New here, and looking for advice....

[Misery]

So.... yeah.   Hi there

I'm new here, and I only just found this place a bit ago.   I figured this might be somewhere I could fit into, perhaps, so.... figured, why not.   Lol.

But there was another reason.... I'm also looking for some advice related to this.

For the longest time, I've been trying to achieve an androgynous appearance.

But.... it's hard.   I dont really know how to go about it.

And trying to ask for assistance has been.... an exercise in futility.   I often ask people that supposedly know alot about this sort of thing, and the response I often get is "Well, I dont know what advice to give you".   It's all the more irritating if they're then giving OTHERS plenty of advice on the subject.

So I thought.... hey, why not ask here?   Maybe someone will have something useful to say at this place.   Definitely hoping so.

Anyway, here's a quick photo of me:




I'm looking mostly for advice for the facial aspect;  I can handle other aspects on my own, but stuff like makeup or whatever.... just perplexes me.     I'm aware my clothes in the pic arent anything special... again, dont need help with that part.   Just the face.    What can I do to improve and get closer to an androgynous look?   Am I close to it at all, or am I not?   What do I have going for me, and what do I NOT have going for me?

Any advice is helpful;   trying to look androgynous, which would make me alot more.... comfortable.... overall, but it's..... just so frustrating.   I dont know what to do, and I dunno why people dont give advice, instead saying they cant, which has happened way too often.

[ativan]

This is all I can tell you....
This site is about Androgyn, not androginous.....

iJust remember that androgynous is nothing more than a fashion statement.
You can look androgynous and not be Androgyn
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous
If You are Androgyn and look androgynous, you don't.
You then look androgyn. Which can have a look of androgynous, but it isn't.

Are you looking for fashion advice?
Or are you looking at the life of non-binaries.
Do you find yourself having doubts about your gender, yet feel you aren't the other gender?
more like some one inbetween? Then you might be Androgyn.

If you want fashion advice you are wasting your time here and should be looking instead at fashion Magazines etc.

Want advice about being a gender in between the binary system of gender, not one or the other?
Then this place could be just for you!

Ativan

[Misery]

This is all I can tell you....
This site is about Androgyn, not androginous.....

iJust remember that androgynous is nothing more than a fashion statement.
You can look androgynous and not be Androgyn
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous
If You are Androgyn and look androgynous, you don't.
You then look androgyn. Which can have a look of androgynous, but it isn't.

Are you looking for fashion advice?
Or are you looking at the life of non-binaries.
Do you find yourself having doubts about your gender, yet feel you aren't the other gender?
more like some one inbetween? Then you might be Androgyn.

If you want fashion advice you are wasting your time here and should be looking instead at fashion Magazines etc.

Want advice about being a gender in between the binary system of gender, not one or the other?
Then this place could be just for you!

Ativan

Hmm, I figured the two ideas were... well, linked.    I'm well aware that I do in fact have gender issues.... I look for this appearance for a reason, after all, not just "because".     I'd be most comfortable with myself with this sort of thing.     If I feel "androgyne" but look entirely like one side or the other, it'd sorta blow it for me.      I have my reasons.

So yeah, I figured I'd ask.     

But..... if it's not the place for it, I suppose then my search continues yet again.

Oh well.

[Stephe]

So.... yeah.   Hi there

I'm new here, and I only just found this place a bit ago.   I figured this might be somewhere I could fit into, perhaps, so.... figured, why not.   Lol.

Any advice is helpful;   trying to look androgynous, which would make me alot more.... comfortable.... overall, but it's..... just so frustrating.   I dont know what to do, and I dunno why people dont give advice, instead saying they cant, which has happened way too often.

Hmm my advice would be first you have great hair, accent this. U could get your hair styled to look more fem/less like a guys. Maybe shape/thin your eye brows a bit too and possibly accentuate them with some makeup? Obviously clothes are a big gender clue and "guy colors" are going the scream "I'm a guy". The other simple thing is use a toothy smile a LOT and some light makeup to open up your eyes.. Other things like your mannerisms could be toned down to a more gender neutral state as well.  You don't have a strong "mans face" so you should be able to pull it off without a bunch of effort.

[ativan]

If it is gender issues, then you are indeed in the right place.

Ativan

[Misery]

Hmm my advice would be first you have great hair, accent this. U could get your hair styled to look more fem/less like a guys. Maybe shape/thin your eye brows a bit too and possibly accentuate them with some makeup? Obviously clothes are a big gender clue and "guy colors" are going the scream "I'm a guy". The other simple thing is use a toothy smile a LOT and some light makeup to open up your eyes.. Other things like your mannerisms could be toned down to a more gender neutral state as well.  You don't have a strong "mans face" so you should be able to pull it off without a bunch of effort.

Yes, I've heard that often before, that I should be able to do it "without effort" or such as that.   I do get mistaken for a girl every now and then, so that's encouraging;  I probably wouldnt be really going for it otherwise.

Thanks for the advice, one way or another.   I'll keep some of that in mind, I think.   Unfortunately, "toothy smile" isnt going to work in my case.   My teeth are a little..... off.   I've actually had a dentist tell me that my canines look more like "fangs" than normal canines;  and the rest of my teeth aint so great either.   A little bit of deformity there, so I dont do the wide smile.   I'm not really the constantly-smiley type anyway, haha.

If it is gender issues, then you are indeed in the right place.

Ativan

Gender issues indeed.    I've been struggling with it for.... some time now.   Frankly, I often wish it'd go away, but I know better.    I have at least learned to accept the fact that it's there, rather than try to rail against it.   So I am, at least (usually) comfortable doing things like, wearing girl-ish clothing, and stuff like that, instead of feeling like a complete doof.

Alot of people seem to find me to be a bit girly by default anyway.   I've never been sure just why.

Still, it's hard.... but I bet I dont have to tell anyone here that.   

It's always good to find more support though, that's for sure.

[Pica Pica]

   I'm not really the constantly-smiley type anyway, haha.

Well, with a handle like 'misery', it would seem that you rather created yerself not to be the smiley type.

The androgyne thing, to me, is a bout creating a solid, authentic and whole person, uniting body/mind/soul that is simply not/un gendered.

The biggest changes will always have to be your attitude to yourself and your world, if you feel like you are androgyne, you have to reconcile yourself to the parts of your life that won't fit - and learn to accept the 'male' elements as well as the 'female' elements, and then learn that both elements are part of an androgynous whole. It's a pretty much eternal journey as far as I can see.

However, if you do want to femme-up a bit, adopting a female hairstyle would be good, and shaping your eyelashes. I try and keep my fingernails in good order and paint them often. You may want some light lipstick, maybe a little bit of blusher - I wear a little in the winter because I never see the sun and so look zombie-like without some.

Many people like eyeshadow, but I think it looks more pretentious then feminine on a male face. Though you may want to use eyelash curlers/mascara. Like you I have light eyelashes so I use a clear mascara, especially if I am going somewhere special - you appear to have lengthy lashes so that'll do you nicely. These are all subtle things but such subtle clues are picked up, often without the person realising.

As for mannerisms and voice, I wouldn't touch 'em, I believe we are in this to become the people we are and so mannerisms and voice are the vital and clear expressive elements of ourselves and so should come from that source, not a need to 'be' something else.

The big thing is to construct, refine and understand your own self, irrespective of male and female, that is the real challenge.

[Misery]

Well, with a handle like 'misery', it would seem that you rather created yerself not to be the smiley type.

I didnt say much about myself in my opening post, but I am big into gaming;   the name "Misery" is actually taken from a character I like from a particular game (Cave Story, if anyone cares).  Somehow, it also sounds cool, so I've been using that.

It's also a name that doesnt seem to be used much, and that's helpful for signing up with forums.... one thing that always just drives me up the wall is having to constantly think up new, progressively stupider names because whatever I'm thinking up is already taken!   This one generally isnt, though.


And yeah, I keep thinking I should change up my hair a bit, but..... ah, laziness!  So much laziness.   I'll do SOMETHING about it eventually though.

Other than that, more good advice to keep in mind, thank you.

[Stephe]

And yeah, I keep thinking I should change up my hair a bit, but..... ah, laziness!  So much laziness.   I'll do SOMETHING about it eventually though.

Being lazy about your appearance is a sign, obviously, you don't care what you look like. It's also a very "guy" thing to do. Bad nails, zero skin care, ratty/unmatched clothes etc instantly paints "guy". Even bad teeth are something most women wouldn't tolerate. Not trying to put you down, just this is a fact.

[Randi]

The others are right you know-you have to study and learn how to look more feminine-hair, nails, brows, and girls clothes not just girly looking guys clothing. It is also much about the 'attitude' which you use to present yourself to the rest of the world. Like was suggested earlier, get some fashion magazines and look at what the girls wear, how they layer different styles and colors to achieve a certain look, how they carry themselves when they walk,sit, or stand, gestures made with hands, head, eyes... Watch anime movies and emulate the styles of clothing and hair they wear.

I identify as mtf but wear an androgenous style to work. I started with getting my hairdresser to give me a womans hair style. She didn't want to at first but after telling her EXACTLY what style I was looking for she gave it to me and now I am able to get the look I want-except on days that my hair will not do what I want. Then I just pull it back into a ponytail and try again the next day. I pluck my brows and keep them short-everything below the brow ridge has to go along with all the hair between the brows over my nose. I epilate all my body hair and keep it gone. I wear girls clothing everyday mixed with guys stuff-guys shirts and girls pants or guys pants and girls tee shirt under a guys or girls button down shirt. I have my ears pierced, wear my hair in a girls style and it works! But it does take practice and alot of time- it's well worth every minute if it works.

Randi

By the way-Welcome to Susans!!!

[Stephe]

I have my ears pierced, wear my hair in a girls style and it works!

I forgot, get your ears pierced and wear fem looking earrings. A LOT of it has to do with how you carry yourself and if you project masculine or feminine.

[Pica Pica]

how they carry themselves when they walk,sit, or stand, gestures made with hands, head, eyes... Watch anime movies and emulate the styles of clothing and hair they wear.

How is any of that learning to be an authentic person? How is any of that learning to realise a true, honest and integral androgyne identity?

It's daft roleplaying and pretend? How is that real?

Also, what has that got to do with being an ANDROGYNE- someone who is PSYCHOLOGICALLY neither male nor female.

[ativan]

Gender has no meaning or value if it is counterfeit.
Counterfeit gender is just a game, a trick, an amusement,
an act, a fraud, a deception, an imitation, artificial, bogus.

Be yourself, not a gender.
Being yourself is effortless and genuine.
Being yourself is REAL, not counterfeit.
In being yourself, in behaving in a manner which is natural to you,
whatever gender you are becomes self-evident.

-Emerald

I just love putting that up. It's so true

Ativan

[Stephe]

How is any of that learning to be an authentic person? How is any of that learning to realise a true, honest and integral androgyne identity?

It's daft roleplaying and pretend? How is that real?

Also, what has that got to do with being an ANDROGYNE- someone who is PSYCHOLOGICALLY neither male nor female.

Did this guy ever post that HE is ANDROGYNE or that he thought he might be? He asked for advice on how to appear more androgynous. He did not ask how to be "PSYCHOLOGICALLY neither male nor female" but that is the advice you and others gave the OP.

Almost all gender based behavior is learned. Actually most behavior period is learned from an external source. Like do you think girls "sit like a girl" because of some physical trait? They learned it from watching others so yes it's role playing their gender. Act like a guy and no one is going to guess what gender you are was this posters point. Clearly it was not advice for you, but you seem to have been offended by it?


And what's up with the hostility on this forum. One person basically tells him to get lost and you attack another for giving him some advice on how to appear more androgynous. Sorry, I guess we aren't a member of your little clique here?

[Misery]

Did this guy ever post that HE is ANDROGYNE or that he thought he might be? He asked for advice on how to appear more androgynous. He did not ask how to be "PSYCHOLOGICALLY neither male nor female" but that is the advice you and others gave the OP.

Almost all gender based behavior is learned. Actually most behavior period is learned from an external source. Like do you think girls "sit like a girl" because of some physical trait? They learned it from watching others so yes it's role playing their gender. Act like a guy and no one is going to guess what gender you are was this posters point. Clearly it was not advice for you, but you seem to have been offended by it?


And what's up with the hostility on this forum. One person basically tells him to get lost and you attack another for giving him some advice on how to appear more androgynous. Sorry, I guess we aren't a member of your little clique here?

Oh dear.   Lets not get to arguing, shall we?   It wont accomplish anything.

Yes, I would identify as "androgyne", but my personal situation is more..... complicated..... than just that.   I dont do anything without a reason, so I do in fact have reasons for pursuing an androgynous appearance so dilligently.

And one way or another, I have enough of the psychological aspect of it to begin with.   In terms of my mannerisms and behavior, I'm kinda girly just.... by default.   Why?   No idea.  Dont CARE why.  But it's there already. 

Anyway, it doesnt need arguing about, I think.    I know what the others were saying and understood it well enough.   But I thank you for your concern nonetheless.

Being lazy about your appearance is a sign, obviously, you don't care what you look like. It's also a very "guy" thing to do. Bad nails, zero skin care, ratty/unmatched clothes etc instantly paints "guy". Even bad teeth are something most women wouldn't tolerate. Not trying to put you down, just this is a fact.

Well, part of it is that I only get out of the house so much;  I put particular effort into my appearance if, you know, I intend on DOING something on a particular day.     My situation is a rare sort;  not only do I not work, I do not NEED to work, which leads to silly amounts of free time but not a whole lot to actually do (I'm in the middle of nowhere, and there's NOTHING around here).    When it does come time to do something big though..... yeah, I put the time in, appearance-wise.

The problem is that I know so little about that sorta thing.     Like, say, the makeup.   I know that kinda thing helps.... but the HOW to do it bit.... yeah.  I've never found a good source of learning with that one.

Watch anime movies and emulate the styles of clothing and hair they wear.

Haha, I've definitely seen enough anime.   I do conventions and cosplay (I really shoulda done a better intro post and explained more about myself....) and that at least allows me to explore the "femme" side of myself a bit more freely, albeit in an extremely bizarre setting.

How is any of that learning to be an authentic person? How is any of that learning to realise a true, honest and integral androgyne identity?

It's daft roleplaying and pretend? How is that real?

Also, what has that got to do with being an ANDROGYNE- someone who is PSYCHOLOGICALLY neither male nor female.

Because it's even more complicated than just that, for some.

Part of it has to do with how people percieve you;  an important aspect much of the time, wether anyone wants to admit it or not.    Getting the appearance right changes the perception, which changes the reactions and interactions.

I dont consider it at all "roleplaying and pretend", but even THAT would have a psychological side to it.... you'd be surprised.   And such "roleplaying" can be "real" in it's way as well.... but that's situational, and it's.... very hard to explain if you dont already know exactly what I'm talking about.   A bit confusing, definitely.   *I* know what I mean though, which is the important bit, haha.

As it is though, for me, I simply want my appearance to match the way I feel, and such.... that, to me, is important.   That, too, is psychological, and me trying to deny that aspect would be extremely foolish and be nothing but trouble.

And.... as I've said before, I have other reasons as well.  I'm just not gonna go into it right now.

But at the core of things.... I wouldnt be doing any of it, if it wasnt important to who I am.    So, I go after it.

[Pica Pica]

Did this guy ever post that HE is ANDROGYNE or that he thought he might be?

They posted on the androgyne part of the forum. Seems a logical assumption. Also, what's with all the 'he' stuff - you'd get annoyed if I called you 'he', so might Misery.

He asked for advice on how to appear more androgynous. He did not ask how to be "PSYCHOLOGICALLY neither male nor female" but that is the advice you and others gave the OP.

And advice on that has been given on an androgynous look - despite the fact that very few people can agree what an androgynous look is, beyond glacial coldness and cheekbones.

Almost all gender based behavior is learned. Actually most behavior period is learned from an external source. Like do you think girls "sit like a girl" because of some physical trait? They learned it from watching others so yes it's role playing their gender. Act like a guy and no one is going to guess what gender you are was this posters point.

And how does someone learn to be androgynous? What behaviours should an androgynous person learn? What arbitrary qualities should a person who is neither male nor female have? And who they going to learn it off?

Clearly it was not advice for you, but you seem to have been offended by it?

Not offended, but I did feel that it was utterly wrong advice. Maybe I'm wrong maybe being an androgyne is not about a quest for authentic self, maybe it is just an excuse to look pretty and mince about.

And what's up with the hostility on this forum. One person basically tells him to get lost and you attack another for giving him some advice on how to appear more androgynous. Sorry, I guess we aren't a member of your little clique here?

I'm just sick and tired of people coming into the androgyne section who clearly do not have the first clue what an androgyne is.

Personally, I find  that coming in to the androgyne section and telling the androgynes to study female behaviour and adopt it is akin to me going into the MTF section, calling everyone there moaning jessies who need to pull their heads out their posteriors and learn to be real men - it's about as offensive.

I find it incredible that on the same site that hosts probably the most lovely and focused chats on being androgyne and issues of androgynity can also have biweekly links in the news section to personal blogs detailing how disgusting, wrong, ugly and out of place androgynes and other 'transgender' types are to the normal MTF crowd.

And Misery - what is an androgynous appearance? Because 5 years of discussing this stuff, and I've yet to find one that thoroughly convinces.

[ativan]

Just remember that androgynous is nothing more than a fashion statement.
You can look androgynous and not be Androgyn
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous

If You are Androgyn and look androgynous, you don't.
You then look androgyn. Which can have a look of androgynous, but it isn't.

There are places to discuss fashion and such with even more, right in the General Discussions area

Ativan

[Pica Pica]

I didnt say much about myself in my opening post, but I am big into gaming;   the name "Misery" is actually taken from a character I like from a particular game (Cave Story, if anyone cares).  Somehow, it also sounds cool, so I've been using that.

It's also a name that doesnt seem to be used much, and that's helpful for signing up with forums.... one thing that always just drives me up the wall is having to constantly think up new, progressively stupider names because whatever I'm thinking up is already taken!   This one generally isnt, though.


And yeah, I keep thinking I should change up my hair a bit, but..... ah, laziness!  So much laziness.   I'll do SOMETHING about it eventually though.

Other than that, more good advice to keep in mind, thank you.

Oh get it. People don't get mine either, think it's a pokemon thing, when actually it's the latin name for a European M->-bleeped-<-ie.
The joys of internet communication eh?

[Misery]

Not offended, but I did feel that it was utterly wrong advice. Maybe I'm wrong maybe being an androgyne is not about a quest for authentic self, maybe it is just an excuse to look pretty and mince about.

And yet, it was part of the sort of advice that I sought.    Wrong to you, perhaps, but does that mean it is wrong for all?

You make quite a large assumption, with this sort of thinking.   As I stated in my previous post, for me, the physical and the psychological are tied together;  there's nothing I can really do about that, and I'm not going to try to fight it.    And so, I seek the sort of advice that I do.

But saying that it's "utterly wrong" isnt going to help.   For different individuals, with different minds and different situations, that bit will always also be different.

I'm just sick and tired of people coming into the androgyne section who clearly do not have the first clue what an androgyne is.

Another set of assumptions.   You assume that it will be exactly the same for all, as it is for you.... this is.... well, not correct whatsoever.

You better believe I know what it is, after so much time of dealing and struggling with the whole accursed thing.   Frankly, there are times I wish I DIDNT know (generally, when I'm feeling irritable).   But at the same time, it IS a part of who I am, and you better believe I've spent alot of time analyzing it.   

If *I* decide that achieving a particular sort of appearance is important, for my own situation, how can you argue that?   For reasons entirely my own, I have decided that it is important;  and therefore, it is.     Psychologically, for me, not for you, this is something that I need to try to achieve.      The physical aspect is there, but assuming that it's JUST physical is.... well, silly.

Personally, I find  that coming in to the androgyne section and telling the androgynes to study female behaviour and adopt it is akin to me going into the MTF section, calling everyone there moaning jessies who need to pull their heads out their posteriors and learn to be real men - it's about as offensive.

Offensive?  .....no.    Logical?   Yes.    Telling me to look into female behavior/clothes/whatever makes sense.... because I am physically male.   THAT part should be pretty simple to understand, frankly.   Were I physcially female, I would likely get the other side of the advice.     I really dont know how you can pull "offensive" out of that.     There's no reason to be oversensitive about it.     

And yes, I know..... some people out there really ARE jerkwads about this sort of thing.   Believe me, I've dealt with that crap before, as Im sure many on this board have.   But still.... being overly sensitive about it doesnt help.   Specifically, seeing offense where there is none..... THAT leads to nothing but trouble, and worse, the person doing it often really does not know that they ARE doing it.

And Misery - what is an androgynous appearance? Because 5 years of discussing this stuff, and I've yet to find on that thoroughly convinces.

Oh, THAT part is easy.

It is, frankly, whatever I bloody well decide that it is, since it's MY appearance, and MY mind.

The appearance, perhaps, of "neither gender", and/or of "both genders".    This is what I have decided that it is.   So for me, that really IS what it is.    Absolutely nothing will change my mind on this one.   

It is whatever allows me to feel more comfortable with myself, and such as that.   If others disagree?   Well.... too bad for them,  it's THEIR problem, not mine.




My overall POINT here, is that there's no purpose in arguing any of this, really.    Everyone's situation is different.   My situation is DEFINITELY different (there's more to it than I've even hinted at), and so "normal" advice for this, if there was such a thing, does not necessarily apply.     And even then.... getting annoyed because the given advice doesnt match what you specifically think it should is kinda silly.

And I'm not trying to be rude or snappy myself, so please dont take any of it that way, because it's not meant to be.   Just trying to be logical and explain my reasoning, that's all 

People DO tend to take things I say that way though, which is a little annoying.

[Pica Pica]

Stephe, I blew up a bit. I have thought of a calmer and fairer way to explain myself.

You saw androgynous and thought of someone like Andrej Pejic - that model, identifies as male and looks like a wraithlike female.

You naturally applied this to Misery, to be androgynous, they are a male (hence male pronouns) but come across as a female (so the roleplay and the learning and such)...and hey presto! androgynous. Makes perfect sense.

However - this kind of androgynous relies on male and female to define itself. It is defined solely by it's relationship between those binary concepts, specifically in the unusual and conscious mix of them. But an androgyne is striving (with no recognition or support except each other) to have a space and identity that is not related to the binary - or if is, is related to it only as a middle zone.

To be androgyne is to try and claim neither/both male and female as a legitimate space in itself, away and separate from those. This takes lots of forms and is often a confusing and chaotic mess, we are still working out the basics. But, what is known is that to say it is male with female bits or female with male bits is to not recognise that 'androgyne space' as something in itself.

Hence the anger (and possible spitefulness) of having that space invalidated. (By which I don't mean the forum, I mean the conceptual space of 'mental androgynity'.

As to the clique thing, imagine how welcome I would be were I to go in the MTF bit and tell everyone that there journeys were futile because there was no binary gender...would not be a popular bunny. The anger generated would not come from the MTFs being a clique, but from them being a community having a core value undermined.  The androgyne section is no different.