how to tell transwomen from crossdressers

[Princess of Hearts]

I agree with Julia Serrano regarding ->-bleeped-<-s.*    Serrano's writes in essence that ->-bleeped-<-s possess what she calls a 'female subconscious sex' but that they are not fully aware of this.  Or they have an inkling but are overwhelmed with the thought of the emotional, social, physical and psychological implications of this.     I think that this is a very human and understandable reaction.    The person who doesn't feel great exhilaration and deep fear regarding transition hasn't thought about it sufficiently.

* I cannot stand the term 'crossdresser' is is so incredibly bland and lower-middle class.

[MarinaM]

Haha! Well...  I don't think they put a ton of thought into the term, and it is a serious sounding word.
As far as lower middle class bashing, I have retracted my ten foot pole (that's the tax bracket I grew up in).

[Devlyn]

That's the tax bracket I'm in! I'm not growing up, though.

[regan]

Now remember, TV's are TV because of sexual gratification and excitement and most, if not all, parents would have major issues with them being in a restroom with a young daughter....I know I would.

Why?

Actually it sounds like your confusing all TVs with Pedophiles.  I'm not going to claim that they're exclusive, but they're not one in the same - even if a closet case Republican Senator says they are.  Maybe, just maybe, its a chance to teach your daughter about what's appropriate to wear and what's not and how the attention she attracts to herself might not be the attention she wants to attract to herself.

Have children been molested in bathrooms?  There are a few cases, HOWEVER, not a single one involved a TV (or anyother member of the trans identifed community).  IN FACT, every case I'm aware of involved incidents between (cis)men and boys in the male bathrooms.  So your argument isn't an argument, its just paranoia.  If you're really that concerned go in the restroom with your child.

[jamie nicole]

Why?

Actually it sounds like your confusing all TVs with Pedophiles.  I'm not going to claim that they're exclusive, but they're not one in the same - even if a closet case Republican Senator says they are.  Maybe, just maybe, its a chance to teach your daughter about what's appropriate to wear and what's not and how the attention she attracts to herself might not be the attention she wants to attract to herself.

Have children been molested in bathrooms?  There are a few cases, HOWEVER, not a single one involved a TV (or anyother member of the trans identifed community).  IN FACT, every case I'm aware of involved incidents between (cis)men and boys in the male bathrooms.  So your argument isn't an argument, its just paranoia.  If you're really that concerned go in the restroom with your child.

that's not true at all, it would appear that you drew your own conclusion.  TV are "labled" as being ->-bleeped-<-s because they dress the way they do due to sexual excitement/gratification.  It's precisely one of the reasons why those who are TG are required to do a 1 year RLE.  I suggest you review the reputation you provided to my comment/opinion and see where it does not break any rules of this site.
The comment I left is my opinion and I certainly stand by it......they do not belong in a female restroom.

[regan]

that's not true at all, it would appear that you drew your own conclusion.  TV are "labled" as being ->-bleeped-<-s because they dress the way they do due to sexual excitement/gratification.  It's precisely one of the reasons why those who are TG are required to do a 1 year RLE.  I suggest you review the reputation you provided to my comment/opinion and see where it does not break any rules of this site.
The comment I left is my opinion and I certainly stand by it......they do not belong in a female restroom.

You are entitled to your opinion, however, as others have suggested, once the sexual gratification passes (draw your own conclusions) for the average TV, so does the desire to dress in the clothing - if that's true, I would highly doubt they would be in a women's bathroom in the first place.  If they're there to seek sexual gratification, yeah, then there are already laws to address that sort of thing.  Your opinion is harmful, at best.  Its the same old stereotype that has been dragged out in some form or fashion to marginalize the GLB T community time and time again.

So if we start making rules about non-gender conforming people and their use of the restrooms, do you volunteer to be the first to use the men's room?  When you're busy pointing fingers, remember fingers are pointing at you as well.

It's not so easy, is it?

[jamie nicole]

show me anywhere in my comment where I suggested that TV's are pedophiles.......but you cant.  It isnt any secret that the majority of the parents do not want the opposite sex in the same restroom as their children.

[jamie nicole]

Why?

Actually it sounds like your confusing all TVs with Pedophiles.  I'm not going to claim that they're exclusive, but they're not one in the same - even if a closet case Republican Senator says they are.  Maybe, just maybe, its a chance to teach your daughter about what's appropriate to wear and what's not and how the attention she attracts to herself might not be the attention she wants to attract to herself.

Have children been molested in bathrooms?  There are a few cases, HOWEVER, not a single one involved a TV (or anyother member of the trans identifed community).  IN FACT, every case I'm aware of involved incidents between (cis)men and boys in the male bathrooms.  So your argument isn't an argument, its just paranoia.  If you're really that concerned go in the restroom with your child.

again, you're drawing your own conclusions about the molestation (which I never said nor even hinted about). 

[regan]

show me anywhere in my comment where I suggested that TV's are pedophiles.......but you cant.  It isnt any secret that the majority of the parents do not want the opposite sex in the same restroom as their children.

So a mother should never take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa, because I see that happen frequently enough...

You still haven't answered the question, seeing as you're setting rules for bathroom use by non(birth)-gender conforming individuals, will you be the first to volunteer to use the men's bathroom?

[jamie nicole]

So a mother should never take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa, because I see that happen frequently enough...

You still haven't answered the question, seeing as you're setting rules for bathroom use by non(birth)-gender conforming individuals, will you be the first to volunteer to use the men's bathroom?

why would I use the mens bathroom when I have a vagina between my legs and my legal documents indicating F for my sex? No, I would not use a mans bathroom.
No, a mother should not take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa.
If a TV or CD identified as being female, then yes, they should use the female bathroom.............but they dont identify as being female which is why they should not use the female bathroom. does that answer your question?

[jamie nicole]

So a mother should never take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa, because I see that happen frequently enough...

You still haven't answered the question, seeing as you're setting rules for bathroom use by non(birth)-gender conforming individuals, will you be the first to volunteer to use the men's bathroom?

I am curious though, are you ->-bleeped-<- or a cross dresser?

[regan]

I am curious though, are you ->-bleeped-<- or a cross dresser?

Neither...

The point I'm trying to make is that as soon as you start singling out members of the community that are trans-identified or have a transgender past or whatever variation they choose to explain why they deviate from their gender assigned at birth for exclusion whether its from a bathroom, a concert, etc, where do you stop?  While we're busy fighting to protect our rights to use the bathroom of our gender, to the exclusion of people that don't identify as female, there's going to be someone else suggesting we have no more right to use the bathroom then they do.  How would we regulate it anyways, are we going to have to do a genitals check at the door?  Otherwise what happens when you misidentify a cis-woman as a TV?  For that matter where to the pre-ops and non-ops go?

Are you willing to take the risk?

Even if you establish a "no males" rule, what does the mother do with her young son?  Would it be better for her to take him to the men's room?  Where does he wait while she uses the bathroom?

[Silas]

I'd probably use "she/her" unless corrected -- I've crossdressed a little, but I hate being called a girl even "en femme". Really, it's all about personal preference.

Best thing to do: "What pronouns do you prefer?"
You could ask gender identity, but it tends to be a little irrelevant. I've met MTF women who preferred he/him/his and FTM guys who preferred she/her.

As for style choices, well, to each their own. I'm not sure if transwomen and crossdressers can be told apart specifically because of their mannerisms and outfit choices.

[jamie nicole]

Neither...

The point I'm trying to make is that as soon as you start singling out members of the community that are trans-identified or have a transgender past or whatever variation they choose to explain why they deviate from their gender assigned at birth for exclusion whether its from a bathroom, a concert, etc, where do you stop?  While we're busy fighting to protect our rights to use the bathroom of our gender, to the exclusion of people that don't identify as female, there's going to be someone else suggesting we have no more right to use the bathroom then they do.  How would we regulate it anyways, are we going to have to do a genitals check at the door?  Otherwise what happens when you misidentify a cis-woman as a TV?  For that matter where to the pre-ops and non-ops go?

Are you willing to take the risk?

Even if you establish a "no males" rule, what does the mother do with her young son?  Would it be better for her to take him to the men's room?  Where does he wait while she uses the bathroom?

but where in my comment did I ever imply that ->-bleeped-<-s were pedophiles?  I'm going to be completely honest with you regan, I resent the fact that you attached that pedophile label to my name or my comment because I never made that implication nor do I think that!!
It's no secret that the public greatly misunderstands us.  when it comes to restroom issues (and it's always first and foremost), the public is becoming understandable when it comes to transgender, because they identify as the opposite sex and for the most part, do not go out in public until they begin their real life experience.
when it comes to ->-bleeped-<-s and crossdressers, they do not identify as being the opposite sex and likewise, are identified by the public as being their birth sex and should use the appropriate restroom.  that is my opinion and I stand behind it.  and when it does come down to gender identity legislation, there will no doubt be exclusions for TV and CD when it comes to the restroom, and rightfully so.  I also feel that a transgender should not use the opposite restroom until they begin living full time.

[Annah]

In my opinion when we start putting down CDs for using the women's bathroom or start accusing them for the transsexual woes, then we begin to stoop to the level of an ignorant society who does the same accusations against us as a transsexual people.

I've seen some trans who like to vilify crossdressers and, for the most part, their accusations or finger pointing are eerily similiar to what uninformed people do to us. To say one would not let their daughter use the same bathroom as a CD is just as an inherently destructive thought pattern that uninformed society shows against us as trans. To say crossdressers are only n it for sex and therefor their using of the female bathroom would imply a similar connotation is also eerily similar to what uninformed society says about the trans people.

There is a joke with some truth behind it regarding CDs and TSs. "What is the difference between a crossdresser and transsexual?" Answer: Three years.

We seem to be quick to point fingers at CDs and blame them for equal rights setbacks or how people view us. If we are not careful we become arrogant and spiteful over any gender varient person who does not fit our mold of what is a real girl or boy and what is not.

I find it ironic that we as a transsexual people cry for equal rights and to be treated humanly, but then some of us will turn around and treat other gender variants with just as much vitriol as those we try so hard to fight against.

[tekla]

In my opinion when we start putting down CDs for using the women's bathroom or start accusing them for the transsexual woes, then we begin to stoop to the level of an ignorant society who does the same accusations against us as a transsexual people.

Even worse, because it proves that 'education' is worthless.

 

[Annah]

but where in my comment did I ever imply that ->-bleeped-<-s were pedophiles?  I'm going to be completely honest with you regan, I resent the fact that you attached that pedophile label to my name or my comment because I never made that implication nor do I think that!!

In all fairness, when I read your earlier statement, I thought the same thing. To say you would never let your daughter in the same restroom as a crossdresser because they dress for sexual excitement leaves little room to the imagination to what you meant by that statement.

[Annah]

In my opinion when we start putting down CDs for using the women's bathroom or start accusing them for the transsexual woes, then we begin to stoop to the level of an ignorant society who does the same accusations against us as a transsexual people.

Even worse, because it proves that 'education' is worthless.

Or it shows education can be wrapped in a tattered robe of selfishness. "I want these rights so give them to me, but these people over here....no thank you."

It's sad really.

[jamie nicole]

here is my thought pattern and I'll try to put it as simple as I can:

TG/TV/CD should all be afforded the same protections in anti discrimination legislation as everyone else.  When it comes to the restroom, TV/CD should use the restroom that their sex is because they do not identify as being the opposite sex.  If it was a male CD/TV, yes, if I had a daughter I would have issues with them using the same restroom (as well as any other man).

[jamie nicole]

In all fairness, when I read your earlier statement, I thought the same thing. To say you would never let your daughter in the same restroom as a crossdresser because they dress for sexual excitement leaves little room to the imagination to what you meant by that statement.

imagine a young girl in a stall in the bathroom doing #1 or #2 (lol).....the stall next to her is a TV pleasuring himself because he likes the way his pantyhose feel on his legs........same argument could go the other way as well in the mens bathroom or a female in the next stall........again, if they dont identify as the opposite sex, they should use the appropriate restroom for the sex that is listed on their drivers license or ID card.