Pregnant transmen

[sneakersjay]

I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

Just because you hate certain body parts doesn't mean they can't ever be used.  I was 10 when I discovered I had a 'hole' down there.  I wanted to vomit.  Then I had sex ed in school and learned what was in that hole and what it did every month and wanted to vomit.  Then puberty hit and I was horrified, disgusted, and did vomit.  I still wanted to be a parent, though, and I figured if I had to put up with that disgusting thing it might as well be of some use.

Hated those parts and threw a party when they were gone.  Icing on the cake was having the hole closed up.  Pure joy.

Ladies have also used their parts and created kids; doesn't mean they really enjoyed doing so (though they could, sex is pleasurable!).  Enjoying sex and procreating doesn't negate the fact that one is trans.


Jay

[Berserk]

First of all, I want to make clear that I don't hate pregnant transmen. Everyone should do what they want to do. This is a discussion and I want to know the opinion of others and I want to share my opinion with others.
I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

Who died and made you the gender police? Honestly, I think it's pretty hypocritical when other trans people try to gatekeep and decide who is/isn't a "real man/woman." How many people out there think we aren't "real men/women" because we were born with a certain reproductive system. Think what you like about yourself, but why do you feel the need to form opinions about other people and what they choose to do with their own bodies? The way I see it, it really doesn't concern you.

I think Thomas Beatie makes other transsexuals look crazy and weird while they aren't. When you say the word transsexual, most people will think of Thomas Beatie (aka that crazy pregnant woman who thinks she's a man - not my words but that of a friend). I'm stealth so I don't care, but this bugs some people who present as transsexual.

Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

Many in society already think we're a bunch of whack jobs. I really don't care. As far as I'm concerned it's society that needs to dump its whole dependence on maintaining a rigid binary that doesn't fit a heck of a lot of people, and which is completely illogical in the context of human history and society. We shouldn't allow that rigidity to affect us to the point of judging other trans people. We each have enough to deal with without trying to tell each other what we should or shouldn't do in order to be "trans enough" or "male enough" or "female enough." Screw that. If a transguy happens to pop out a baby, and the idea disgusts me in the context of myself and my relationship with my body, why should that affect my perspective of him? How exactly is it hurting me to accept him as the man he says he is, unless he tells me otherwise.

[VeryGnawty]

Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

Those people would think we are crazy even without Thomas Beatie.

Haters gonna hate.  If Thomas Beatie did not exist, the haters would just find some other reason to judge us.

[comatose]

Okay, this is my last post, then I leave this forum.
In my country, the requirement to change your sex at your passport and birth certificate for ftms is top surgery and a hysterectomy (mostly, this is done in one intervention) and the requirement for mtfs is a vaginoplasty, and the surgeries are completely covered by insurance. I didn't know that being sterile isn't the requirement to legally change your sex in the US, and that the surgeries aren't covered by insurance. Sorry for that. I'm very interested in psychology and I want to know why someone that want to change his/her sex want to keep his/her female or male parts and likes them.

Ftms are men by their own definition. We are men because we define ourselves as men, whether we still have or always will have or no longer have a vagina and whether we have made peace with out body parts or loathe them does not matter. If it were not for our own definition, there wouldn't be any ftms. We do not "become" male because others judge our decisions or our looks to be male. We are male because we feel so and say so.

Imagine that you know a girl named Stephanie. She has blonde with pink dyed ponytails, likes glitter makeup, dolls, skirts, pink and tiaras. At a day, she tells you she's ftm and wants you to call her 'he' and Stephen. She doesn't want to get on hormones or getting any surgery. And even she presents as a ftm now, she still has pink ponytails, wears glitter makeup, collect dolls, likes to dress up, wears pink skirts and still acts very feminine. Would you call her 'he' and Stephen? Would you consider her as male just because she wants it?
This is an extreme case, but I think this whole gender thing goes too far. There aren't any guys (unless they want to be a girl or are ->-bleeped-<-) who do like to wear glitter makeup, love to dress up, want pink ponytails or want to reproduce as a female.

Who died and made you the gender police? Honestly, I think it's pretty hypocritical when other trans people try to gatekeep and decide who is/isn't a "real man/woman."

I didn't invent this. This is reality. If you think it is my idea that guys don't wear glitter makeup etcetera just to make you angry and tell me that I'm narrow minded, go outside and look at the people that are walking on the street. It's how nature (or God for the believers) made men and women (I didn't invented this too, this is scientifically proven). I didn't decided what are 'real men' and 'real women'. Nature and society did.
There are some stereotypically 'men' and 'women' things that are invented by society and are totally wrong, like all women must have long hair, short skirts, makeup and high heels to be sexy and attractive and that men must be cool, macho, drink beer and watch football to be a real man.
But some stereotypically things are determined by nature. Somebody with a female brain is in general more caring, emotional and less aggressive than somebody with a male brain (scientifically proven too). And someone with a female brain loves her female characteristics and don't want to think about having male characteristics and reversed (all scientifically proven).
You can have a male or female brain. If you have a male brain and a female body, you can make your body male so it fits with your brain or if you have a female brain and a male body, you can make your body female so it fits with your brain. I'm happy that the technology of today let people adjust their body to their brain.
But like I said before, some gender related things are going too far. Like that school in Sweden who educates children gender neutral. Most people, and especially children are needing clarity. It's a wrong way of educating to don't tell them their sex and let them think they can choose. They're born male or female (or intersex in exceptional cases). If they don't know that, it can lead to confusion and depression. On the other hand, maybe it's characteristic for humans to screw up and edit everything that's natural. Without humans, there wouldn't be cars, animal cruelty for stupid and ridiculous things like makeup and fur, destroyed forests, dumped chemicals, beef cows and milk cows and any dog or cat breed.
Also, I don't understand the selfish thought (of both men and women, both cis and trans) why you MUST have a biological child that carries your gen. Why is a biological child more worth than an adopted child? What's the value of a child that carries your gen? And if none of your children will want to reproduce, then your gen is extinct! What a disaster, now you don't gonna have grandchildren that will carry your superior gen and will look like you!
Ask yourself, in this time, is it responsible to throw another worthless person at the pile? By 2050, there are 10 billion people on this planet. Where's space for all that people? Who will feed them? What's the planet gonna look like? And most of the people will drive a car, eat meat and will use environmental damaging things. Just think about it.

I said what I wanted to say now. Congratulations if you've read all this text. I've learned that everything that has to do with babies, pregnancies and biological children is a very sensitive subject here and that most people react like you have attacked them personally when you say that you're against it. It wasn't my intention to attack anyone.

Oh yeah, before I forget, one more thing:

Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

If you want to be funny or sarcastic, you're doing it wrong.
When you want to say something sarcastic on the internet, you must place [sarcasm] in front of you text, and [/sarcasm] behind your text. You did the last step right, but you missed the first step.
This is the same principe if you want to make your text bold, in front of your text, you place two square brackets with 'b' in it. At the end of your text, you place two square brackets too, but before you type the 'b' in it, you must add an angled bracket before you type 'b'.

So, this will be the right way to do it:
[sarcasm] Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

I don't need a thank you.

Berserk, although I don't like your improper use of HTML, I really like the manga called Berserk.

Now I'm going to leave this forum forever, I don't wanna bother you guys anymore.

Best regards,
Comatose

[wheat thins are delicious]

Honestly, comatose, I think you came here just to fight.   

Gender identity =/= gender presentation so your little "example" which you took to the extreme btw, means nothing.  I'm sorry that you have taken society's idea of gender binary so far and cannot accept that not everyone subscribes to one strict set of feelings regarding their own relationship with their bodies. 

[Nygeel]

Russell Brand seems to like glitter and make up. Eddie Izzard wears dresses sometimes just because he wants to. Guys from twisted sister had big hair and wore tons of make up. Feminine men exist. Heck, when gay marriage passed in NY I was at Stonewall...a historical lgbt landmark. When it passed people threw glitter everywhere.

[_Jack_]

I personally love glitter and pink... Comatose, if you are interested in psychology, perhaps you should read more into empathy and understanding as well as having the ability to accept things which fall out of any binary or category that you feel is 'natural'.

[Berserk]

I didn't invent this. This is reality. If you think it is my idea that guys don't wear glitter makeup etcetera just to make you angry and tell me that I'm narrow minded, go outside and look at the people that are walking on the street. It's how nature (or God for the believers) made men and women (I didn't invented this too, this is scientifically proven). I didn't decided what are 'real men' and 'real women'. Nature and society did.
There are some stereotypically 'men' and 'women' things that are invented by society and are totally wrong, like all women must have long hair, short skirts, makeup and high heels to be sexy and attractive and that men must be cool, macho, drink beer and watch football to be a real man.
But some stereotypically things are determined by nature. Somebody with a female brain is in general more caring, emotional and less aggressive than somebody with a male brain (scientifically proven too). And someone with a female brain loves her female characteristics and don't want to think about having male characteristics and reversed (all scientifically proven).

I love how people like to throw around the word "scientifically proven" as though it proves the point. While science has been able to create generalizations on women = more caring, emotional, less aggressive etc., this certainly isn't the rule. It's like those who say that females are "naturally" weaker than men. While men certainly have an advantage as far as building strength/muscle faster than women, there are still women out there are by far stronger than the average man. For example, the max female bench press record at the moment (without use of performance enhancing drugs or with more than a basic lifting shirt) is 520 lbs. So again, we have people misinterpreting what science is saying. As far as your statement, there are many female-bodied, woman identified people who do not naturally have these characteristics (caring, less aggressive etc.), nor do they want to be men. If this were the case, women's team sports (just looking at the recent women's World Cup that went by) would not be achieving the same level of aggression and professionalism as it is today. Science can tell us about the tendencies of the female brain or the male brain, but by no means can it claim, at this point, to know the diversity of each. There are extremely masculine women in the world (much more masculine than some transguys) who have no problems with their female bodies. There are transguys who don't mind using the sex organs they were born with, while others have extreme dysphoria surrounding it. Being trans is not defined by the extent of dysphoria you have.

You can have a male or female brain. If you have a male brain and a female body, you can make your body male so it fits with your brain or if you have a female brain and a male body, you can make your body female so it fits with your brain. I'm happy that the technology of today let people adjust their body to their brain.

And this the point where I know your "it be teh scientifically provenz!!111" statements are bull. Even a basic survey of what we know of the human brain shows that there is quite a bit of diversity when it comes to gender characteristics and the human brain. A person can have a tendency toward certain characteristics that may or may not be congruent with their sex organs/chromosomes, but not all brains are as stereotypically "sexed." For example, it's been found that one of the things the stereotypical male brain excels at is increased spacial ability. Yet there are women who have better spacial ability than some men, and viceversa. As far as the awareness of ones body as interpreted through the mind, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few gay male couples who wished they could bear one of their own biological children.

And, in fact, science has made this possible. The problem with your interpretation of what is and isn't natural, is that what is "natural" is technically anything that is possible. If the laws of nature didn't allow it to happen, then it wouldn't happen. As such, human technology is entire natural, if it weren't, the natural laws would not exist for it to be possible. And human technology has already allowed the creation of female sperm and male eggs, created by using the stem cells of an individual. As such, they foresee that in the not so distant future, lesbian couples will be able to produce their own biologically children using the female sperm of one partner to impregnate the other. The same goes for male eggs and gay couples. The technology will also help infertile couples. The only real problem I've read of them encountering is that the female couples would only be able to produce xx children (actually, it's already possible to create xx children only using female DNA, but hey, I suppose that doesn't make the rich white men of the world all that happy, and, in fact, there are already species where only "females" are responsible for reproduction and the males have been bred out or almost completely bred out), although there has been some written on mutating chromosomes to also allow for xy children. So as far as what you say is "natural"...well, science can only function through what nature allows. Your rigid gender rules and those of society (which are slowly being forced to change) really have no place in the vast possibilities of the scientific world.

But like I said before, some gender related things are going too far. Like that school in Sweden who educates children gender neutral. Most people, and especially children are needing clarity. It's a wrong way of educating to don't tell them their sex and let them think they can choose. They're born male or female (or intersex in exceptional cases). If they don't know that, it can lead to confusion and depression. On the other hand, maybe it's characteristic for humans to screw up and edit everything that's natural. Without humans, there wouldn't be cars, animal cruelty for stupid and ridiculous things like makeup and fur, destroyed forests, dumped chemicals, beef cows and milk cows and any dog or cat breed.

Actually, I approve very much of what the Swedish pre-school is doing. Children gender themselves less often than adults gender children. Gender matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Many of the stereotypes we implement today in Europe and North America as far as gender roles descend from the christianization of Europe. Prior to this there is much archaeological and historical evidence to suggest that in some societies (particularly Germanic, Celtic and Slavic, and to some degree Greco-Roman) the rigidity of gender roles were not the same as today. It was not unusual, as far as archaeological and written record can tell us (as well as the known practices of neighbouring Saami tribes), for Shamans to crossdress and lie outside and between "female" and "male." There's also been recent evidence of even older societies with a wider range of accepted gender/sex identification, more particularly within the Corded Wear culture. Gender rigidity the way we know it today (and knew it for the past 1000 years) has not existed as long as society would have us think, and is really entirely social. As a social system it is entirely changeable.

Also, I don't understand the selfish thought (of both men and women, both cis and trans) why you MUST have a biological child that carries your gen. Why is a biological child more worth than an adopted child? What's the value of a child that carries your gen? And if none of your children will want to reproduce, then your gen is extinct! What a disaster, now you don't gonna have grandchildren that will carry your superior gen and will look like you!
Ask yourself, in this time, is it responsible to throw another worthless person at the pile? By 2050, there are 10 billion people on this planet. Where's space for all that people? Who will feed them? What's the planet gonna look like? And most of the people will drive a car, eat meat and will use environmental damaging things. Just think about it.

That I can't answer. I never intend to have any children whatsoever whether adopted or others, nor marry or any other of that sort of thing. It's not something I'm interested in. You'll have to ask those who do want to reproduce. I might find the thought of myself pregnant to be absolutely disgusting (in fact, I'm one of those that detests their nether regions, though mostly today I pretend it doesn't exist), but that doesn't mean I superimpose my own feelings about my own body onto other transguys. I'm not that insecure...or at least I hope not.

Oh yeah, before I forget, one more thing:If you want to be funny or sarcastic, you're doing it wrong.
When you want to say something sarcastic on the internet, you must place [sarcasm] in front of you text, and [/sarcasm] behind your text. You did the last step right, but you missed the first step.
This is the same principe if you want to make your text bold, in front of your text, you place two square brackets with 'b' in it. At the end of your text, you place two square brackets too, but before you type the 'b' in it, you must add an angled bracket before you type 'b'.

So, this will be the right way to do it:
[sarcasm] Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

I smell a troll!

@Nygeel, yeah glitter is a pretty common mainstay in the lgbtq community...I guess we just ain't natural, lol.

[PidgeTPN]

I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

So you're saying because I refuse to look at the monstrosity that is the result of most bottom surgeries means I'm not a man? The fact that I'm not willing to go through a surgery to be unhappy with another part of me means I'll always be a woman? You honestly need to learn your terminology. How would you like it if someone told you that you aren't allowed to do the surgeries because you'll never have the money for it, like in my case? Because some of us can't afford it or don't want to be unhappy with the end results means we'll never be men? For someone who's supposed to be in an open-minded environment, that's really closed-minded. I think you need to step back and look at how ->-bleeped-<-ed up that statement really is and learn more about the community you claim to be a part of.

[PidgeTPN]

Imagine that you know a girl named Stephanie. She has blonde with pink dyed ponytails, likes glitter makeup, dolls, skirts, pink and tiaras. At a day, she tells you she's ftm and wants you to call her 'he' and Stephen. She doesn't want to get on hormones or getting any surgery. And even she presents as a ftm now, she still has pink ponytails, wears glitter makeup, collect dolls, likes to dress up, wears pink skirts and still acts very feminine. Would you call her 'he' and Stephen? Would you consider her as male just because she wants it?
This is an extreme case, but I think this whole gender thing goes too far. There aren't any guys (unless they want to be a girl or are ->-bleeped-<-) who do like to wear glitter makeup, love to dress up, want pink ponytails or want to reproduce as a female.

Wow, this person really has no idea what they're talking about.

I know TONS of straight, cis-gendered MEN that wear glitter makeup and have pink hair. The fact that in this day and age such bigotry and stupidity still exists is beyond me. The mold of "male and female" was broken over 30 years ago in the Glam Rock era.

You know what? Good riddance. That's one less closed-minded elitist on this forum.

[wheat thins are delicious]

the monstrosity that is the result of most bottom surgeries

That is really unnecessary. 

[RyGuy]

There aren't any guys (unless they want to be a girl or are ->-bleeped-<-) who do like to wear glitter makeup, love to dress up, want pink ponytails or want to reproduce as a female.
I didn't invent this. This is reality. If you think it is my idea that guys don't wear glitter makeup etcetera just to make you angry and tell me that I'm narrow minded, go outside and look at the people that are walking on the street.

obviously you don't live in new york city.... lol

not here to fight because my opinion is irrelevant but if half of us who live in big cities were to heed your advice and look outside, we would see men in high heels and pink makeup. who gives a ->-bleeped-<-? a person on the street who i don't know who has a penis is wearing glitter. alert the media.

[PidgeTPN]

That is really unnecessary.

How? I've seen thousands of surgeries for phalo and metoido and they're undesirable, even to most of the guys I know who have had them done. I'm not going to apologize for the truth, so don't expect me to change th epost.

[wheat thins are delicious]

How? I've seen thousands of surgeries for phalo and metoido and they're undesirable, even to most of the guys I know who have had them done. I'm not going to apologize for the truth, so don't expect me to change th epost.

It's not necessarily to ->-bleeped-<- talk the appearance of someone's genitals.  The results may not be up to your standards but that doesn't change the fact that many guys (some of who are here) have had these surgeries and already get enough flak from the cis people putting their surgeries down and don't need the same treatment from other trans people. 

[wheat thins are delicious]

I've seen thousands of surgeries for phalo and metoido and they're undesirable to me

fixed that for you

[PidgeTPN]

How cute, you're telling me how to think! Have you not seen the thousands of posts from transmen around the world on how horrible their bottom surgery looks to them? Apparently not. Do your homework before you tell me I need to change my opinion in a factual topic. And don't waste your time trying to reply to me, it won't change my mind I assure you.

[wheat thins are delicious]

How cute, you're telling me how to think! Have you not seen the thousands of posts from transmen around the world on how horrible their bottom surgery looks to them? Apparently not. Do your homework before you tell me I need to change my opinion in a factual topic. And don't waste your time trying to reply to me, it won't change my mind I assure you.

Oh I wasn't telling you how to think.  I just said you don't need to spew your hateful opinions here. 

[JungianZoe]

Let's please try to maintain some civility here, hm?  Agree to disagree, move on.  Plenty of threads here on the forums and plenty of love to go around.

[TroyTransistor]

Oh I wasn't telling you how to think.  I just said you don't need to spew your hateful opinions here. 

...dude, are we really not allowed to express any opinion ever? If you don't agree with it, just ignore it. While I don't agree with his opinion, that doesn't make it any less valid. Really, I would have barely noticed it had you not jumped all over him.

In the immortal words of The Who, "Why can't we all just get along?"

[Nygeel]

Here's my take.

Saying things like "all bottom surgery sucks. Why would anybody get that?" Etc is screwed up. It's cissexist and invalidating. Sure you can say it, sure you can think it but that makes you sound like an a-hole.

Saying things like "real men don't like glitter or blah blah blah" also cissexist, screwed up, invalidating and makes you sound like an a-hole.

So yea, you can think these things. You can say these things but realize that you're in a place that's supposed to be inclusive. Many guys have surgery that they are happy with. Many guys like glitter, having long hair and not giving a crap about passing (cause generally "passing" is a busted concept in and of itself).

FUN READING THINGS ABOUT TRANS 101:
http://tranarchism.com/trans-basics/

The guy that runs the site is pretty boss. I think in general he's very understanding and okay with answering questions. It has flaws but it's pretty well written.


Most trans men that have bottom surgery are happier post op.