Why would someone go "full time" before going on HRT or being on HRT a while?

[Stephe]

And that works for you, nothing wrong with that.

I don't want to be humored by people. I don't want people to pretend they like me when they really don't. I believe in the truth, or as close as we can get to it in our subjective perception. I want to know the truth, even if it kills me.

So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked..

I notice you and a few others here seem to obsess on every possible negative aspect of life. You assume the worst of everyone around you and also assume other people wake up every morning with their days focus being clocking TG people. Here's a fact you seem to miss, other people are too focused on themselves to pay ANY attention to you unless you stand out like a sore thumb. I understand you are extremely self conscious, that doesn't mean other people are this conscious of you. You just aren't that important and neither am I.

What you don't seem to grasp about this is being extremely self conscious and grossly wrong mannerisms etc is it makes ANYONE stand out like a sore thumb, which then makes people notice you. Of course if you choose to make yourself a focal point everywhere you go by acting strangely, you better pass visually 100%. It's no different than if you went skipping and dancing through the mall wearing a bathrobe.

Like Bev said, this attitude you, happy girl and a few others here have will preclude you from ever being happy. And I feel your goal is to spread this self loathing and negativity to others..  You may call this negativity "accurate information" when in fact it's just your own negativity trying to drag others into this dark place you have put yourself. Thank God I learned to have a more positive attitude.

Making the goal impossible to reach seems to be a way some people deal with their GID and resigning themselves from being able to do anything. Been there done that as have many others here. Many are still in that place. I only wish I had had a more positive attitude about all of this 20+ year earlier.

[Steffi]

You totally misread my post, which was intended to support Beverley's viewpoint.
I am NOT saying "If you think you Pass and are always thought to be a born female, then that is how everyone will see you"  That would be simply delusional, is bullsh1t and not to be promoted.

I said

Have people Read me?   Are they Accepting me or are they Tolerating me?
I no longer care or even wonder about it.   I am simply ME and you can like or dislike me as you choose.

It's all in ones own mind.   If I had this attitude to begin with, I wouldn't have wasted 30 years.

Many people are understandably in the mindset I was in 30 years ago - wanting to totally Pass and nothing less is acceptable.
I have eventually come to accept that the only chance to get what I truly want - to be born female - passed when sperm met egg.

I NO LONGER CARE what people think I am.   I live and present as female and consequently am treated as such in my daily life - whether other people realise the truth or not is irrelevant.
Yes, I would have FFS tomorrow if I could afford it ....... but it doesn't matter, I don't sit fretting about it because I am content to be ME.

In the final analysis, happiness and contentment is an internal construct.
A transwoman could transition, have SRS and Pass perfectly and still be unhappy, yearning that she cannot have children and for the missing years of girlhood from birth.  Our situation can never be made perfect.

The way to peace is to do the best you can and then be content to be who you are.
Confidence in who you are and how you present yourself  IS  very important in gaining acceptance in the outside world.

I am NOT supporting delusion..... nor under any, not at all.
But the truth is that once you stop giving a flying fk what anyone else thinks of you, then you are at peace and if you present confidently as female then life is perfectly ok.

we can't force ourselves to feel what we don't. To some of us, the knowledge that we pass is how we survive. And by pass, I mean that people do not know we are transgender

Then I hope that you are a perfect pass and can live with the deficiencies that will still remain, because otherwise you have a lot of pain ahead of you.
As Beverley remarks above, you may never find peace or happiness.

I might well never know peace. But I can't force myself to be ok with the idea people can read me as transgender.

Then I am truly sad for you.   I've been there and that is what stopped me transitioning and gave me a lifetime of torment.
I no longer give a damn, live and am treated as female and so am happy.   

[Stephe]

I might well never know peace.

I pray that one day you find a path to peace and happiness. Your current path will never take anyone there.

[Stephe]

I am NOT saying "If you think you Pass and are always thought to be a born female, then that is how everyone will see you"  That would be simply delusional, is bullsh1t and not to be promoted.

And I don't think any of us are saying this either You all know you can't walk around with a heavy 5 oclock shadow plainly showing etc and you will pass just because of attitude. That IS delusional.

What I am saying and have said: if you look -reasonable- AND have a good attitude, act like a woman etc, you can get away with being 95% of "perfectly 100% visually passable". Going from 95% to 100% visually  is a nightmare for most people and I've found it just isn't needed to be happy -and- be accepted.

[Asfsd4214]

So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked..

And yet, it doesn't.

How do I know? Cause I dress gender neutral, be myself and see how people react.

Also, on a separate note. You have said before how people have no right to make comments, or even have opinions about your personal life because they don't know you. And yet, you just assumed my concern about it gets me misgendered.

I notice you and a few others here seem to obsess on every possible negative aspect of life. You assume the worst of everyone around you and also assume other people wake up every morning with their days focus being clocking TG people. Here's a fact you seem to miss, other people are too focused on themselves to pay ANY attention to you unless you stand out like a sore thumb. I understand you are extremely self conscious, that doesn't mean other people are this conscious of you. You just aren't that important and neither am I.

What you don't seem to grasp about this is being extremely self conscious and grossly wrong mannerisms etc is it makes ANYONE stand out like a sore thumb, which then makes people notice you. Of course if you choose to make yourself a focal point everywhere you go by acting strangely, you better pass visually 100%. It's no different than if you went skipping and dancing through the mall wearing a bathrobe.

Ah but that's the point. I feel it IS about passing visually 100%. If being noticed gets you read, I don't consider that to be passing. Again, not that my disclaimers matter one bit. This is how *I* define passing.

Like Bev said, this attitude you, happy girl and a few others here have will preclude you from ever being happy. And I feel your goal is to spread this self loathing and negativity to others..  You may call this negativity "accurate information" when in fact it's just your own negativity trying to drag others into this dark place you have put yourself. Thank God I learned to have a more positive attitude.

Making the goal impossible to reach seems to be a way some people deal with their GID and resigning themselves from being able to do anything. Been there done that as have many others here. Many are still in that place. I only wish I had had a more positive attitude about all of this 20+ year earlier.

Except it's not impossible to reach. Many trans people DO pass completely. However some people simply aren't biologically capable of getting there. Bad genetics, waited too long to start, whatever the reason.

You can think I make the bar impossible to achieve, that I try to drag others down into my pit of hopelessness or whatever. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I am entitled to think you use your blind positivity and unreasonable expectations of passing ability as a way to cope with the fact you don't physically pass as well as you would like.

But the truth is that once you stop giving a flying fk what anyone else thinks of you, then you are at peace and if you present confidently as female then life is perfectly ok. 

An enviable quality. One I do not share. But I'm glad it works for you. All the more power to you.

Then I am truly sad for you.   I've been there and that is what stopped me transitioning and gave me a lifetime of torment.

I've already transitioned. Things are better for me now than they've ever been in my life.

And I don't think any of us are saying this either You all know you can't walk around with a heavy 5 oclock shadow plainly showing etc and you will pass just because of attitude. That IS delusional.

What I am saying and have said: if you look -reasonable- AND have a good attitude, act like a woman etc, you can get away with being 95% of "perfectly 100% visually passable". Going from 95% to 100% visually  is a nightmare for most people and I've found it just isn't needed to be happy -and- be accepted.

What I am saying is that if your goal is to pass visually/audibly 100%, which is how I define passing, then attitude won't help anything.

[Steffi]

We would ALL like to Pass 100%
Actually, we would all like to be born women, not transsexuals.
If I could be Stealth, I would - I simply accept my real circumstances.

Those of us who are over tall, masculinsised etc etc have more of a problem than those who are small and androgynous - our remarks are usually aimed for those who are struggling.

What I am saying is that if your goal is to pass visually/audibly 100%, which is how I define passing, then attitude won't help anything.

What we are saying is that unless one is utterly incongruous in role, then a confident attitude will get you treated as female and accepted as female a lot more.  It is in fact crucial to those who are not a great Pass.

I don't know whether my attitudes are "a coping mechanism" or a simple realistic acceptance of what is possible, nor care much as long as it works for me.   

I own my words.  I post with my own picture as my avatar because I have nothing to hide.  I know I am trans, assume that everyone else knows too as soon as we meet and I don't care.
I am curious though as to why you are still on trans forums?  I can understand not posting your picture if you're Stealth, but why are you even here?  If you Pass perfectly, why are you not gone and living the life of the average girl?   I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just puzzled.

[Asfsd4214]

We would ALL like to Pass 100%
Actually, we would all like to be born women, not transsexuals.
If I could be Stealth, I would - I simply accept my real circumstances.

Those of us who are over tall, masculinsised etc etc have more of a problem than those who are small and androgynous - our remarks are usually aimed for those who are struggling. What we are saying is that unless one is utterly incongruous in role, then a confident attitude will get you treated as female and accepted as female a lot more.  It is in fact crucial to those who are not a great Pass.

I don't know whether my attitudes are "a coping mechanism" or a simple realistic acceptance of what is possible, nor care much as long as it works for me.   

I own my words.  I post with my own picture as my avatar because I have nothing to hide.  I know I am trans, assume that everyone else knows too as soon as we meet and I don't care.
I am curious though as to why you are still on trans forums?  I can understand not posting your picture if you're Stealth, but why are you even here?  If you Pass perfectly, why are you not gone and living the life of the average girl?   I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just puzzled.

That's actually a really good question, one I wish I had a better answer too.

I'm not in any way involved in real life with any trans groups or trans activism, or any other trans forums apart from susans.

I guess I came to susans quite a while ago now and just never left. I've thought about leaving more than a few times. More so because of my disputes with the policies of this forum. But I try not to get myself banned so there must be something that keeps me coming back.

I like being able to help and give what I try to keep as informed advise as possible to people just starting out. I think there's a shocking number of myths in the trans community. Regarding the safety of HRT, what you can expect both positively and negatively (e.g. I do think HRT probably has a marginal but potential effect on voice, and more so a good effect on facial hair provided you're under about 23ish when you start, again depending on genetics).

Another explanation I can think of. I'm a very very bad patient. I question too much, I know more than doctors expect patients to know and would rather not have to debate about with them. I lie to doctors because I know how the system works and how to manipulate it to get what I want. I've been screwed over by psychiatrists many times and seen others screwed over. I've seen doctors give bad and conflicting advice. And yet susans is a place that advocates absolute obedience to doctors. When I get the chance, I like to give people the facts I know and conclusions I have come to and how I came to them, hopefully to help them make an informed decision regarding their bodies and their health. I want people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And if I can help, as impartially as I can, and as best I can without getting myself banned, I like too.

Plus it's a good way to pass time when I'm bored. 

[Steffi]

@  Asfsd4214
OK then

Likewise...... I've been thru the entire journey and decades of going thru ALL the stages of self-hatred, denial, struggling etc before finally finding peace very late in life.
I long ago passed the point where I was answering questions rather than asking them.
I'm appalled at some of the delusions and false information and try and give realistic and accurate answers.

I feel that I have given back, on this and other forums, far more than I ever took. 
I'm getting tired now of the never ending bickering, pedantry etc of forums and have been thinking for some time that frequent daily immersion in all-things-trans is probably becoming a negative influence on my own life. 

As this year progresses, I intend to stop moderating elsewhere, take a step or two away from trans and just drop into forums occasionally.
I just asked the question above because I wondered why you hadn't, especially as you're a better Pass.     
Thank you for answering

[Stephe]

If you Pass perfectly, why are you not gone and living the life of the average girl?

What I don't get is they say "I might well never know peace." yet they say they have reached their goal of 100% passing? They ask us not to be sad for them but clearly they aren't happy from this quote.

I am very at peace with myself and very happy. I'm not sure why anyone would want to believe in their negative viewpoint, if when at the end (and you "pass perfectly") you still are not at peace with yourself.

[Stephe]

"So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked.."

And yet, it doesn't.

How do I know? Cause I dress gender neutral, be myself and see how people react.

So how do you KNOW they aren't just humoring you? You can't possibly know what everyone is thinking.

And I'm glad that for the most part, I don't really care what they think. They treat me as a woman and that's really all I care about. If someone doesn't, that's when I have a problem.

[Asfsd4214]

"So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked.."

So how do you KNOW they aren't just humoring you? You can't possibly know what everyone is thinking.

And I'm glad that for the most part, I don't really care what they think. They treat me as a woman and that's really all I care about. If someone doesn't, that's when I have a problem.

If I don't present any other overt cues, and they read me as female, how would they even know to humor me? If you wear a dress, have a purse, act stereotypical female, then it's very obvious you're trying to be read as female, and most people will go along with it. If you are just a regular chick enjoying the freedoms of sexual equality by dressing casually and neutral, and just acting how you act, then the only way they could know what to gender you as is by your physical appearance.

Is it 100% certain from that that they read you as cis of your identified gender? Of course not. But it's far faaaar more of an accurate indication than going for broke.

What I don't get is they say "I might well never know peace." yet they say they have reached their goal of 100% passing? They ask us not to be sad for them but clearly they aren't happy from this quote.

I am very at peace with myself and very happy. I'm not sure why anyone would want to believe in their negative viewpoint, if when at the end (and you "pass perfectly") you still are not at peace with yourself.

"I will never be happy if I don't achieve x" does not mean "I will be happy if I do achieve x".
That's a logical fallacy.

I won't likely ever know peace because I have a lot of demons haunting me. The very fact I am trans, no matter how well I pass, will continue to haunt me. Nothing will ever change that.

My screwed up abusive/traumatic past is also a major source of inner turmoil for me. Nothing will repair that except perhaps time.

My low self-esteem, depression, anxiety, stepping from much of the above, is also a reason it may be a very long time before I'm at peace, if ever.

Not to sound overly dramatic, as I said, my life is far better now than its ever been before. I have a great boyfriend, I finally got away from my parent, living with each other was slowly killing both of us. We even have a better relationship now provided we don't talk about the past.

But better is not the same as being ok, at peace, content... happy.

[TraciMC]

I just curious and wish to understand others here so please don't think I am judging what you have decided is best for you.  I do see a common thread on the board that involves really unhappy people or people enduring incredible hardship and ostricism which because (In my humble best guess) they rush the Social Transition and have little chance of passing.

I just wanted to reply to the original poster, JessicaH, as I had pretty much that experience.  I started living full time over a year before I was able to start HRT (I even changed my gender marker at the DMV prior to HRT).  It took me about two years since I sought therapy for me to finally be able to get on estrogen, and that was already after initially waiting a year (effectively putting my transition on hold) because I was not yet emotionally ready to go through a break up yet.  The uber-gatekeeper therapist who finally approved me for HRT was actually the fifth therapist I had gone to, and part of the problem was that I moved to start grad school and I had to begin the whole therapy process anew.  I tried to get hormones from a clinic that prescribes to transsexuals, but I had to be a resident of the city and county, and I wasn't.  And because moving expenses and electrolysis used up all my spending money, I had to delay therapy, and thus HRT as well.  But it was the right time in my life to start living full time when I moved to go to the new university.  I didn't want people to meet me and get to know me "as a guy" and then in my second year at the university suddenly switch genders on them.  And when I moved, I had no idea it was going to take so long to get on hormones. Also, I had significant passing ability without hormones.  I had already been living for two years rather androgynously, and had been speaking with a feminine-sounding voice for most of that time.  So I already had quite a bit of experience prior to starting living full time of people ma'aming me or asking me if I was male or female.  My main impediment to passing was my facial hair, and so electrolysis was a higher priority than HRT (I didn't have much money and so I had to choose between regular therapy or regular electrolysis).  And then when I started living full time, I ran out of money and couldn't even continue the electrolysis for a while, which was a really dreadful, stressful, humiliating experience.  There were quite a few occasions that first year I knew I definitely was not passable for that reason.  I really wish I had had made more progress on clearing my face prior to starting HRT.  I know that having to live female and not always pass was at times very difficult for me.  But things had improved significantly after a few months.  Then what happened was within four or five months into HRT, I was essentially stealth.  And since I had begun dating, I suddenly had to face the dilemma of disclosure, because my status was definitely not something that was readily apparent.

[Stephe]

If I don't present any other overt cues, and they read me as female, how would they even know to humor me? If you wear a dress....

I almost never wear a dress and sometimes have left my purse in my car etc and still get ma'amed too. But in my case you would claim they are just humoring me.

What I'm saying is how do you know people don't read you and aren't just humoring -you-? Maybe some see 95% female but can still tell you used to be a guy and are being nice. Why spend your life focusing on something you can never know or have any control over? If I am being treated with respect and being treated as just another woman, I could really care less if they can also tell I am trans.

You have said to others here "People are likely just humoring you" when you have NO IDEA what other people are thinking in other people's life or your own. You can only assume. Why do you always assume and seem to cherish the most negative possible outcome? And instead of looking at someone and thinking "They look pretty and in most cases would pass", you focus on some minutia that only a doctor or an obsessed transperson would likely notice as; a dead give away.

You also assume that ALL people see transwomen as different than "real women" or all people feel that transwomen are some kind of freak show. That's yet another example of overtly negative attitude about other people's thoughts and you assume everyone is a narrow minded bigot.

I won't likely ever know peace because I have a lot of demons haunting me. The very fact I am trans, no matter how well I pass, will continue to haunt me. Nothing will ever change that.

And that is a negative reality of your own creation. Don't assume -your- negative reality is actually real. I know it's not. You can continue to hide from being trans and be ashamed of it, which you clearly are. And this attitude will also end up with you being miserable with your non-perfect self and as you said, you have already decided that nothing can change this.

Maybe instead of arguing that your CHOICE to be miserable is the best path, listen to people who are at peace with themselves and are happy. People like myself and others here who accept we are trans and it's not a barricade to happiness. I don't advertize it nor am I wanting to be clocked but I also know if I am, so what. Requiring to be perfectly stealth is a hell of your own creation.

[Steffi]

If I am being treated with respect and being treated as just another woman, I could really care less if they can also tell I am trans. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ People like myself and others here who accept we are trans and it's not a barricade to happiness. I don't advertize it nor am I wanting to be clocked but I also know if I am, so what. Requiring to be perfectly stealth is a hell of your own creation.

Exactly!
- though the mind is a strange thing.  We all have to find our own way to this state of peace. 

(....and my signature is no accident  )

[Steffi]

I have returned to post again in this thread because a way to put the concept across better has just occured to me.

There are some women who are feted for their beauty; both men and women agree that they look fabulous.
But most girls don't look like that.  They are quite pretty, but fairly plain-Jane's in comparison.
Would those girls like to look like the feted beauties?  Very probably - and furthermore the media is always pushing those standards in their face too!
But they don't look like that and they know it, especially the girls who are well below average prettiness for whatever reason.
They HAVE to come to terms with that, each and every girl out there ....... and they do.
They don't walk around thinking they are not beautiful enough or wondering whether people are looking at them and thinking "She's not as pretty as Cheryl Cole" or whoever.
They might look at these other women and think in passing "I wish I had her skin" or whatever but that's it, a fleeting thought.
They come to terms with who they are, learn to make the best of what they have  and simply get on with their lives. 
- What other choice is there anyway?

WE have reached the same point.  We are happy enough with who we are.

[Steffi]

I've reported your post to the moderator

Good luck with that, because I don't see ANYTHING wrong with the post in question, nor any of her other posts here.   *shrugs*
The choice of the word "Choose" was possibly unwise as it's open to misinterpretation - IMO it was clearly used in a context which was intended to say "this is a mental problem, not a physical one"

We're not deluded and assuming no-one reads us as trans - we simply don't give a damn.  (...as long as they're not stomping on our face)
Once you can reach that inner balance, you have peace.

I am not dissing you - I do understand your pain because I HAVE lived it myself,  believe me I have.

I cannot tell you how to quickly get to the happy state of mind - If I could, I would.  I have in fact been trying to.  But it is something you have to work out and find for yourself because there is no other way.   The trans people I met 30 years ago told me this then, but it took me all this time to get there.
You DO need to overcome your inner non-acceptance of yourself as trans ...... and just be happy to be you.  Once you manage that, you won't even be asking yourself whether people have read you or not.

I hope that you find peace of mind for yourself soon.   

[Asfsd4214]

   Good luck with that, because I don't see ANYTHING wrong with the post in question, nor any of her other posts here.   *shrugs*
The choice of the word "Choose" was possibly unwise as it's open to misinterpretation - IMO it was clearly used in a context which was intended to say "this is a mental problem, not a physical one"

I have no ill will towards any other poster here, just Stephe because of her attitude. Everyone else has been civil and hasn't tried to strawman my replys.

In the context you say it say it's in, it's no better.

As I said, it's like calling gay a mental choice.

The rules stipulate...

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

I think it can reasonably construed as a personal attack.

If I said "Just because you CHOOSE to be transgender doesn't mean it's not your own sexual perversions". Aimed at you personally. Would you not consider it a personal attack?

[peky]

Several years ago I got fed up with playing the male role so I let my hair grow, changed clothing, and told family, coworkers, and friends that I have always been a she, and asked them to call me "Peky." After a few years living as a woman my personal doctor suggested -and accepted- to go in spiro. After a year or so I saw a psychiatrist for one session. The psychiatrist sent me to an endo who put in me in E. Now I am thinking having SRS next year.

I never wonder about the "passing issue" as it was never my goal; my goal was just to live happy by be myself.

I have read many of the post in this thread, and it seems that everybody had taken a different path dictated by their unique situation.

Peky

[Stephe]

If I said "Just because you CHOOSE to be transgender doesn't mean it's not your own sexual perversions". Aimed at you personally. Would you not consider it a personal attack?

Sure it might be but what I said was -you are choosing to be miserable over the fact you were born transgendered-. You can't change being transgendered. But you can change how you feel about the fact that you are transgendered, huge difference.

You said "The very fact I am trans, no matter how well I pass, will continue to haunt me. Nothing will ever change that"

Being 'haunted' over being trans is a hell of your own creation. You say -nothing can change this- when in fact YOU have the ability to change this if you wanted to. For what ever reason you choose not to. I have changed from years ago hating that I am trans and being ashamed of it to learning to accept and in some ways I now embrace it. Others have posted they have too. If you would stop lashing out from this position of misery for a minute you would see we are TRYING to help you.

[Steffi]

Well said above Stephe.   (.... and I understood what you were trying to say and the intent in the line that was found offensive)
@  Asfsd4214
After Stephe's post there is no need for me to respond to your last question.

YOU have the ability to change this if you wanted to. For what ever reason you choose not to. I have changed from years ago hating that I am trans and being ashamed of it to learning to accept and in some ways I now embrace it.

Me too.

I'm bored with this thread now - I've given what help I can, to the point of repeating myself in different ways.

As my last word here, take a look at this thread where a BORN WOMAN says

Envy of female delicacy is something I understand very well even as a cisgendered girl.  I can never ever wear heels because I am a hulking 5 11 girl.  ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  I envy envy envy so much those petite girls around 5 7 who seem to have miraculously been born with flat stomachs and thin body.

I have issues with an enlarged mons pubis.  I'm serious when I tell you that if you reached down the front of my pants my mons pubis is probably bigger than any penis you will ever find.  So I can't wear tight fitted skirts or pants that ride up because I have a camel toe that looks like I decided to stop giving birth and throw on a pair of stretch pants.

I envy envy envy those Playboy type gals that are fit and tiny and sexy.   I have been called  a ->-bleeped-<- many times.  I've also had people just flat out call me sir on several occasions.    And I'm cis.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,115632.msg887997.html#msg887997