tear it apart :). All it takes is to be a dab hand at gossip and back biting ::).
Well, yes, but if you claim to be gay in order to infiltrate the community and tear it apart, sooner or later someone's going to expect you to sleep with someone. Or at least date someone. If you're being a total jerk, creating rifts in the community, and not even dating anyone, eventually we're going to pull your gay card.


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Padma

Interesting - so you have a closed-door policy on celibate people? Back when I was calling myself gay (before I realised not all gay men hated bisexuals and came out as a bi man - way before I admitted I was actually a bi woman), the only time I remember having that stupid "how do you know you're gay if you're not sleeping with men?" conversation was back when I was 17 ::). After that I don't recall anyone threatening to revoke my gay card for not being sexually active (back when I was not sexually active...). I feel like you're saying "you're not gay unless you're screwing" but maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
Womandrogyne™
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kyril

Nonono. You're misunderstanding. Of course you can be gay without being sexually active.

But...let's say you come out as gay. Let's say you're very very vocal and politically active in a way that caused a lot of strife within the gay community - let's say that you insist that you get to define what "gay" meant, and you are a Real Gay and those Other People you didn't like, perhaps the drag queens and faerie boys and Pride Parade marchers, are Not Really Gay. You insist that you deserve equal rights but those people don't, and that laws need to be written in a way that would explicitly exclude them from protections. You oppose any law (for instance, ENDA) that might accidentally protect them. You support highly socially-conservative social policies that mirror the Republican Party platform. You basically act like the gay version of the HBS club.

You're not going to be terribly popular within the gay community with those views no matter what. You'd fit right in at GOProud, but you won't get far with the mainstream inclusive majority. However, if on top of all that you have no actual same-sex relationship history, nobody's ever seen you being affectionate with a same-sex partner, you don't flirt convincingly with anybody, and you give no indication of any actual interest in the above...if for all intents and purposes you're acting like a right wing homophobe and you give no indication in your relationships/interactions that you're actually attracted to people of the same sex...at some point, somebody's going to notice and call you on it.

That's what I mean. It has nothing to do with celibate GLB people who just want to live their lives. Most GLB people are aware of their sexuality long before their first same-sex sexual experience; they're still GLB. Nobody has the right to question anyone else's self-described identity...as long as they're not attacking yours.

My observation is strictly limited to the sort of people I imagine being analogous to the instigators of the 'Trans Wars' - people who act, for all intents and purposes, like hostile outsiders, like enemies of the broader community. People who object to inclusiveness and attack other people's identities. A hypothetical straight 'infiltrator' who wants to be taken seriously as an actual gay person while instigating political strife in the gay community, pushing a socially-conservative agenda, and marginalizing/devaluing/excluding the visibly-gay majority is going to find themselves in a fairly awkward situation because they're opening the validity of their own identity to questions by denying the validity of other people's.

A hypothetical cis infiltrator into the trans community, on the other hand, wouldn't have any such problem.


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Padma

Womandrogyne™
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justmeinoz

I guess it's all a matter of what we think the word means.

We should keep in mind though that the map is not the territory, and the word is not the object.  On top of that when people in different countries have a different definition of the same term......

Why don't we all get along and agree that it's all a bit messy and subject to change.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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tekla

Most people hate those math 'story problems' they always handed out in school, tragically, in real life, story problems are the ones most like what we are required to solve.  Same with all the stuff where they wanted you to 'guess' (oh sure they used a fancy word, 'estimate' - but face it, you were guessing).  Either way, what they wanted you to do was take the available information and at least string it together in such a fashion that you could arrive at a basic range that the answer would fall into.  Sometimes you can bring outside information into it, other times you can't, and you never know all of it, as the wise one once pointed out:

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.  We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.  But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
         —Former United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

So you take numbers you have a familiarity with.  Number that are real to you (This is where we lose a lot of people, as they have no real personal association with numbers).  And as long as you're at it, might as well take numbers that are easy to work with - hence rounding.  I have a couple pretty big numbers in my head.  Like: the population of the US = 300 Million, of California, 37Million (roughly 10% of the nation as a whole) and Iowa, 3Million, (so about 1% of the nation).  I've been in crowds of 1/4Million, 1/2Million and in Chicago over a million.  It's a lot of farking people.  People for miles.  The rough area I live in has 150K in the city, 450K for the county, and 7.3 million for the region (Bay Area).  Those are number's that I 'know' (they are 'known knowns').  I can clearly visualize what it would look like if everyone in my city got up and went downtown.  Same for the county.  And I can project to the region, I already have a very clear understanding of how much space it takes to house them.

Then you take the definitions - which is just you narrowing or expanding the variables (don't matter which at this point) so I'll use 'irreversible surgical procedure' like many of the state laws do.  And then you work the numbers.  1 in 30,000, well hell, we got more than five in Santa Rosa for sure.  I know of three I see all the time.  That number gets you 10,000 for the country and I think they counted some 8K in the Bay Area some 10 years ago, so there has to be more than 2K elsewhere in LA, and that's not even the rest of the US. So that's not right.  Let's slip it down one, 1: 10,000 that get's you to 30K, a somewhat more reasonable number.  But we do have some statistical back up.  One, there are not that many doctors doing the procedure, its' easy enough to figure how many they can do a year.  And we can also look at changes in LS/SS records for gender over a couple of years (I'm sure the number is higher ever year) and get a baseline.  Those numbers, of records changes, will generally fit the defination of 'irreversible surgical procedure', and since just about everyone in the US has a DL/State ID (same thing for our purposes), will give us a pretty accurate tally.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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RebeccaFog


I want to smash Donald Rumsfeld in the face with his own colon.


I may have slipped off topic  ::)
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tekla

& all the king's horses
& all the kings' men
can't get us out
of the war's Rummy got us in

He was beyond awesome.  Evil brilliance sure, but brilliant none the less.

Besides once you bring real math into a thread you've pretty much killed it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Padma

Well, the probability rapidly approaches 1, anyway :).
Womandrogyne™
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Lisbeth

Quote from: kyril on August 01, 2011, 10:53:44 PM
Mine's in geophysics and applied mathematics. Order-of-magnitude estimates as 'sanity checks' are standard procedure for most fields outside pure math and theoretical physics (mostly because you pure types don't require...or encourage...sanity  >:-))
The history of science is filled with "sanity checks" preventing scientific progress. A simple sanity check said that earth can't possibly go around the sun; clearly the sun goes around the earth.

Quote from: Cowboi on August 01, 2011, 08:38:17 PM
How do we know that? I mean like, do you mean it's close to todays number and is accurate or just it's close to the same numbers they claim today?
The biggest problem scientists have is thinking they're measuring something different than they really are. I don't believe those numbers are measuring trans-people. They are measuring the amount those cultures permit people to come out.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Cowboi

Quote from: Padma on August 02, 2011, 12:33:10 PM
Well, the probability rapidly approaches 1, anyway :).

It may have just been because this followed Tekal's comment about bringing math into a discussion kills it, but that made me laugh out loud Padma.... for real. I think the people around me are curious what is so funny.
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Padma

My work here is done... 8)
Womandrogyne™
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pebbles

I personally never saw any point in this "war" I have enough enimies as it is. I have no intrest in starting any more fights.
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