which restroom?

[JungianZoe]

What about the rights of the people who are in the bathroom?

Unless I'm walking in with clothespins and corks, they're free to relieve themselves in any manner they see fit.

[Steph]

based on that logic, trans people would be kicked out the bathroom right alongside the crossdressers.

You also have to take into account the rights of the person wanting to use the bathroom.

Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance.  I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.

[tekla]

I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.

yeah, one groups says they are one thing, while the other groupsays they are something else.  But beyond self-labeling, there is not exactly a lot to go on, and at the point where all the CDs are shoved to the side, what's to stop them from self-IDing as something else?

[Steph]

I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.

yeah, one groups says they are one thing, while the other groupsays they are something else.  But beyond self-labeling, there is not exactly a lot to go on, and at the point where all the CDs are shoved to the side, what's to stop them from self-IDing as something else?

Very true.  What I'm getting at is wether you label yourself as TS or CD one needs to be very prudent when venturing into washrooms.  If you pass then no problem, who the heck is going to be the wiser.  It's when folks of either group, CDs who don't pass or TS just starting out (so-to-speak) don't expect the general public to accept you just because there are laws in place that say you have the right to be there.  Usually there aren't many humans rights lawyers stationed at washroom doors.

[Susan Kay]

If a person is in any restroom to achieve sexual gratification of any type - they are in the wrong place totally. Objections and reporting to management/police is very appropriate, unless it's that type of establishment. If it is, why are you there and are you wrong in objecting?

If a person is in any restroom labeled closest to their gender identity/presentation for the purpose of bodily elimination, cleanliness, make-up adjustment and possibly girly gossip, they are in the right place. Anyone objecting, verbally confronting or physically assaulting any other person there is wrong and reporting to management/police is very appropriate.

In spite of authoritarian removal of restroom stall doors, personal privacy should be of the highest priority. Why you are in the restroom is your business, not mine.

Susan Kay

[Susan Kay]

One more thing - I spent my life being labeled; gender, sports interest and skill, weight, politics, and every other thing a person has as part of themselves. While our support group is for transgendered only, that is for a group comfort level, including several youth. Our exception is for "questioning". Buried in the above comments is one or more threads alluding to the fact that most transexuals have exhibited behavior that can be labeled as cross dressing. How many of cross dressers are actually transgendered? I'm not ready to pound on a "cross dresser" who may actually be trans gendered.

Susan Kay

[tekla]

The reason the stall doors were pulled was D-R-U-G-S.

TS just starting out (so-to-speak)

I see lots of TS persons who a decade or more after they transition can be clocked a block away.  Genetics can not always be overcome with chemicals and surgery, and for a lot of the girls a lack of social skills have not helped, as they don't mimic the 'right' gestures in the correct way.  And really w/o a full physical search, how do you tell?

And we have a lot of people on these boards who say they are TS, and demand all those rights, but they have never seen any kind of doctor, never been on hormones, never had surgery.  But call them men in a dress and there will be the devil to pay.

How many of cross dressers are actually transgendered?
According to the accepted terminology - all of them.  According to the recent fights, many of the TS persons do not think they are TG.

[jamie nicole]

Regardless of whether the person is a male or female CD/TV the fact remains that no matter how they present in public they are still male or female, it does not give them the right to invade the privacy of others. Doing so is foolhardy and exposes those individuals to prosecution etc, etc.  It matters not that cases of assault, molestation, and sexual interference in washrooms may be few and far between, even blown out of proportion, what matters is the fact that it is hard for society in general to accept opposite sexes in gendered washrooms.  Until then use unisex or family washrooms.

hmmm interesting......

[Steph]

One more thing - I spent my life being labeled; gender, sports interest and skill, weight, politics, and every other thing a person has as part of themselves. While our support group is for transgendered only, that is for a group comfort level, including several youth. Our exception is for "questioning". Buried in the above comments is one or more threads alluding to the fact that most transexuals have exhibited behavior that can be labeled as cross dressing. How many of cross dressers are actually transgendered? I'm not ready to pound on a "cross dresser" who may actually be trans gendered.

Susan Kay

Unfortunately Transgendered is the accepted Umbrella Term that encompasses TS/CD/TV/Intersex/Androgyne etc.  I think you meant to say "...who may actually be transsexual"

[jamie nicole]

Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance.  I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.

be careful Steph........I got smited several times over this!

[Steph]

be careful Steph........I got smited several times over this!

Hmm... so it seems.

[Annah]

Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance.  I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's.

Yes I do know the difference between TS and CDs. I also know that 10 years ago people were attacking us because we used the female bathrooms. Now, some TS are doing the same thing against CDs when all they want to do is pee in a toilet like us. If you feel comfortable pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom be my guest. I would never do it. It's unethical and it's unsafe. And to presume they are only in there to commit to lewd and sexual acts just because they are a crossdresser is just rather poor stereotyping.

Oh how ironic our little cliques have become. So ironic that we are finger pointing at CDs as if they have done an immoral thing by peeing in a female bathroom when, at the same time, we as trans people fight for our very own rights to pee in the female bathroom.  For a group of people who fight so hard to eliminate old relic definition of how people identify us, we sure are quick to forget these struggles when it comes to putting down Crossdressers.

It's almost like "oh we're transsexuals.....crossdressers? pff. They're weird." And totally forgetting that the vast majority of all transsexuals started out at crossdressing in one form or another before they discovered who they truly are.

It's sad and tragic.

I'm kinda done with this thread. I've said my peace and at least I know that I embrace a crossdresser just as much as any other gender fluid or other gender related person.

Blessings,

[jamie nicole]

Yes I do know the difference between TS and CDs. I also know that 10 years ago people were attacking us because we used the female bathrooms. Now, some TS are doing the same thing against CD. If you feel comfortable pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom be my guest. I would never do it. It's unethical.

Oh how ironic our little cliques have become. So ironic that we are finger pointing at CDs as if they have done an immoral thing by peeing in a female bathroom when, at the same time, we as trans people fight for our very own rights to pee in the female bathroom.  For a group of people who fight so hard to eliminate old relic definition of how people identify us, we sure are quick to forget these struggles when it comes to putting down Crossdressers.

Shameful.

what the hell does ethics have anything to do with it? lol  unethical?  nobody is pointing fingers at anyone.  do CD/TV identify as the opposite sex?  No, they do not.  Do they live 24/7 as the opposite sex?  No, they do not. 
therefore, I, and many others, believe they should be using the restroom according to their sex and not their appearance.  If you argue otherwise, and you have, you might as well argue that anyone (non TG/TS/CD/TV included) should be able to use which ever restroom they want regardless of appearance.
I think you have a great misunderstanding of the FUNDAMENTAL difference between transsexual and transvestite/crossdresser!

[tekla]

difference between transgender and transvestite/crossdresser!

You're not using the words right.  Which of course, totally defeats whatever argument you were trying to make.

[jamie nicole]

difference between transgender and transvestite/crossdresser!

You're not using the words right.  Which of course, totally defeats whatever argument you were trying to make.

please elaborate upon your thought

[tekla]

As Steph correctly sated above: ... Transgendered is the accepted Umbrella Term that encompasses TS/CD/TV/Intersex/Androgyne etc.

[Steph]

Yes I do know the difference between TS and CDs. I also know that 10 years ago people were attacking us because we used the female bathrooms. Now, some TS are doing the same thing against CDs when all they want to do is pee in a toilet like us. If you feel comfortable pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom be my guest. I would never do it. It's unethical and it's unsafe. And to presume they are only in there to commit to lewd and sexual acts just because they are a crossdresser is just rather poor stereotyping.

Just to be clear...  A CD is a male or female who dresses in cloths of the opposite gender for whatever reason; sexual gratification; feeling of well being etc.  TS is a condition in which a person identifies with a physical sex different from the one that they were born with or assigned in cases where ambiguity of the child's sex organs led to assigning them a physical sex.

I have never stated or advocated "pushing a CD who is presenting female out of a female bathroom into the men's bathroom"  I have said is " It's when folks of either group, CDs who don't pass or TS just starting out (so-to-speak) don't expect the general public to accept you just because there are laws in place that say you have the right to be there.  Usually there aren't many humans rights lawyers stationed at washroom doors."

[jamie nicole]

you're correct.  transgender is the accepted umbrella term however, some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.

[tekla]

some prefer to use transgender in lieu of transsexual as well.

Then they would be wrong.  Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and options, they are not entitled to their own unique vocabulary.  Any landlubber can (and frequently does) confuse 'ship' and 'boat' it doesn't change the fact that they are two different things, and confusing the vocabulary still doesn't change the physics.

[Susan Kay]

Yep we have the right to use the washroom of our gender, not our appearance.  I assume you are aware of the difference between TS and CD's. 

I guess I wasn't sufficiently aware.

You're not using the words right.  Which of course, totally defeats whatever argument you were trying to make. 

Unintentional misuse of words "totally defeats" an argument? How about defeating an argument with information and a logical counter-argument rather than a language tutorial? I'm sure my arguments are not anywhere close to irrefutable. In the future perhaps I'd best use the word trans to convey reference to all groups so as to avoid being "totally defeated" by my own misworded arguments.

This is part of the problem. Why should it be the womans responsibility to deal with it when these are supposed to be gender segregated bathrooms.

We all know men's sex drive causes them to think about sex quite often. If womens only space is removed whats to stop men from harassing women in their private moments. Whats to stop a man from following a girl hes attracted to straight into the bathroom claiming hes merely expressing his gender preference. Women everywhere are not going to agree with this. 

It is always each person's responsibility to deal with their problems, whether real or perceived. It's messy, unpleasant and often ineffective, but please, keep big brother out of the restroom door monitor business.
It's (mostly) a public restroom, not your private bathroom or personal meditation site. The law exists to deal with harassment and molestation there just as anywhere.

Susan Kay