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Trans in the Workplace: It’s Not Just About Gender

Started by Shana A, August 02, 2011, 07:45:05 PM

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Arch

I don't want to continue to derail the thread--I'll get back on track in a minute--but loans can be denied for a number of reasons, not just drug convictions. A Stafford loan is ALMOST a guarantee for a school that is participating in the program. (Frankly, I would be suspicious of a school that isn't participating, but there could be non-suspect reasons that I'm unaware of.)

There are other reasons. If you have reached the max loan limit, you can't get more, of course. However, the limits are usually pretty generous. If you've defaulted on a previous loan--I think it has to be another federal loan--then they obviously aren't going to approve you for more loans. That can be a hard mistake to recover from. And it's always possible that a few people are denied because of mistakes or crossed wires.  Such denials should be reversed after an appeal.

I also suspect that some FTMs are denied on Selective Service grounds (most of us at Susan's Place have heard about this possibility already). I know that it happened with my friend's free aid just this year, although he got it sorted out in the end, after he went through some appeals. He is M with the state and F with the feds, and that caused some problems. I don't know the specifics--maybe he filled out the wrong gender box (which, of course, would be his error)--but I know that he was at first denied because he hadn't registered with Selective Service Systems. Any man, whether cisgender or trans, can be denied federal loans for not registering with SSS. The exemption letter, if a guy has one, should clear that up. Or he can just check the "F" box.

Back to the subject at hand. Frankly, I am disturbed by some of the attitudes expressed in this thread. NOWHERE does the article say that trans people of color and trans people from low-income backgrounds can't succeed. The article simply points out that such folks face MORE discrimination and MORE hurdles than other trans folks who don't have those factors in their lives.

The article isn't specific about why young Chris was unable to get financial aid for college. That's unfortunate because such details might clarify whether Chris is grappling with a drug conviction, Selective Service issues, or just plain ignorance about how to get the financial aid he supposedly needs. Young people are often ignorant or even completely misinformed about such things, and young people from families with no college history are even more likely to be in the dark.

Case in point: My father has a degree, but I didn't know anything about financial aid. As an undergrad, I went to my college's financial aid office to inquire about what I might be eligible for. The woman I talked to was supposedly an expert, but when I told her my father's income, she got huffy and rude. She told me that I didn't qualify for ANY aid of ANY kind. I was ignorant, and she was the expert, so I took her word for it.

At a certain point in grad school, I went to my grad institution's financial aid office to inquire about a small loan, and I was treated so rudely (perhaps because I was recognizably trans?) and dismissively that I realized that I would rather tough it out than be treated like that again. The woman I talked to did NOT lay out different types of aid and tell me what types of aid I was and was not eligible for. It was pretty plain that she just wanted to get rid of me, and she did. When I mentioned my experience to a roomful of my undergrad students, many of them told me that this kind of treatment was the rule rather than the exception. A few said that they had complained but that nothing had been done. Most of my students at that time were people of color, and a large portion were from working class families. I began to wonder if the financial aid employee was simply racist, classist, and transphobic. And maybe a little power-mad.

If you're eighteen or twenty years old, from a non-college background, and already on the wrong foot because you're trans, those "experts" and "advisors" and the whole bureaucracy can be pretty intimidating, especially if they turn you away and you take their word for it out of sheer ignorance. And I should add that if you're an FTM and were raised as a girl, to be quiet, compliant, and compromising, that can go double or even triple.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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kate durcal

Quote from: Korlee on August 06, 2011, 02:12:30 AM
You and Ann seem to have it in your heads that everyone is exactly the same.  That each person born without an arm or some other BS all has a miracle talent deep within that makes them superman/woman that lets them overcome all of it.  After all each person grew up in the same schools, got beaten daily the same ways, raped the same way, spoken to by their parents the same exact way, has the exact same brain function as the person next to them, had the same kinda money, the same community to live in, or whatever other BS you want to pull out of your hat to say.

The simple fact is for every one -superjerk- out there that overcomes amazing odds?  There are ten more just like him/her with her/his disability that struggle each day just to get out of bed.  They do not have the brain type or skill to write with stub hands, swim without limbs, move fluidly without sight, yada yada.  No two people are even remotely the same.  Sometimes despite a miracle workers best efforts there are walls that can't be overcome for some people.  It means jack that you don't believe it because of one -superjerk- because that person could just be I dunno a -statistical anomaly-, had the right conditions to excel, the right community, support network, whatever that the next 99 people lacked.

Heck, the same is true for the plumber example.  The world can't be full of amazing plumbers! Also some areas don't even care if you are amazing they still pay you crap either way.  Lets not get into area politics or office politics that can steamroll even the best of people.  No matter how hard they try and or fight.  It can also only take one single mistake to ruin a persons reputation where they can never get work in that area again.

It just boggles my mind how you are trying to simplify life into some BS little cube.  That the ridiculous idea that one person can do something means everyone can!  The sheer disgusting truth is life isn't that damn beautiful!  Life is a disgusting horrid thing where there are an endless amount of lives where people get the shaft and it is no fault of their own.  The main thing that holds most people together to live is just that small light of joy they had five minutes ago before the five days of garbage. 

You have no idea what each person has went through, what their limits are, what they are good at, nada zip nothing.  Sometimes they themselves do not even know and with the endless possibilities out there?  They may never know even if they searched their whole life.  Nothing is as simple as you are making it out to be and it disgusts me you just claim all these people are nothing but losers making -excuses- so they feel better with failure.

Life is a struggle and sometimes only one goal at a time AT BEST is open to people.  Only someone who has been coddled can say what you have said with a straight face.

While is true that each and every one of us have "gifts" and "disabilities," straight and weakness, to deal with, there is people who seem content to blame their situation into something or somebody, and never take responsibilities for their own decisions. It is always some excuse, never their own fault.

I remember as a teen working during the day and going to night school, and seen the other teen boys and girls hanging out on the street, most of them work part time jobs just to blow their monies in smokes, drinks, or clothing.  Sometimes i used to stop and talk to them. They use to tell me that I was a fool and a weirdo because I was always studying or working.  They had the luxury of somebody feeding them, I was on my own.
After high school, these people continue the same life style, party  and working to continue partying (weed, smokes, buzz, sex) and doing nothing. Twenty years later I run into om of them who come to the hospital wounded after some brawl. They recognized me, and did talk with me. One of them said: "man, look at you!" "It is not fair." I asked him what is not fair? he said: "you got all the breaks!"
You have to f..... kidding me! I thought to myself.





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Arch

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 03:46:36 PM
While is true that each and every one of us have "gifts" and "disabilities," straight and weakness, to deal with, there is people who seem content to blame their situation into something or somebody, and never take responsibilities for their own decisions. It is always some excuse, never their own fault.

Kate, I think people are just talking at cross purposes here and aren't understanding each other. I think we've all met people--both trans and non-trans--who always make excuses and who don't take responsibility for their own lives.

I have had a couple of non-trans friends like this. I am no longer friends with them, mainly because of their approach to life. I felt--perhaps incorrectly--that these people WERE capable of getting control of their lives. Perhaps they just needed more time than other people to do that; they may very well have gotten their lives on track since I broke off relations with them. I felt that they were sucking me dry; I got out of those friendships to save my own sanity.

But a lot of my trans friends struggle a great deal. Most have faced open discrimination, and some are still working through that. I can definitely say that the ones from "humble" class origins, on average, have had a tougher road than I have. And I know a few trans people of color who have faced additional discrimination that just makes their lives more difficult. So I think the article has some good points.

Occasionally, my friends will complain. I think they have good reason to; life has handed them some pretty steep obstacles. Sometimes they get bad information because of transphobic hostility, and that's another hurdle to get over. Sometimes they are very emotionally hurt by other people's hostility, and they have to lick their wounds until they are ready to try again.

But this does not mean that they are whiners who refuse to take responsibility for their lives. They are average folks, except for being trans; and because they are trans, they have to work harder than other people just to get by, let alone to make progress. The ones who face class and race barriers have it that much tougher. For trans people like them, such factors are reasons, not simply excuses.

You know how hard you worked to improve your life, so I'm sure you can imagine how tough it is for other trans people, some of whom are perhaps less fortunate and less resilient than you. They'll get there in their own way, following their own path. But it might be a longer and nastier path than other people encounter.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Pica Pica

I have a perfectly fine education - educated to a masters level in a university with a top 5 national level and top 20 international.

I suppose I'm living on the breadline because I chose to a bit, I got my goals and I'm going to achieve them, even if it hurts my credit rating (which is a pair of words I can never think without putting them in a Frank Zappa voice).

Though the arrogance of saying it's the guy's fault he's been made to feel like ->-bleeped-<- because he didn't get a better education would be mind-blowing, if I hadn't spent enough time on internet forums with Americans.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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kate durcal

I can see how my posting can come across insensitive or arrogant; but what I am supposed to do ? Promote defeatism and mediocrity? perpetuate a culture of victimization?

Kate D
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Pica Pica

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 03, 2011, 08:45:15 AM
there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

was the one that inspired my little tirade actually.

And to be honest, I'd perpetuate a culture of co-operation and community.
It doesn't have to be master and servant, victim and champion, winner and loser - it's perfectly possible to create self-sustaining communities within the larger one where people find their places. A mediocre person with great friends is always going to be a happier, brighter, more interesting person than a lone high flier.

Or that could just be the words of a happy mediocrity.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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cynthialee

If everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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tekla

Frank Zappa

Frank was fond of saying that if you wanted an education go to a library, if you want to get laid, go to college.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Hermione01

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kate durcal

Quote from: cynthialee on August 06, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
If everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?

The same people who are currently doing it, the legal and illegal immigrants.
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rexgsd

Just to comment, I actually recently stopped going to college mainly because my dysphoria and situation is just so horrible, I need to be able to work and get money quick to get the surgery done. I really need it done as soon as possible. Also, being in college in the middle of transition isn't too wonderful, especially if you're with the same group of guys 2 years straight, and they all see you as a female =(

I do plan on going back, but i'd have to be around this same time next year. If I can't get all my surgeries/recovery done by then though, I don't know what to do. Maybe wait another year after that.
☥fiat justitia ruat coelum☥

"Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls. Its a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world." - The Kinks

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regan

Quote from: rexgsd on August 06, 2011, 08:15:11 PM
Just to comment, I actually recently stopped going to college mainly because my dysphoria and situation is just so horrible, I need to be able to work and get money quick to get the surgery done. I really need it done as soon as possible. Also, being in college in the middle of transition isn't too wonderful, especially if you're with the same group of guys 2 years straight, and they all see you as a female =(

I do plan on going back, but i'd have to be around this same time next year. If I can't get all my surgeries/recovery done by then though, I don't know what to do. Maybe wait another year after that.

Go back just as soon as you're ready.  People are fond of saying "once you drop out, you'll never go back".  It took me 14 years but I earned a bachelors degree.  I'm just over half way through my masters degree now.  Just promise yourself you'll go back.
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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Pica Pica

My dad failed high school and now has a BA from Cambridge and a doctorate from Princeton.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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regan

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 06, 2011, 08:24:11 PM
My dad failed high school and now has a BA from Cambridge and a doctorate from Princeton.

I didn't want to put my ego ahead of myself, but I got kicked out of college twice for low grades, matured a little (ok a lot) and graduated with a 3.41 (and with "honors"), I'm maintaining a 3.85 in my masters program.

JB Hunt (of the trucking company) dropped out of high school, so did Jim Carrey...
Our biograhies are our own and we need to accept our own diversity without being ashamed that we're somehow not trans enough.
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kate durcal

Quote from: tekla on August 06, 2011, 07:52:26 PM
Frank Zappa

Frank was fond of saying that if you wanted an education go to a library, if you want to get laid, go to college.

I know that some old folks rave about Zappa as a great musician, but the best he could do was to come to number 10 in 1974 (Apostrophe). Now a days most Young people do not know who he was, his music is rarely played.

No other contributions, zilch, zip, nada; perhaps he would have done better have he gone to college.

Kate D
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Pica Pica

yeah and studied music so he could be just like The Kooks, or Two Door Cinema Club or whatever bland squash is piling the pound coins up at the moment.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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rexgsd

Kate, I'll have to say, I see where you're coming from, but i don't believe in 'numbers' or chart positions. Besides, Zappa had a cult following. He might have not been as popular with the main crowd, but he had a hell of a cult following. He's just wacky, and that's also why they aren't really gonna play his stuff on the radio haha. Along with it's obscenities sometimes.
☥fiat justitia ruat coelum☥

"Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls. Its a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world." - The Kinks

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Pica Pica

And not everyone has a statue of them in Vilnius


I like Vilnius, I want our mayor to do unto those in Kensington what their mayor is doing.

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Shana A

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 08:28:44 PM
I know that some old folks rave about Zappa as a great musician, but the best he could do was to come to number 10 in 1974 (Apostrophe). Now a days most Young people do not know who he was, his music is rarely played.

No other contributions, zilch, zip, nada; perhaps he would have done better have he gone to college.

Kate D

Having hit songs isn't the only criteria to judge artistry or recognition. In his later years, FZ composed orchestral music and it was performed and recorded by top symphonies. He also become involved in politics and notably testified in Congress against censorship of music. Not exactly zilch in terms of contributions.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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cynthialee

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 08:10:25 PM
The same people who are currently doing it, the legal and illegal immigrants.
I can't believe that you would say that trash.
I will no longer talk to you, that response was bigoted.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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