Recent Ruling Supports Inmate’s Sex-Change Claim

[Korlee]

I assume you have never been wrongly convicted of a crime, and have not been beaten/raped by prison guards for it? (not to mention losing your house and job)

You should think of things from their point of view. It is not a pleasant thing.

Are you aware that those who are convicted of a non-violent "crime" (which itself is an absurd concept, but society is absurd and our system reflects that) are, after released, far more likely to commit violence?

American prisons break good people. It is why the repeat offender rate is so much lower in countries like Norway where prisons are humane. If you treat people like animals, they will become animals.

Prison slavery is wrong because it puts honest people out of work. There are plenty of good unemployed people who would love to pick up trash on the roads. The economy is bad enough as it is.

I've spent my whole life at the brunt of government services as has my father.  So don't you dare speak to me like you know crap about it.  Your counter is nothing more then at best a strawman defense that tries to make the other person feel guilty while backing up none of your claims with evidence or real life experiences.

The abuses of prison guards are actually more inline with getting them cigs for cash, etc.  A corrupt cop is generally more out for money then pointlessly beating prisons while on the cameras littered in most prisons these days.  You get the cigs, go to the bathroom, take prisoner cash left there, exchange cash for cigs, etc.  The BS you are talking about is so far and between there are no words for how retarded it is for you to even bring it up.

The people who put forth the ideas you have put forth usually are the guilty parties or the lawyers there of because they know people will buy into it.  After all if enough buy into it they get sympathy and it is possible then to get away with it or get on parole.  There have been loads of independent studies or groups as noted already that prove you wrong daily.


You know who really breaks the people in prison?  Not the guards, the system, none of that.  It is the other prisoners who side with their gangs, race, etc.  The nasty disgusting people inside that do unthinkable things to each other.  The people who uphold the system are not to blame but those who broke the law already are to blame.



Seriously?  You really believe that?  Even when most highways don't get cleaned or have groups that volunteer for free?  So putting them to work on jobs that NOBODY WANTS TO DO?  Some how makes massive amounts of people unemployed?  Not the gigantic corporations sending jobs away, the government pissing away our taxes, or any of the above?  No.... it is the use of the labor of people who have wronged others... the people the law says should be repaying a debt to society for the harm they caused... instead of draining our wallets like they do now...


So.. is there room under that rock you live under?

[Devlyn]

You're all off topic and not being solution oriented. We can agree the death penalty would be more appropriate in this case than SRS. Now, I live less than an hour from that prison, and the night before surgery, I intend to break INTO the prison, kill the scumbag, hide the body, and get a good nights sleep before my "renovation." 

[Epi]

I've spent my whole life at the brunt of government services as has my father.  So don't you dare speak to me like you know crap about it.  Your counter is nothing more then at best a strawman defense that tries to make the other person feel guilty while backing up none of your claims with evidence or real life experiences.

The abuses of prison guards are actually more inline with getting them cigs for cash, etc.  A corrupt cop is generally more out for money then pointlessly beating prisons while on the cameras littered in most prisons these days.  You get the cigs, go to the bathroom, take prisoner cash left there, exchange cash for cigs, etc.  The BS you are talking about is so far and between there are no words for how retarded it is for you to even bring it up.

Seriously?  You really believe that?  Even when most highways don't get cleaned or have groups that volunteer for free?  So putting them to work on jobs that NOBODY WANTS TO DO?  Some how makes massive amounts of people unemployed?  Not the gigantic corporations sending jobs away, the government pissing away our taxes, or any of the above?  No.... it is the use of the labor of people who have wronged others... the people the law says should be repaying a debt to society for the harm they caused... instead of draining our wallets like they do now...


So.. is there room under that rock you live under?

Yelling at person gets your point across even less.

In most states; where they don't use prison chain gangs still, when you see someone out along the side of the road picking up trash they paid the courts about $35/day to do that instead of staying in county jail.

There is no smoking in prison or jail, despite inmates DO manage to get cigarettes, it's not an item you can obtain from commissary.  Inmates also DO NOT have cash on them as it's not allowed (any visitor who gives an inmate cash is subject to arrest.)  What inmates do have is a jail account which funds can be deposited into that they can use to buy items from commissary.

Police on the streets are more brutal than prison guards as there's no cameras recording their behavior and actions (maybe in Mexico the cops are out for money more; they call it la mordida.)  Also, whenever you have an unruly inmate and have to do a cell extraction or have to restrain them, there is ALWAYS an officer present with a handheld camera recording (for liability purposes) in addition to a nurse being present to check the inmates after they have been placed in a restraint chair.  An officer who uses excessive force while performing their duties will have to face a disciplinary board; while the results usually aren't made public, the inmate or the family of (if it resulted in a wrongful death) have the right to subpoena the DOJ/DOC for that video tape and use it as evidence. 

It's a lot different on the inside, if officers don't show some level of respect to the inmates they best grow eyes in the back of their head or transfer to a desk job.  If anything, prison guards and jailers are also therapists and counselors to these inmates and it's a hell of a job.









I hope this offers some clarity for everyone as how the DOJ and DOC operate their facilities.

[Korlee]

You act like they care what is allowed and not allowed.  They do smoke all the time in prison and it is as simple as having a single person follow/watch for a guard.  That is a fact not an opinion.  Also they do have cash amongst other things even in the low security prisons.  What is on the list of -allowed- is meaningless considering how easy it is to smuggle things in.  There are even many inmates with cellphones as a rampant problem.

A book about prison rules is only useful for starting a fire when it comes down to inmates following it.  They know the loopholes and abuse them daily.  It isn't hard to do in an American prison at all.

[SandraJane]

Tweet! Some focus here, back to the article in question... Kosilek's lawyers are trying to use a recent ruling  concerning another Transgendered Inmate that was denied HRT in prison.

[Epi]

You act like they care what is allowed and not allowed.  They do smoke all the time in prison and it is as simple as having a single person follow/watch for a guard.  That is a fact not an opinion.  Also they do have cash amongst other things even in the low security prisons.  What is on the list of -allowed- is meaningless considering how easy it is to smuggle things in.  There are even many inmates with cellphones as a rampant problem.

A book about prison rules is only useful for starting a fire when it comes down to inmates following it.  They know the loopholes and abuse them daily.  It isn't hard to do in an American prison at all.

There's about 5% truth in what you see on TV in shows like Lockup: Raw, etc.  I would consider most of the officers shown on those shows not only to be incompetent, but downright negligent in the performance of their duties.

Depending on the facility (if there's a lot of outdoor access) some officers do overlook inmates smoking cigarettes, but for the most part, no, they don't.  You'll face disciplinary action for having cigarettes, prisoners and officers included.  There's some drugs and cash (more drugs than cash) in jails/prisons, but if they don't keep it hidden and moving, it gets confiscated and they lose privileges.  (Dogs can smell the darnedest things.)  It's difficult to hide when you're under the influence of drugs in a correctional facility; if the inmates smart, they get "high" at night when everyone's in their cells.  Maybe in some poor, dilapidated pokey down south inmates freely get away with cellphones, but not in most properly built jails and prisons (the walls are 3-4 feet thick, there's no service getting in OR out, in addition to them installing and using cell phone jammers, real nifty.)

It's also not that easy to smuggle stuff in, if you're getting housed they do a full-strip search, if you're visiting and have any physical contact, the visitor gets thoroughly searched before even being allowed into the visitor room.  If you manage to get a little amount of drugs into the jail through cheeking it, it's usually traded for commissary, not cash.

I would say in facilities (more state run prisons than county jails) that have the highest amount of problems, it's most likely because the officers are using their position to make a profit.  Things on the inside cost a lot more on the outside.  This is just the way it is, but if you have any doubts I recommend you take a tour of your local jail.  They'll tell you the same thing, but I advise you change your attitude when you speak to them, as they won't take kindly to arrogance.






On another note, if Kosilek can afford private counsel, he can pay his own HRT.  If not, I'm sure a prisoner with a little moral integrity than Kosilek (assuming that Kosilek is in general population) will take a disliking to this and deal with it accordingly.

[tekla]

but I advise you change your attitude when you speak to them, as they won't take kindly to arrogance.

They are not going to take kindly to you so long as your in a uniform, and it's not the one the inmates are wearing.  You're a screw.  Nothing more.

[Epi]

They are not going to take kindly to you so long as your in a uniform, and it's not the one the inmates are wearing.  You're a screw.  Nothing more.

If you're respectful to inmates, they're respectful to you.  If you treat them poorly, they'll show you no respect.  There are rules everyone has to abide by, officers included.  Just because someone is incarcerated doesn't mean they're incapable of respecting others or not entitled to respect from others.

[Keaira]

If that murderer gets free SRS it better become law to offer it for us too! That person is in jail as a punishment for their crime, not to stay at a resort and health spa! Frankly I have no faith in the justice system. Cops are not out there to Protect and Serve anymore. they are there to keep the population in order and make money for the Government.

[SandraJane]

Is this thread now about "Shawshank Screws" or the article?

[Shana A]

Is this thread now about "Shawshank Screws" or the article?

Things have a way of veering pretty far from the original topic around here sometimes! With any luck it will come back though 

Z

[tekla]

Well let me welcome the person to the woman's side of the prison.  And to prove there is no hard feelings, let me, out of my own pocket, put a transcript of the trial in the library so everyone can read it.  How's that?

[Korlee]

There's about 5% truth in what you see on TV in shows like Lockup: Raw, etc.  I would consider most of the officers shown on those shows not only to be incompetent, but downright negligent in the performance of their duties.

Depending on the facility (if there's a lot of outdoor access) some officers do overlook inmates smoking cigarettes, but for the most part, no, they don't.  You'll face disciplinary action for having cigarettes, prisoners and officers included.  There's some drugs and cash (more drugs than cash) in jails/prisons, but if they don't keep it hidden and moving, it gets confiscated and they lose privileges.  (Dogs can smell the darnedest things.)  It's difficult to hide when you're under the influence of drugs in a correctional facility; if the inmates smart, they get "high" at night when everyone's in their cells.  Maybe in some poor, dilapidated pokey down south inmates freely get away with cellphones, but not in most properly built jails and prisons (the walls are 3-4 feet thick, there's no service getting in OR out, in addition to them installing and using cell phone jammers, real nifty.)

It's also not that easy to smuggle stuff in, if you're getting housed they do a full-strip search, if you're visiting and have any physical contact, the visitor gets thoroughly searched before even being allowed into the visitor room.  If you manage to get a little amount of drugs into the jail through cheeking it, it's usually traded for commissary, not cash.

I would say in facilities (more state run prisons than county jails) that have the highest amount of problems, it's most likely because the officers are using their position to make a profit.  Things on the inside cost a lot more on the outside.  This is just the way it is, but if you have any doubts I recommend you take a tour of your local jail.  They'll tell you the same thing, but I advise you change your attitude when you speak to them, as they won't take kindly to arrogance.






On another note, if Kosilek can afford private counsel, he can pay his own HRT.  If not, I'm sure a prisoner with a little moral integrity than Kosilek (assuming that Kosilek is in general population) will take a disliking to this and deal with it accordingly.

I've had people who were close to me go to jail and arrive back out in both medium, high, and work camps in the state.  These are things they DID!  Not some bs report or TV show.  These are first hand accounts of real people.  Now if you want to poke?  Nearly all city units have a cam on the dash these days to avoid liability issues and your counters read like you watched a documentary then posted the bs from it here.

Real life trumps worthless lil books 'n' shows.

[Epi]

What I don't understand is if he can afford private counselor, why he can't pay for HRT and SRS himself?  A decent criminal attorney charges $2500 each day they appear in court on your behalf, if he's paying that, he can pay for other things.

$2500/day
$250/hour for paralegal work
.25/mile for travel
all court costs and filing fees

I think he has enough money to treat his entire block to SRS.

I've had people who were close to me go to jail and arrive back out in both medium, high, and work camps in the state.  These are things they DID!  Not some bs report or TV show.  These are first hand accounts of real people.  Now if you want to poke?  Nearly all city units have a cam on the dash these days to avoid liability issues and your counters read like you watched a documentary then posted the bs from it here.

Real life trumps worthless lil books 'n' shows.

I thought you had "spent your whole life at the brunt of government services" as your father had?  Whatever that means.

It's very common for inmates to play up that "lifestyle" and exaggerate inside and outside of jail.

Dash cams are not in most patrol cars, maybe for a few of the newer units and state patrols in heavy areas, but it's not as common as it used to be.  It costs $$$, departments don't have that.  (Nor the money to pay-out to individuals whose civil rights they have violated.)  The cars that do have them installed are turned on and off at the officers convenience, so not much good for John Q. Public.

Never found any cash, found drugs in small quantities but not that often.  The biggest issue in correctional facilities is gangs and after that it's the county jails inability to put ICE holds on undocumented aliens who have been arrested for misdemeanors.  I'm sure you already knew that though, since your paroled friends tell you everything that goes on inside the DOC.

It's your right to believe whatever and whomever you want, but you could have a little class if you're going to accuse someone of vocalizing what you consider to be propaganda.  You won't learn anything in life if you dismiss everything because you heard otherwise from someone else.  "Now do I want to poke?"  I don't need to poke, I'm quite happy with the reality of things, but it seems you're unable to distinguish between fact and fiction.

[Ann Onymous]

What I don't understand is if he can afford private counselor, why he can't pay for HRT and SRS himself?  A decent criminal attorney charges $2500 each day they appear in court on your behalf, if he's paying that, he can pay for other things.

$2500/day
$250/hour for paralegal work
.25/mile for travel
all court costs and filing fees

You overestimate what MOST defense attorneys charge.  Almost everyone I know charges flat fee, although there will be an expense retainer against which costs or travel is billed against (and mileage is at roughly 55 cents a mile under current IRS guidelines). 

For the rare instance that we do trial work, we have a flat fee that covers a disposition resulting prior to trial plus an additional sum if the case goes to trial.  Time spent by paralegals is not billed separately. 

The daily and staff clock really comes into play on civil work though...

That being said...I do not disagree with the premise that if one can manage retained counsel, then they have funds to deal with their own medical. 

It's very common for inmates to play up that "lifestyle" and exaggerate inside and outside of jail.

Do bad things happen on the other side of the fence?  Sure.  Are they daily occurren.ces?  No.  Is every incident a worst-case scenario?  Not just no, but hell no.  And in that regard, I would concur that a lot of people exagerrate what goes on inside the walls..

[Epi]

You overestimate what MOST defense attorneys charge.  Almost everyone I know charges flat fee, although there will be an expense retainer against which costs or travel is billed against (and mileage is at roughly 55 cents a mile under current IRS guidelines). 

For the rare instance that we do trial work, we have a flat fee that covers a disposition resulting prior to trial plus an additional sum if the case goes to trial.  Time spent by paralegals is not billed separately. 

The daily and staff clock really comes into play on civil work though...

That being said...I do not disagree with the premise that if one can manage retained counsel, then they have funds to deal with their own medical. 

Do bad things happen on the other side of the fence?  Sure.  Are they daily occurren.ces?  No.  Is every incident a worst-case scenario?  Not just no, but hell no.  And in that regard, I would concur that a lot of people exagerrate what goes on inside the walls..

Whatever the retainer was years ago when they originally went to trial I'm sure has already been spent.  A flat fee would be for a shut and closed case, got a DUI?  Ah, call so-and-so, they handle them all the time, and only charge a flat fee.  Now, if you were going to take that to court, they'd want a trial retainer and after that was exhausted, they'd want their daily court appearance fee to be paid.  I don't know what law firm you work for but it sounds like there's not that many experienced individuals working there.  Here at the county court level an experienced criminal attorney will cost you, I do think it's a bit high, but you get what you pay for (which is damn good representation.)  The higher the court, the more money the attorney wants to appear.  An attorney isn't going to charge the same amount to appear in federal court that they do for county court and a DMV hearing.  If they did, I wouldn't hire them, all they're going to be able to guarantee you is a large bill and jail time.

This inmate can afford to pay their own SRS and if they can't, they should be using a court appointed attorney.  Being that he's/she's a ward of the government, I don't understand why he/she doesn't raise the suggestion himself/herself that he/she be allowed to transition on his/her own dime and transferred into protective custody.  I can only assume they he/she doesn't want to spend his/her own money because he wants to keep his/her/she's nest-egg intact for when he's released from prison.  Last I recall when you try to take something for your own personal gain by means of intentional deception it was fraud, why should this be any different?  If this inmate isn't happy with the situation they're currently in, maybe they shouldn't have killed their spouse?   

When a child steals candy from a store, we don't reward that child with more candy.  We talk to them, explain that's not right thing to do.  Kosilek is a child who has never been properly disciplined.  It seems to me that Kosilek feels that he's/she's entitled to this.  Well, they're not.  Inmates aren't fed enough, jails are crowded, plenty of individuals with serious medical conditions don't receive adequate care.  Kosilek should be treated as everyone else, put him/her in general population.  I'm sure the other inmates will welcome Kosilek warmly, or not.




Do bad things happen on the other side of the fence?  Yes.  Daily?  Yes, in varying degrees.  Is every incident a worst-case scenario?  No, but you have to plan for that possibility.  If we believed everything inmates said, there wouldn't be any inmates.  "Everyone in jail/prison is innocent."  It's like running a dangerous daycare, where you can't let most of the kids interact with each other.  I just don't let Billy and the other little brats get the upper hand.  10pm is bed-time, they can whine all they want, but I'm turning the lights off.

[Ann Onymous]

Whatever the retainer was years ago when they originally went to trial I'm sure has already been spent.  A flat fee would be for a shut and closed case, got a DUI?  Ah, call so-and-so, they handle them all the time, and only charge a flat fee.  Now, if you were going to take that to court, they'd want a trial retainer and after that was exhausted, they'd want their daily court appearance fee to be paid.  I don't know what law firm you work for but it sounds like there's not that many experienced individuals working there.  Here at the county court level an experienced criminal attorney will cost you, I do think it's a bit high, but you get what you pay for (which is damn good representation.)  The higher the court, the more money the attorney wants to appear.  An attorney isn't going to charge the same amount to appear in federal court that they do for county court and a DMV hearing.  If they did, I wouldn't hire them, all they're going to be able to guarantee you is a large bill and jail time.

When I say flat fee, I don't mean everyone walking in the door pays the same amount.  I mean we assign a fee of $X K for a particular service.  Most of the work we do is post-conviction and it is usually a $12K minimum entering the door, with some services moving up to a $35-40K minimum.  And we do occasionally quote what DeGuerin once referred to as a 'go away' fee...which some people will pay anyhow.

And you overestimate how quickly the expense account is burned through...for criminal work, you are not billing by the hour.  The fee is often broken down into two flat categories...work up through a trial setting (ie. you pay one amount for disposition vis a vis the plea process and work that moves to a trial setting (ie. the case is docketed for trial and a jury seated to hear evidence and render a verdict).  Appellate work would be another fee entirely in most cases...although we have had a few that we did the appeal at no cost because the trial was so fundamentally flawed. 

The manner in which we bill is consistent with other firms in Houston, Dallas, Austin and other points throughout the State...

[Epi]

When I say flat fee, I don't mean everyone walking in the door pays the same amount.  I mean we assign a fee of $X K for a particular service.  Most of the work we do is post-conviction and it is usually a $12K minimum entering the door, with some services moving up to a $35-40K minimum.  And we do occasionally quote what DeGuerin once referred to as a 'go away' fee...which some people will pay anyhow.

And you overestimate how quickly the expense account is burned through...for criminal work, you are not billing by the hour.  The fee is often broken down into two flat categories...work up through a trial setting (ie. you pay one amount for disposition vis a vis the plea process and work that moves to a trial setting (ie. the case is docketed for trial and a jury seated to hear evidence and render a verdict).  Appellate work would be another fee entirely in most cases...although we have had a few that we did the appeal at no cost because the trial was so fundamentally flawed. 

The manner in which we bill is consistent with other firms in Houston, Dallas, Austin and other points throughout the State...

You should move out this way and bring your co-workers, lots of people here would gladly like to not have to pay an arm and leg for representation... me included.

[tekla]

once referred to as a 'go away' fee...which some people will pay anyhow.

We do something similar, slightly more colorful name, but I'm sure the results are the same, its' the worst.  It sucks from the moment they say 'yes' and you realize that your stuck with it now, and you also know its' going to keep on sucking long after its over.

[Keaira]

Both of my In-Law's were Guards at the Pendleton Reformatory here in Indiana and I work with another former Guard. I've certainly never heard anything that would suggest it was like a battle-royale in there, or that life is hell. Heck, quite a few prisoners used to tell my Mother-in-law that if a riot broke out,  they would grab her, and put her in a cell. Not as payback, but to protect her from the really bad criminals. And there is a code among prisoners too. Child Molesters are generally seen as the worst scum.