Post-op and non-op / not post-op vs non-op

[Izumi]

I see a lot of people on the forums get into fights over the subject and they seem pretty passionate about their opinions.  I was just wondering why it gets on people's nerves so much and i think i came to a few realizations.

If we are born with GID (MTF side) then we are all born women, not transsexuals.  Transsexualism is a condition of our birth, a symptom of it, some people don't like the term defect but in my case its accurate (in your case you might take offense which is why i speak for myself and no one else), it was a defect that made it more difficult to compete on the same level as other girls for my spot in the world, yet it is a defect that can be corrected through a mix of therapy and possible surgeries.   Eventually i became post-op but i don't harbor any mixed feelings about people who don't get the surgery, its their choice after all, and for a while i couldn't figure out why it get post-ops so riled up.

I think the problem for most post-op's is the idea of a non-op being called a transsexual invalidates their struggle and in their eyes when they are looked at by society, even if they have had the surgery, they would still be regarded as transsexual rather then a woman or even worse slang terms that we have all heard that i don't need to repeat.  This I think is not the non-op's fault who have learned to live with or tolerate their state and more to do with societal perception on what a man or a woman is.

Let me simplify all this, having done research on what makes a man a man and a woman a woman, only two constants exist for both:
a) a man or woman believe they are such with heart and mind.
b) the rest of society agrees with them.

"B" is where the problems come in.  If a woman has a penis she is no longer viewed by society (notice i used society here and what i mean is the general LGBT ignorant populace , i myself don't have issues) as a woman and if the condition post-op and non-ops share are linked then by association post-ops who suffer from GID as well also don't become women, even if they believe it and have spent thousands on treatment.  I can see where they would get upset having something so expensive and painful being invalidated socially and their sex put into question, however, I see this is not the Non-op's fault, its more society's fault. 

I for one can't envision myself with a penis and be a woman, it doesn't fit in my mind, and a lot people are the same way, however everyone is different and some people don't mind it as much as me, whether it be mental fortitude or genetically imprinted i don't know, but that is just the way things are.  Whatever the reason, you cant blame people for being different, otherwise look at yourself, yeah we are different too, being born with GID makes us different but we share the common goal of being accepted by society as what we see ourselves, so please don't fight each other and just work to a day where society understands what a woman and man truly are.

[AbraCadabra]

Thanks Izumi, very interesting post it is.

Question: Why would this have to be an issue for us post-ops if no one knows other then we just another (natal) woman?

This issue would only apply if you are outed, or?

Then, how often are we post-ops outed?

I can see if we associate a lot with pre- and more so non-ops, it may bring up this issue that you figured out --- because it be us (post-ops) that identify with the non-op condition's perception in society. Aha!

Is this actually worth fighting over?

It could also be, that non- and/or pre-ops be demanding post-ops to keep presenting in a trans(woman) status. Heck, that I would find pretty strong tobacco. Yet I'm free to present as what ever I wish so long that goes fine by me.

Lastly we are all subject to cultural conditioning and norms of normalcy.
If I see some person on a heavy bike, in biker's leathers, sporting a full beard, wearing lipstick, mascara, eye shadow, and a pink tutu --- I too have reached my own limit. Now call me a bigot?

The feeling is, that doing such, makes a mockery of the female gender and it sure puts me off. Absolutely does, and for sure I do not want to associate with any of it. This BTW, was the last Jhb 'Pride Parade'... :-(
Now do pre- and non-ops make a mockery of the female gender? I do not see that at all, though that's just my position.

Thoughts from the small chair,
Axelle

[Izumi]

Thanks Izumi, very interesting post it is.

Question: Why would this have to be an issue for us post-ops if no one knows other then we just another (natal) woman?

This issue would only apply if you are outed, or?

Then, how often are we post-ops outed?

I can see if we associate a lot with pre- and more so non-ops, it may bring up this issue that you figured out --- because it be us (post-ops) that identify with the non-op condition's perception in society. Aha!

Is this actually worth fighting over?

It could also be, that non- and/or pre-ops be demanding post-ops to keep presenting in a trans(woman) status. Heck, that I would find pretty strong tobacco. Yet I'm free to present as what ever I wish so long that goes fine by me.

Lastly we are all subject to cultural conditioning and norms of normalcy.
If I see some person on a heavy bike, in biker's leathers, sporting a full beard, wearing lipstick, mascara, eye shadow, and a pink tutu --- I too have reached my own limit. Now call me a bigot?

The feeling is, that doing such, makes a mockery of the female gender and it sure puts me off. Absolutely does, and for sure I do not want to associate with any of it. This BTW, was the last Jhb 'Pride Parade'... :-(
Now do pre- and non-ops make a mockery of the female gender? I do not see that at all, though that's just my position.

Thoughts from the small chair,
Axelle

First of all let me define non-op as best as i can maybe there is a misunderstanding, my view of a non-op is someone who identifies and whole heatedly mind and body believes they are a woman (MTF, obviously FTM for men) but has learned to accept living with a penis for various reasons.   For a lot of us the thought of non-op is the same as death, because we cannot envision ourselves like that, but for others they want to live regardless of it.  Each of us deals with it in our own way, some with surgery, some with just acceptance of things the way they are.   

To answer some of your questions:
Q) Why would this have to be an issue for us post-ops if no one knows other then we just another (natal) woman?
A) To me its not an issue, but to other people and some heated debates around here, it seems it is. 

Q) This issue would only apply if you are outed, or?
A) The issue doesn't have to apply only if outed or can be easily identified in society.  Some people have a strong feeling on the topic and it becomes an issue for them simply because a group exists.  For example a Group A (post op) identifies as woman, Group B ( non-op) identify as woman too.  Group A even without being outed might still take offense to group B calling itself the same thing as group A yet they haven't gone through the same process and pain as group A, thereby Group A feels a little bitterness, this is not always true but i see some real bitterness sometimes here and in other places.  So its not an outed or not thing, its more of a self validation issue.

QS) It could also be, that non- and/or pre-ops be demanding post-ops to keep presenting in a trans(woman) status. Heck, that I would find pretty strong tobacco. Yet I'm free to present as what ever I wish so long that goes fine by me.
A) If people are presenting as TS on purpose they are not women maybe they have some other disorder or have a fetish for it.  I am a woman, if your MTF you are a woman born with TS, but your still a woman, not a transsexual or a transsexual woman.  Your just are a woman, regardless of the male brainwashing society and your parents gave you by mistake.  If you don't believe that, then you should probably question why your doing all this in the first place.   Like for example people who love being born like this, i cant imagine what is in those people's heads, it kind of sucks, its a financial, mental, physical, and social drain, a drain i could have done without, there is nothing that i can find wonderful about it, if i was born a woman without it, my life would have been better since i wouldn't have all the issues tied to it to deal with.   Its okay to embrace being different and love your individuality but to embrace something that made it harder in life for you to succeed is something i cant fathom.   If you love that it made you stronger person that is something i can understand but to say to the world i enjoy living with TS issues..... i would rather have lived without them.

Q) Now call me a bigot?
A)  No, i wouldn't call you a bigot, but there is the difference between a non-op who goes through HRT and presents as a woman as best as she can, and a TV which you seem to have described.  Just about all MTF have certain things in common and one of which is our longing for a female body to match our mind, and due to one circumstance or another they cannot get surgery.  Would a pre-op that wants surgery that dies a pre-op be a non-op? or a pre-op that cant have surgery for health reasons? or out of fear or a number of other issues, are they any less women?  I don't know the answer, but i am sure a biker in a tu-tu isn't a woman.  So i think your example is contrary to what just about every woman feels in terms of appearance.   Just about every MTF i know goes out of there way for every little shred of femininity they can get their hands on.

Now that being said there are MEN who take HRT for various reasons, could be money, could be fetish, could be any number of reasons, they are not like us, our motivations to change ourselves are seated deeply in our hearts and minds, rather then from external sources or sexual fantasy.  I know a few people who are non-ops that did it for the money in porn or prostitution, i don't consider those people part of the non-op crowd.

[SandraJane]

Why is it that the poor little "Tu-Tu's" get treated so disrespectfully?

[Randi]

Thanks Izumi, that is a lot of food for thought. I am not aware of the threads you talked about and I don't need to see them to be honest. I am mtf and going slowly on a long journey-one I may never get to finish for various reasons. Nevertheless, I am trying my best to be as feminine as I can possibly be and leave my male persona far behind me. If that makes me a woman I accept the term with pride. If someone else doesn't think I should call myself a woman because I can't get the surgery yet-that's ok too I guess. But I would never wish this condition upon anyone nor will I ever enjoy the thought of being transexual. I see it as a birth defect that needs fixing.

I don't like confrontation and will attempt to either get away from it or ignore it. There seem to be far too many judgemental and obstinate people around these days that do not respect anyone who has a different opinion or way of living that they do. Just the other day I responded to someone in the androgen section and had my response ripped apart by two people in there. It was totally uncalled for but to say anything else would be adding fuel to a useless fire so I didn't say anything else.

I would like to think we are all just trying to live in peace and harmony with our surroundings and society in general. Please everyone, be respectful and considerate of the feelings of others when posting or responding to their posts.

Thanks for trying to clarify this issue for us all.
Randi

[Izumi]

Why is it that the poor little "Tu-Tu's" get treated so disrespectfully?

Tu-Tu's should be reserved for dance studio's, Dance halls, and the ballet.  The only other time you wear a tu-tu is if your on your way to that event or its halloween, any other time is socially unacceptable.  I find it difficult to believe a biker in a tu-tu is on their way to a recital of swan lake...

[AbraCadabra]

Hi Izumi and all,
firstly thanks for putting so much into your posts and trying to make rational a not so rational agenda.
The point you made and that 'jumped' at me it this validation and group thinking between pre- non-ops vs post-ops.

It almost reminds me of 'cast' thinking. We post-ops have gone through the ritual at great expense (SRS) to finally be what we so pined and suffered for --- then some ladies can make you feel invalidated because they don't seem to care 2 straws about? Just overstating the point some - of course. But that's it?

It's the thinking, I vaguely recall: having gone to Varsity, more better yet joined a "Schlagende Verbindung" (going at each other with "Schläger" sabres) have the scars to show off and become ever so special, then identifying ONLY with those folks that had done the same. Oh, I have seen THAT!

It is a tempting thing to do. It ALSO is what ALL initiation ever was about.
It also is the woman that gave birth vs the one that could not.
There is a name for it: ONE-UP-MANSHIP!

I do pray not to go for this one, when being myself post-op. I pray!
Because I would leave behind all the fears and trepidations of my transition up to this point, loosing surely some empathy in the process. Not a good thing, nor good place to be in.

Lastly the tutu item.
It actually puts us ALL pre- non-op and post-op on the receiving end of invalidation.
Being made invalid is painful. It also may serve as a lesson to post-ops what some pre- non-ops are experiencing when invalidated by post-ops.
To be made feel this way just hurts, hurts badly.

TVs were mentioned...
I think they fine by me as they in all my knowing do not invalidate me.
They do their stagy thing, make their money, and have a good time doing it. So what then?!

But these (SA term please) 'femme-bears', I described in my earlier post are just beyond my pale. It may be my current failing, I may concede.
I spoke to some ggs about it and they just laughed them off. Not even worth to call them more then clowns, and maybe simply clowns with no bad intensions after all. A much healthier reaction then mine, being disgusted.

Thank you for reading,
Axelle

[AbraCadabra]

I think the elitist, ONE-UP-MANSHIP declarations are way overstated. I dont think peoples egos are so big that there is intentional, overt putdowns on a large scale against other people. Post-op folks have been through the fire of coming out to family, friends, workplace, transition, pain of surgery and adaptation to new lives and new bodies. Experienced loss and rejection. I personally have been rejected for my birth condition after disclosure so many times I cant count them. All had a starting point, an incorrect body and in most cases an incorrect life and suffering. Alot of suffering. This doesnt sound to me like ingredients for snobbery.

Val, I think a lot if not MOST of what you state is ALSO being experienced by pre- and non-ops. The ONLY difference in the end is SRS.
There be more pre- & non-op suicides then post-op ones I am sure, that may want you think also, as far as their suffering is concerned.
Lastly it IS suffering during an initiation, being cut in the face by a sabre, having been wounded in a war, or simply having done boot-camp that tend to make us feel one-up.

The driving factor in most peoples behaviors is fear, not ego. It occurs in all walks of life, its just part of human nature. What are they afraid of? If that can be known, then the persons motives can be understood and can be responded to if desired.

The BIGGER the FEAR the BIGGER the EGO.
Big egos are just one BIG cover-up for insecurities.
That may be new to you, but it is JUST that. Watch those BIG EGOS crumble when the jig is up.
I have, so I do know. No YMMV, in this case.

Of course wherever you have human beings you will find class systems. What determines class is simply the society and group consciousness. What does the group at large consider class levels for their group. That depends on the goals of the group, but in alot of instances it comes down to money, beauty, intelligence, experience, talent, etc.

Yes, these systems ARE there, and ARE there for reasons --- but not to rub it in the 'under-dogs' face! It was called racism in SA,  just one prime example.

Many post-op people are in a position to be leaders of their community because of their experience. They have been through the pain, tough times, coming out, therapies, legal issues, the works. Post-op folks have value, they can be a major help to people just starting their journeys.

Let's have some compassion I say, with THAT leadership potential that is thwarted because of being pre- or non-op. No need, being a Sergeant-Major to look down on the Ensign that sweats his/her arse off in boot camp, or?

It is challenging because perspective changes at different places on the journey. And some folks are not journeying through transition or surgeries. It is challenging to make all those different viewpoints be able to live together because goals are different and fear of changes one group may want to advocate for may put the other group at risk.

Yes, it is ALL about perspective, ALL.
Yet, we need 'flexibility' to ALLOW embracing NEW perspectives. That is what comes so hard.

And the particular issue with post-op and non-op, the non-op in many cases does not accept the leadership, experience and maturity of the post-op because they are too very different groups with different goals and values.

To have SRS, does NOT per se make anyone a leader.
Leadership quality does not come as a by-pack to an operation, not even SRS. It just does not, - really.

I dont know if these two groups can coexist civilly, hence the questioning of the value of an umbrella concept. A separatist isnt an elitist, but recognizes that groups are not the same. There is not enough of a common bond.

The SA experience shows it can be done, yet who said is was EASY?!
It actually NEEDS mature leadership to negotiate those tricky issues. It does not need inflated egos, - a sign for the need of more maturity. To bully or force ones own agenda as a 'leader' or boss is not what makes leadership - we do know this by now, no?

A leader makes people to follow him/her willingly and not by order - that's best case, but still.

Nothing personal, that's all meant for general consumption --- so let the flame-throwers be at the ready... :-)

Hugs
Axelle

[Stephe]

Just about all MTF have certain things in common and one of which is our longing for a female body to match our mind, and due to one circumstance or another they cannot get surgery.

OK I can only speak for myself here, I consider myself a non-op TG. I never call myself a TS, don't want to insult anyone and clearly it would some people. Not sure it accurately fits me anyway. My issues are with my gender not my sex.

I had a longing to live as a girl/woman since I was a child. To be accepted as one socially and interact with the public as a woman. I -am- a woman mentally so NEED this. I role played a man for years as I grew up but finally couldn't take it anymore. Never really hated my body, just hated being a man.

When I first started seeking medical treatment (after living full time for a few years), my desired results from HRT was to feminize my face so I fit my gender better. Soften my skin, lose visible body hair and muscle mass on my arms.  I have had FFS recently so I fit into my real gender better. I am in voice therapy. The part of my body under my clothes that people don't see? It's not that important to me to change, at least right now it's not. I read TS people saying "OMG I look at myself in the mirror and wanna kill myself because of my penis!!" I never have thought that. I don't "Love my penis" as some people accuse non-ops of, I just really don't have a lot of feeling one way or the other.  When I would look in the mirror naked I would look at my face and go "ugh I hate the way my face looks so guy" and just don't pay any attention to what's between my legs. Not a focus point for me. I spend time to learn to do makeup that helped the appearance of my face so I could live with what I saw in the mirror. FFS has made me VERY happy as it fixed that problem! I no longer see guy even first thing in the morning with no makeup. )

Wish I had larger natural breasts? Yep but I just enhance what I have so when I'm dressed for the day they look like I want and it's not a big deal to me. I'm not the first women who threw something in her bra to fill it out better.  What's between my legs is tucked away and I forget about it. Out of sight out of mind for me. Do I "wish" I had a female body? Yep but the MUCH stronger need for me was to become a woman, not an overwhelming need to be female.

Maybe THAT is the difference between post-op and non-op you are looking for. One has a STRONG desire to be a woman AND to be female, maybe even to the point the desire to be female is the stronger of the two. . A non-op for whatever reason just has a need to be a woman, the desire/need to be female isn't that strong.

We both are women is what we have in common. We also share the pains of transition, turning our lives upside down, potential loss of family and friends, employment issues etc etc. I was lucky I was accepted by almost everyone I know and have a lot of new friends who love me. We all have had to adapt to new lives and I've had to deal with many of the same expenses and pains a post-op has, minus one surgery.

I just honestly don't see this one surgery as being the huge divide some people try to make it into.

[AbraCadabra]

. . A non-op for whatever reason just has a need to be a woman, the desire/need to be female isn't that strong.

Interesting point you make...

We both are women is what we have in common. We also share the pains of transition, turning our lives upside down, potential loss of family and friends, employment issues etc etc. I was lucky I was accepted by almost everyone I know and have a lot of new friends who love me. We all have had to adapt to new lives and I've had to deal with many of the same expenses and pains a post-op has, minus one surgery.

My point, as I stated earlier on.

I just honestly don't see this one surgery as being the huge divide some people try to make it into.

I tend to agree but I'll let you know if that will change after I had SRS next week.

Axelle

[Ann Onymous]

OK I can only speak for myself here, I consider myself a non-op TG. I never call myself a TS, don't want to insult anyone and clearly it would some people. Not sure it accurately fits me anyway. My issues are with my gender not my sex.

[snip]

I just honestly don't see this one surgery as being the huge divide some people try to make it into.

But for the TRANSSEXUAL, that one surgery IS a significant factor.  And this IS the "transsexual talk" forum, so it stands to reason that you WILL find people that agree with that.  And it basically explains why the 'transgender' population will never "get" why the divide exists...and why I have NOTHING in common with that population.

[AbraCadabra]

Wham bam, thank you ma'am, that sounds pretty harsh now, doesn't it.

NOTHING in common.. eh.

Maybe not any more... there we might have a point if we completely cured form Gender Identity Dysphoria post SRS.
If not, we sure have still have some GID in common - and MAYBE some other items?

I for one, will not get prickly if some girl likes to forgo SRS, and then some just CAN'T!
Reason to have NOTHING in common...? Hm.

As I said, maybe after next week I get a changed mindset inclusive of SRS.
Funny enough I just want to be FEMALE, - woman... well, why not, comes with the territory, or?

Are we then saying MtF pre- & non-ops are not female? Ouch!
I don't even want to look across the road to our FtMs... lest I get my eyes poked out. Eina!

Let's see,
Axelle

[grrl1nside]

Wow, it doesn't take much for someone fairly new to see just how hot these embers are. Hopefully, the forest isn't too dry here... Although sometimes a good fire creates the seeds of regrowth, I'm not sure the metaphor is the same between people as the side of a mountain.

Hopefully, I can tread delicately on a few things...

Post-op folks have been through the fire of coming out to family, friends, workplace, transition, pain of surgery and adaptation to new lives and new bodies. Experienced loss and rejection... Alot of suffering. This doesnt sound to me like ingredients for snobbery...

Yes, suffering... It hopefully does not result in snobbery. However, there is no clear relationship between suffering and a uni-directional effect/result. While it could provide the grounds of leadership, I've seen people suffer who end up crippled for life at the end. I've seen groups who self-identify as comrades recognize those who have not suffered as an out-group. There are many 'veterans of battles' whether in war or social battles who do end up seeing the rest of the world as incapable of understanding. Sometimes it may lead to social isolation and/or separatism while for others it can indeed result in elitism. All I'm suggesting here is that I suspect that what you are saying is meant with goodwill, but it needs to be unpacked a little because I think there is a heck of a lot of grey in this topic and it too easily results in us/them, black/white understandings when this does not need to be the case.

I dont know if these two groups can coexist civilly, hence the questioning of the value of an umbrella concept. A separatist isnt an elitist, but recognizes that groups are not the same. There is not enough of a common bond.

Oh dear, that is a bit sad in my opinion. It reminds me of so many battles within the feminists camps/literature. I think it is important to recognise difference but also respect our similarities. In one respect, suffering is capable of establishing at least some level of 'bond'. Maybe not for one singular label (except at a very general level), but enough that perhaps we can move forward together. Suffering does not need to be the same for me to be able to share. I'm not F2M, but I can share their suffering. I've been hurt enough from ill treatment that I can feel for animals. I've been a social outcast so I can connect with others. I am not the same, but I have things in common that can allow for the means of shared understanding, dialogue, and even joint action...

For instance, much of the dialogue has been about Post-Op/Non-Op divides rather than what we share. In my opinion, long live the difference. Long live the difference.

The driving factor in most peoples behaviors is fear, not ego. It occurs in all walks of life, its just part of human nature. What are they afraid of? If that can be known, then the persons motives can be understood and can be responded to if desired.


The BIGGER the FEAR the BIGGER the EGO.
Big egos are just one BIG cover-up for insecurities.
That may be new to you, but it is JUST that. Watch those BIG EGOS crumble when the jig is up.
I have, so I do know. No YMMV, in this case.

Thinking from what I've learned in Social Theory and Game Theory, you are both taking on positions that have been oft discussed. Many people have indeed argued that we are in effect egoists and that we calculate gain (of all sorts of types), others have said that we are indeed concerned about loss and fear.  Some say that it results in 0-sum games where if one gains another loses. Others say that through iteration we can end up with cooperative behaviour. I'm in the game of the social construction of these concepts. No different than gender rules have changed, I think that while the ego and fear are real (as real as gender). In my opinion, what we fill these concepts with is far from simple and straightforward...

I don't think any of this discussion is straightforward and I have to think through my personal values all the time. For instance, I have serious problems with medicalization and how it removes power from those suffering. Hence why I stuggle with the Standards of Care. Do I play the game or not?

I have issues with taking medicine. I've always tried not to and now I get to this point in my life and I'm thinking about HRT... Causes some serious mental tension (cognitive dissonance big time)... I don't know the answer... I do know that if someone offered me the operating table right now I would be on it without batting an eyelid.

I think all of these issues are fraught with so many internal struggles for us all and we all come up with different answers. We all may be able to help each other come to self-understanding and peace. I hope that everyone finds the answer they need.

We all have different faces and gender is a lot like that. We all have one, but they don't look the same!

[Stephe]

And why I have NOTHING in common with that population.

As I stated, which possibly you missed, we both are women who have a need to be women. We just seem to have a different set of priorities as to what parts of transition are most important to us.

Now if you are saying I'm not a woman, then that's a different story. And honestly most of your posts seem to be along the lines of =If your not post-op or post-op scheduled GET OFF MY FORUM= which I hope isn't your intention. I also sense a hostility in many of your posts like maybe you feel a non-op being a woman invalidates your lifetime of suffering or?

[AbraCadabra]

Joan of Arc, :-)
as I said... you got it going +1 ...

NOW --- you do take some positions, like to be on the 'table' if it was offered. Fine.
So if the jig was up you will not hoo and haa but make a move. That's what I get.

The only caveat with your knowing, I can 'feel'?
It may be easy enough to slip into a relativist position.
This I say more from intuition and reading between your lines.

At times we, we all, need to take at stand based on our learning.
Life moves forward, so positions can, and may change.
Whether on BIG EGOS, Non- / Post-op, or Leadership for that matter.

Learing is allowed, mistakes can teach - include this here girl.

Love you all anyway :-)
Axelle

[Stephe]

All I'm suggesting here is that I suspect that what you are saying is meant with goodwill, but it needs to be unpacked a little because I think there is a heck of a lot of grey in this topic and it too easily results in us/them, black/white understandings when this does not need to be the case.

well I think one of the answers we got already explains how some feel:

"And it basically explains why the 'transgender' population will never "get" why the divide exists...and why I have NOTHING in common with that population."

Heels dug in and gates closed. Stay out until you have the same surgery as me. I see this from a lot of post-op people online.

I have issues with taking medicine. I've always tried not to and now I get to this point in my life and I'm thinking about HRT...

I do as well, started HRT earlier this year and estrogen is now not an option. AA/Spiro is the only part of HRT my body can tolerate and is a LOT better than nothing. I'm pretty sure most docs would rule out SRS because of this if nothing else. They want to see you have been on E for X amount of time.

So even if I was the "SRS or die" type, I highly doubt it would even be an option. So people who have problems like this are excluded, many times asked to leave, don't post here, -you are not really a woman- etc. One poster here, when discussing my womanhood, asked how my last gynecologist visit went. I'll let you decide how accepting of others this person is. I read a post-ops list of things they have had to deal with to transition and my list includes everything on their list minus one surgery. Yet they say they have ZERO in common with us.

I have no issues nor do I see non-ops in general having a problem with =non-op and post-op=, it's some of the post-ops who seem to have up this =non-op vs post-op= mentality.

[grrl1nside]

Hi Stephe;

I'm trying to think very hard about how to reply to your post. Sometimes when things are so hot (interesting how many fire analogies and other allusions there were in this thread) it is difficult to say anything that will not only make things more difficult.

I personally find forums and groups a challenge like this because we have so much dialogue amongst ourselves that at times it can make difference appear as if there are absolute differences where we have nothing in common. Whether it is emotion, truly felt belief, or any other reason, there is always a risk that differences can become so signficant that it approaches an absolute.

I am of the view that some of these things, whatever was said, intended or believed are better moved beyond (not necessarily forgotten by yourself, them or whoever else). The politics of rememberance and forgetting is always fascinating in my opinion whether personal or collective.

Why do I hope that it is possible to move beyond this divide while respecting that there may (or may not) be one? For lots of reasons. Because this difference now, need not always prevent us from having other conversations on all sorts of other issues where we can help others through some of our shared experiences. Because we need to all find ways to work together to make changes not just within ourselves but in our society. No matter how people present, whether in or out of the closet, whether visible with a placard or finding quiet ways to make things better, or non-op/post-op, we need to respect our differences and move forward together if it is at all possible because almost noone makes it out of our gendered world unscathed and we will need each other to slowly make the social changes that are necessary (although we probably won't all agree on what all those necessary things are).

I have my fingers crossed, but I suspect most of us would more or less agree with this. Although I bet that I can dig up a person or two who can think of something witty to throw a wrench in it.

I feel for you on the HRT front and what can be the politics of estrogen-SRS (gatekeeper, rigid time lines). There is a reason why I get very edgy about medicalising our bodies and this is a good example where it can be a means of subjection. That being said, I've heard many write on the forum that they have had very good doctors/counsellors who see the Standards of Care as a framework to work with and open to their clients reality rather than be used as a means to oppress. Hopefully, you can find someone who is willing to co-create with you so you can move in whatever direction is right for you and it certainly sounds like you are more or less happy with the direction you are moving in so I definitely respect that and am probably even a little envious. I'm still trying to figure out so much...

I was thinking about what you said here:

I have no issues nor do I see non-ops in general having a problem with =non-op and post-op=, it's some of the post-ops who seem to have up this =non-op vs post-op= mentality.

I was laughing to myself because I can only imagine what people would think if I said that I learn more from an artist friend of mine who identifies as a transgendered mind but is absolutely at peace with his male body. I can honestly tell you that in my opinion he is the most female minded person I have ever met and I learn more from him about being a woman than anyone. I don't know how he can be at peace with himself but he is (don't ask me how). I would bet that there are people who are transgendered that would challenge that he is transgendered. What am I saying? I have no clue to be honest. I suppose it is that for some post-ops that they cannot imagine how a non-op can be comfortable with themselves or truly be a woman if they don't want that last step. I'm not about to say that they are right or wrong. All I know, is that my friend gives me a hell of a lot to think about and he never says anything about these issues at all. He just makes his way in the world and leaves me scratching my head continually...

As for Axelle... Am I a relativist? Maybe... I certainly believe that our social reality is real although very much historically constructed and that it is filled with power. Do I believe that some things are more wrong than others? Yes, I do. Usually it comes down to whether someone is denying the others a voice that I get my nickers in a knot. But that opens up a can of worms too... We'll stop there because it is well beyond this thread. Phewww... I hope that worked because my brain hurts and I don't want to have to think anymore today!!! LOL...

Also, I don't know why I would jump on the table so darn fast. I don't know why I've always hated my parts. I don't know why I look in the mirror and see what should have been there but isn't. But I do... I don't really have a great desire to wear x or y clothes, or be ultra femme. I don't know why I found it so easy to agree with so many feminists but lament that they often are at each others throats... I respect that many on the forums have other things that have driven them here and their genitals may not have been the driver. So be it. All I know, is that since no one comes out unscathed I'll work with whoever to move forward.

Peace to you all...

[ByeBye]

Why is it that the poor little "Tu-Tu's" get treated so disrespectfully?

i wanna wear a tutu. <3

i wish my facial hair was gone (what little i have of it) and that i had a complete girl body.

i will have a girl body because i'm willing it to soften and feminize.

[eli77]

The above statement I quoted above is hurtful, I will say it. You and every pre-op MtF woman on this site take advantage of the Post-op and SRS forums for information, then in another breath call Post-ops not leaders, that they have no value to you.

Val, there are pre-op girls on this site who value your experience and really appreciate the time you take to talk about your transition. I certainly do. Please don't think that nobody cares about or values you. I am probably guilty of not stepping up and saying so often enough - so, thank you. The knowledge you've shared is invaluable to those of us still going through the process. (And you're also really nice. ) Much love,

Sarah

[Stephe]

Also, I don't know why I would jump on the table so darn fast. I don't know why I've always hated my parts. I don't know why I look in the mirror and see what should have been there but isn't. But I do...

I can totally relate to this but for me it was my face, not between my legs that I hated. Now that I am "post-op" on that part of me and the spiro has killed off my T both mentally and femed up my face some (+ body hair gone etc etc), I honestly feel -cured- of my GID. No anxiety about myself anymore and fell so happy every day since I could jump up and down )))) It's not about being ultra fem or dressing up in this or that clothes, it's I finally SEE a woman when I look in the mirror which is what I have known I am my whole life. I FEEL whole now for the first time in my life. I'm sure someone else would be MUCH more concerned about what's in their pants than their face, but does that mean I should be?

I've known a couple of post-ops in RL who say they are happy they are finally "whole as a woman" but what I still see when I am with them is someone who needs some minor FFS to look like a woman. I still see -guy- when I'm looking at them. I recognize and accept them as women, that's not what I'm saying. But I wouldn't be happy if I had SRS and still looked like that.

Will I seek further improvements to myself? Of course. I want to work some more on my skin tone, continue with voice therapy and not sure what else I might consider. Who know someday SRS might be something I feel I want. But -for me- this FFS surgery was the big one. I can see if someone hates some other part of themselves that reminds them constantly they are the wrong gender, that is what their focus is. Once that is fixed they will be happy like I am now.

I've learned to accept the things that I can live with and deal with the things I can't. I do still believe we all share the need to be women, we just differ in the parts of us we have to change to feel free of our old self.