Why "amend" your birth certificate?

[amy2003]

So now that I'm 8 years post-transition and 6 months post-op I looked into changing my birth certificate here in Alabama.  Didn't know you had to have a court order.  Wow.

So if you can only "amend" your BC, and it will still indicate you were born of the other sex, and all of your other documentation (i.e. driver's license, passport, etc.) are already changed, can anyone give me a good reason to have your BC changed when it takes so much effort (i.e. judge, court order, lots of money)?

I really would like to know any answers, 'cause right now I don't see the point.  If they would issue a new BC not reflecting my birth gender then I would jump through hoops and pay the money.

Thanks,
Amy

[justmeinoz]

Here it means you can legally marry after you have had SRS and change your BC. Once the current marriage equality campaign succeeds that won't matter, but it will still help avoid social confusion by allowing everything else to be changed.  Things such as passports, medicare card etc.
How noticeable the change will be depends where you are and how the system works.

Karen.

[Ann Onymous]

So now that I'm 8 years post-transition and 6 months post-op I looked into changing my birth certificate here in Alabama.  Didn't know you had to have a court order.  Wow.

Have no idea what different jurisdictions require...I was born in a State that made the correction without a court order and accepted the affidavit from my surgeon.

So if you can only "amend" your BC, and it will still indicate you were born of the other sex, and all of your other documentation (i.e. driver's license, passport, etc.) are already changed, can anyone give me a good reason to have your BC changed when it takes so much effort (i.e. judge, court order, lots of money)?

Again, it is jurisdictional dependent.  My birth certificate was actually corrected.  If someone tried to get my birth record in my home State, it will shown that I was BORN female.  There are no indications of a correction or amendment to the record.  It is simply recorded as it should originally have been in the mid-60's.

My quandry would have been if they required the court order since I never had to get one in order to change DL or SSN.  Yeah, I know...I suck...I slipped through the pre-9/11 cracks.

I really would like to know any answers, 'cause right now I don't see the point.  If they would issue a new BC not reflecting my birth gender then I would jump through hoops and pay the money.

only the relevant State agency can answer your question on how they do things...it never hurts to make a phone call even in a State perceived as being backwoods in nature

[amy2003]

Thanks, Karen.  I hadn't thought of marriage.  I assume I would have to have it changed to marry a guy.

Ann & Valerie, thanks, but I wasn't asking what I needed to do to have it changed.  I have already talked to the department that handles it (Bureau of Vital Statistics), and they said I needed a court order from the circuit court.  The circuit court said the only way I could get a court order for it was to file a lawsuit against the Alabama Bureau of Vital Statistics and go before a judge.

I guess I should call Vital Statistics again and clarify how the BC will look to onlookers once amended.  And find out what documentation the court asks for when you apply for a marriage certificate.

Thanks,
Amy

[ToriJo]

Thanks, Karen.  I hadn't thought of marriage.  I assume I would have to have it changed to marry a guy.

Yes, it will make it easier to have a heterosexual marriage.  But there is no guarantee that it will be sufficient, and it certainly won't be sufficient in the entire United States.

Some states use the birth certificate.  Most, however, use *other* criteria, or at least do when it goes into court.

Let me explain.  Basically, let's say someone made a mistake on someone's birth certificate.  They were born with XY chromosomes, typical male body parts.  But the State/hospital/etc screws up and issues an "F" on the birth certificate.  Let's also say the State DMV doesn't check "sex" on the birth certificate, but rather looks at the obviously male person standing in front of them and issues a DL to with an M.  Same for Social Security.  That person marries in a state where a DL is adequate proof of identity (not sex, just identity) and marries heterosexually (marries a woman, born with typical "female" chromosomes and body parts).  10 years later, the marriage is contested (child custody, wills, insurance settlement, who knows what else could cause this...).

Should the court say, "Well, the birth certificate said "F", so this marriage is invalid?  Of course they shouldn't - and I'd suspect (that said, I'm not a lawyer) that if adequate documentation is presented to show this person was "M", then the birth certificate would essentially get ignored.  After all, it's just one piece of evidence, and doesn't have any legal standing as stronger evidence (at least not in any jurisdiction that I know about).

So, what I'm saying is that an "M" or "F" on any government document doesn't in itself prove anything.  It may *help* to prove it, and it is certainly good to have all legal documents reflect your gender, so that they can't be used against you, but that is no gaurantee.  I know of no state that specifies what constitutes "Male" or "Female" (they don't say "The birth certificate is used to determine if someone is male" or anything similar).  Nor do the feds.

I guess I should call Vital Statistics again and clarify how the BC will look to onlookers once amended.  And find out what documentation the court asks for when you apply for a marriage certificate.

Just remember, on marriage, that presenting documentation does not make a marriage legal - even if that documentation is accepted by the clerk (or whoever).  An obvious example would be if I decided to have a polygamous marriage to second wife - if I didn't present the document indicating I was married, and I lied on the application (I say "never married"), and I marry in a state other than where I got married to my current wife, I would absolutely be issued a marriage license!  But it wouldn't be legal, regardless.  The sex requirement most states have is similar - you as a couple *have* to be "one male + one female" - nevermind what your documentation says, the *actual* state of your gender/sex has to be one male and one female, or it could be considered an invalid marriage (and you may even be subject to criminal penalties).

This just plain stinks because in almost all places, nobody has defined what a male or female is - not even the courts.  So it's basically up to the random judge that hears the case should your marriage ever be contested (think about things like life insurance - they'll have reason to contest it even if you don't).

So there is no safe heterosexual marriage with one post-transition partner in the US - no safe marriage that would be seen as valid in all 50 states.  Regardless of your documentation.

That said, I would think having the birth certificate, DL, Social Security record, private records at banks and employers, etc, all reflect your proper gender would make the argument much stronger that you are exactly who you say you are.

In the meantime, the shortest path to fixing this particular legal mess (made worse through DOMA, since prior to DOMA one state *had* to respect a marriage license issued in another - now they don't if they decide it is a homosexual marriage) is to make gay marriage legal in all 50 states, with DOMA repealed sooner rather than later.  It's ironic that heterosexuals need gay marriage to allow their heterosexual marriage to be recognized, but that's sadly the current state of the law as I understand it (not being a lawyer).

I hate to be a downer.  I'm married to a woman who wasn't always recognized as such, and we're in a heterosexual relationship and it boils my blood to think that in some areas of the US we would not be considered legally married should it ever be challenged.  Right now, it's only small pockets that would consider it an invalid marriage - most of the country it is truly legally undefined (it could go either way in a challenge), with some small pockets that would based on prior case law consider it valid.  At the end of the day, I say it's better to publicly and loudly proclaim my love for her and commitment to her, even if I risk it being declared illegal one day, than to not do that.  And I'd tell anyone else to do the same.  But I wouldn't want them to think that if certain documentation has the right letters on it, then they are safe from all possible challenge.  But I also would say that we are on the right side of history and it's only a matter of time before these concerns are eliminated.

Also, for what it's worth, I couldn't find my birth certificate before getting my marriage license.  They were fine in that state with a DL or passport.  But every state will be different.

So...I'd say amend it if you can, and, one day, when it is allowed, get it changed and reissued correctly.  Obviously if you don't have the resources to do this you may need to wait - very few people need to see your birth certificate).

[straycat]

So if you can only "amend" your BC, and it will still indicate you were born of the other sex, and all of your other documentation (i.e. driver's license, passport, etc.) are already changed, can anyone give me a good reason to have your BC changed when it takes so much effort (i.e. judge, court order, lots of money)?

I really would like to know any answers, 'cause right now I don't see the point.  If they would issue a new BC not reflecting my birth gender then I would jump through hoops and pay the money.

Thanks,
Amy

  Well in my state because of changes due to the REAL ID, act you must now present an original birth certificate every time you renew your driver's license.  If you have not had your birth certificate amended after transition here, you will need to present all your original documentation that was needed to change your name and gender on your driver's license (name change and surgeon's letter) each time you renew.  With an amended birth certificate you do not need that other supporting documentation and you don't have to go through explaining your special situation each time you renew so it is something I intend to do and the state vital records dept has told me the amended certificate will show only my new name and gender once the court order is provided.

  I think there is some confusion about what an amended birth certificate is and it probably varies by state.  My understanding is that when it is amended you are issued an original birth certificate indicating your current name and gender with all the other basic info (parents, birth date, birth place, etc) being the same.  The name and gender change is not indicated on the certificate you are issued to use.  Of course the state records still maintain that information, but normally no one but yourself or immediate family have the right to request that information.  It may state that it is an amended certificate, but I don't believe it will show details of changes.  However, every state makes their own rules about these things, so check with your birth state's vital records department to be sure of what they will give you.  Just to be clear about the term, by "original" I do not mean "The same one issued when you were born", I mean "A document that was printed and certified by the state vital records dept. and has not been altered or photocopied". I see varying usage of that term but in my experience "original" and "certified copy" are the same thing at the DMV, SS office, etc.

  As an example, prior to my transition, the birth certificate I had used all my life was already an amended original birth certificate which indicated my adopted parents names and my adopted name with no indication that those things had ever been changed.  Whenever I requested an copy of my original birth certificate from the state, I only used the "new" name in the request, and what they would send me was that "amended" version with no indication of the previous changes.  I only knew it was not the same as the one issued at my birth because after becoming an adult, my parents gave me copies of the adoption and name change documents.

[wheat thins are delicious]

Also in Alabama here.  I wonder, a quesiton for you actually.  Did you get your gender marker changed on your alabama driver's license before surgery?  and how.

[Arch]

  Well in my state because of changes due to the REAL ID, act you must now present an original birth certificate every time you renew your driver's license. 

I don't want to be obnoxious, but I'm skeptical that this is accurate information.

[Arch]

Amy, your birth state and mine seem to have the same amendment policy. That's why, for now at least, I'm not going to bother with the birth certificate. It would be a major PITA to fix my name change situation anyway, since I have no court order for that.

[straycat]

Well in my state because of changes due to the REAL ID, act you must now present an original birth certificate every time you renew your driver's license

I don't want to be obnoxious, but I'm skeptical that this is accurate information.

  No problem, I think I can clarify and explain a little better. In 2005, shortly after the federal Real ID act passed, Missouri changed the requirements for documents needed in order to obtain or renew driver licenses or state ID's.  I remember reports that this was in order to meet Real ID standards but I am aware some states are protesting some or all of Real ID including Missouri.

  Regardless of that, since July 2005 in Missouri there are additional documents needed when obtaining or renewing your drivers license. You need to show proof of residence and proof of name, date of birth, and place of birth. Prior to 2005, your expiring license was all you needed to renew.  With the new law, proof of residence can be a pay stub, mortgage statement, voter Id, utility bill, or something like that.  To satisfy the proof of name, date of birth, and place of birth, the only documents that can be used (for citizens) are a US birth certificate, US passport, certificate of citizenship or naturalization, or a US military ID together with a birth certificate.  There is an exception if you are over 65, but for most people, they will need a birth certificate issued by a state or local government.

  I know several people who were turned away when renewing their license because they didn't know about the new requirements and were not prepared.  One took what he had always thought was his birth certificate but was turned away because it was a hospital issued "souvenir" certificate.  Another person claims to be having trouble getting a certified birth certificate from his birth state and so has been driving without a license for a couple of years.  He's really stubborn though, I suspect he is just mad about having to do it and hasn't tried very hard.

I am working on getting a court order declaring my gender change to in order to amend my birth certificate. I discussed with the lawyer about using the fact that I may have to present a birth certificate more often to establish for the court a stronger need for me to have an amended birth certificate.  He seemed to think it could help but I need to save some money to get this project completed.

[Julie Marie]

A birth certificate isn't always the only accepted document for obtaining a marriage license.  Check with your state to see what they require.  In Illinois, the county in which I live states this:

Identification and proof of age are required of all persons. Any of the following documents will be accepted:

    * A valid U.S. driver's license.
    * A valid U.S. state identification card.
    * A valid U.S. passport.
    * A valid U.S. military identification card.

If you do not have any of the above forms of identification, then you must present two (2) of the following pieces of identification:

    * A certified copy of a birth certificate.
    * A baptismal record (the date of birth of the applicant must appear on this record).
    * A valid foreign passport.
    * U.S. naturalization papers.
    * A valid U.S. resident alien card.
    * A life insurance policy, which has been in effect for one (1) year (the applicant's date of birth must appear on the document).
    * All consulate identification cards. Affidavits are not acceptable.

Notice the birth certificate is not on the list of single documents you can present to obtain the license. 

When I went to change my SS documentation, they required I present an old ID showing the old name.  I had already changed my DL.  All I could think of was by birth certificate.  The SS agent told me, "We can't accept a birth certificate.  It's too easy to forge."

I don't think birth certificates are what they used to be in the area of validating documents. At least not in Illinois, or as far as some federal agencies are concerned.  For the individual, it's great to see the changes made, but for everyday use, like the agent said, "It's too easy to forge."

[Lisbeth]

  Well in my state because of changes due to the REAL ID, act you must now present an original birth certificate every time you renew your driver's license.

I don't want to be obnoxious, but I'm skeptical that this is accurate information.

That is what the Real ID act would require, but I live in a state that rebelled and said the Real ID act violated their state sovereignty.

[Arch]

That is what the Real ID act would require, but I live in a state that rebelled and said the Real ID act violated their state sovereignty.

Heh. Considering that a driver license is issued by the state, I'm not surprised.

[amy2003]

Also in Alabama here.  I wonder, a quesiton for you actually.  Did you get your gender marker changed on your alabama driver's license before surgery?  and how.

Hi Andy, no I didn't get it changed until after surgery.  I tried many years ago before surgery, but had no luck.  Once I had the letter from the surgeon, I went in person to the medical records office of the DOT in Montgomery.  (I thought it would go better in person, and I only had one original letter.)  I'm not sure what the building is called, but if you're familiar with Montgomery it's the building downtown behind the RSA Headquarters building.  It looks like it also houses a jail of some sort.  They were very nice and it only took about five minutes.

Amy

[ToriJo]

Real ID doesn't require a birth certificate or anything else other than a DL to renew a DL - but a state may comply with it in many different ways, and some, unfortunately, want you to prove citizenship on renewal (not that a birth certificate does that - you could have given up your citizenship, yet it is enough to prove your a citizen to most government officials).

One suggestion I'd make to people where a new birth certificate would be impossible and/or very expensive is to consider getting a passport in the proper gender if you meet the requirements.  A passport is almost always accepted everywhere a birth certificate is (including for DL renewal in Missouri).  And it won't expose your history every few years when you need to renew your DL - it's a one time hassle/embarrassment, and does not require a court order (it does require a physician's letter, but surgery is not required - the doctor needs to say you've had "appropriate clinical treatment" without any specific treatments needing to be mentioned; don't say "undergoing transition" or you'll only get a 2 year passport - just have the doctor say you've had appropriate clinical treatment).  Also, a passport is "government issued ID" so it's valid anywhere you need to identify yourself if for some reason your state is very backwards regarding driver's licenses.  The only downside is that it's not exactly cheap - but is cheaper than a lawyer if you're seeing a physician already.