Difference between androgyne *Identity* and androgynous *expression*

[Sevan]

So now that we have our new section about Expression, Appearance and Style I think it would be good for us to define and explain the differences between this area, and the "Androgyne talk" section it's housed in.

It's rather simple really. As with any other identity, the androgyn identity is how you feel about yourself inside. The outside may or may not reflect that.

Expression is all about what's on the outside.

When it comes to androgynous expression we can muddle the waters a little. We have different groups of people who might come to androgynous expression for very different reasons.

The first group would be those who experience the androgyne identity and desire to have their outsides match their insides. (though let's be clear on that...not all feel the need/desire. Which is perfectly fine!)

There are MtF's or FtM's who embark on their journey and pass through an androgynous appearance on their way to expressing in a more congruent fashion.

Then there are those who express themselves androgynously but it's not tied to any one identity but it's an expression of fashion statement.

Any of these groups may come here to discuss Expression, appearance and/or style.

I'd love to see a discussion on this if appropriate/desired.

[Julian]

Great post, Sevan.

I wouldn't mind seeing a discussion, but I'm not quite sure what a discussion on this would entail. Perhaps those of us who choose to adopt an androgynous presentation explaining why we choose to present the way we do? Or is that fodder for another thread?

[Sevan]

Great post, Sevan.

I wouldn't mind seeing a discussion, but I'm not quite sure what a discussion on this would entail. Perhaps those of us who choose to adopt an androgynous presentation explaining why we choose to present the way we do? Or is that fodder for another thread?

Hmm I think that might make a great new thread!

I wasn't sure if there was much need of discussing the differences between identity and expression but I always wnqt to leave it open.

[ativan]

Just remember that androgynous is an expression of appearance.
You can look androgynous and not be Androgyn
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous
If You are Androgyn and look androgynous, you don't.
You then look androgyn. Which can have a look of androgynous, but it isn't.

Ativan

[foosnark]

This may not be important to others, but for me it is...

Presentation is your public face.  Expression is an outward sign of an internal truth.

There's a lot of overlap.

Presentation is what hits other peoples' senses.  Expression is sort of the why and how of it, and doesn't have to be understood by anyone else, or even oneself.

I don't even know if I'm making sense.  I just know that it was expression that the not-male part of me was crying out for, but I feel I present as male.

[Pica Pica]

Presentation always strikes me as part of 'presenting'. That there is a slight performative aspect to it that is not the internal truth of identity. It just feels a little fake to me.

[mimpi]

Presentation always strikes me as part of 'presenting'. That there is a slight performative aspect to it that is not the internal truth of identity. It just feels a little fake to me.

That's true, however it's true for all adults in this world. Part of human psychology which itself is multi faceted. Is presentation the mask as Jung would have it or is it merely controlled by other elements: subconscious, super ego, ego, id and all the rest?

Some of us are just mask and fake to the core, Tony Blair being an obvious example. He can't even hide his falsity, it's embarrassing.

[Kinkly]

for ome people the way they present is very important to them.
within the binary trans world there is a lot of talk on "Passing." and that non passing trans people are "bad for the community".
for androgynes some of us need to express our inner selves others of us need to pass as the opposite of our birth assigned gender.
or to just be seen as who we know ourselves to be.
I need to be seen as "not normal gender" so I have a "possitive androgonous appearence" seen by many as "gender >-bleeped-<".  I do It to present as who I am.  I don't do It for the shock value,  I don't do it to be confusing.  I do It because I can no longer Hide who I am.

[MichelleHart]

This may not be important to others, but for me it is...

Presentation is your public face.  Expression is an outward sign of an internal truth.

There's a lot of overlap.

Presentation is what hits other peoples' senses.  Expression is sort of the why and how of it, and doesn't have to be understood by anyone else, or even oneself.

I don't even know if I'm making sense.  I just know that it was expression that the not-male part of me was crying out for, but I feel I present as male.

At least to me, this makes perfect sense.  IMHO we all try and present ourselves to the world, in such a way as to feel comfortable with who we are.  Presenting as neither male nor female, is somewhat hard to do unless we find people around us that cannot see gender in anything such as clothing, mannor of expression, body shape...etc. 

Expressing ourselves as a complete package of both sides of the gender equation allows others to see that we can express ourselves in such a way as to bridge that gap and allow a free flow of thoughts and ideas from both perspectives. 

[Cade]

My expression tends to be practical: I get my hair cut very short because I hate going to get my hair cut, so very short makes it take longer till I have to get it cut again. I wear jeans and sweatshirts because that's the most comfortable clothing for me; style means nothing to me. (Color is important, though; if reflects my mood or gives me some level of personal power when I lack it or lets me blend into the background when I don't want it. I select my t-shirt color "carefully.")

My presentation tends to be male. I do not have any of the typical female trappings (jewelry, make-up, feminine clothing) and hence am taken as male.

[Winter(howl)]

I actually find this topic really interesting because I'm sort of newly identifying myself as Androgyne.  I am physically female and have a large chest so...regardless of how I dress I am obviously female.

I tend to not go all one-way or the other and actually sometimes find myself in conflict with myself in deciding how to dress on a particular day/evening or for a particular event/outing.

I don't typically wear makeup as I like to be comfortable and don't really like 'stuff' on my skin but then sometimes, I do...although it's really just base and lipstick.  I like to dress down most of the time but often feel like I should be displaying more of my feminine side as well.  Yes, I'm confused, lol.  When did it become obvious? 

[Kaelin]

I'm looking at the original post, and I'm having trouble making full sense of the differences laid out between the first type ("androgyne") and ("androgynous but not androgyne"), and in particular it stems from the idea of motivation.  If someone identifies as "androgyne," then we're reasonably sure that's where the person falls, and if someone dresses androgynously for the sake of being bold or for fitting in, then the person most probably falls into the latter type.  But I think there would be a decent number of people who (would like to) wear items that happen to be gender-incongruent or gender-b(l)ending on the basis of their internal interest in what said clothes offer (a feeling that comes from within) that doesn't pay attention to social cues, but they may not feel they have an "androgyne identity" (and any resistance would be regarded as society being unnecessarily narrow -- not that they're in it for a confrontation).  My gut feeling is that they would still be androgynes despite not identifying as such -- TSs tend to not identify as TS or MtF/FtM but instead as as their gender ("man" or "woman"), so it wouldn't be the first time such a departure has occurred.

[Padma]

True. Labels are just models, and models are never more than convenient approximations. And there's always a furry line between the labels people choose for themselves, and the ones others choose for them. (Furry? I meant fuzzy, but I like furry ). So someone may be happy having androgyne qualities or an androgyne appearance, without needing or identifying with the androgyne label.

[Julia Erin]

But I think there would be a decent number of people who (would like to) wear items that happen to be gender-incongruent or gender-b(l)ending on the basis of their internal interest in what said clothes offer (a feeling that comes from within) that doesn't pay attention to social cues, but they may not feel they have an "androgyne identity" (and any resistance would be regarded as society being unnecessarily narrow -- not that they're in it for a confrontation).  My gut feeling is that they would still be androgynes despite not identifying as such -- TSs tend to not identify as TS or MtF/FtM but instead as as their gender ("man" or "woman"), so it wouldn't be the first time such a departure has occurred.

I think this is sort of where I fall on the gender spectrum.  I feel that if I had complete freedom to wear whatever I wanted without anyone caring, I would probably still dress semi-masculine, but just borrow different items from the more 'feminine' side of fashion as I felt like.  For example, I really like how skirts look and feel, but lots of times when I'm trying to get things done I want my clothes to be more utilitarian, so I would probably still wear jeans a fair amount even if I had all other options available. 

I felt for a long time that I was just a "crossdresser" and that was that.  Not that there's anything wrong with that label, but I don't think that it describes me perfectly.  I was in Tri-Ess for a while, but they (like lots of other crossdressing groups I think) were very focused on getting the whole presentation right, head to toe.  And I understand why.  I guess that if I genuinely felt that I was female inside, head to toe, then it would be a little different, but I don't really feel that way.  So dressing up all the way, while I don't deny that it's lots of fun,   still felt like kind of a costume or performance to me. 

One thing that I like to do is have at least one thing that's different about me in my appearance, that most guys don't do or wear.  Something that at least gives a hint that I might be interested in more 'feminine' things than most guys are.  Like longer hair, or androgynous jewelry, or more colorful clothes.  I would love to wear nail polish more, but I don't feel like I can get away with too much of that.

[Shantel]

I actually find this topic really interesting because I'm sort of newly identifying myself as Androgyne.  I am physically female and have a large chest so...regardless of how I dress I am obviously female.

I tend to not go all one-way or the other and actually sometimes find myself in conflict with myself in deciding how to dress on a particular day/evening or for a particular event/outing.

I don't typically wear makeup as I like to be comfortable and don't really like 'stuff' on my skin but then sometimes, I do...although it's really just base and lipstick.  I like to dress down most of the time but often feel like I should be displaying more of my feminine side as well.  Yes, I'm confused, lol.  When did it become obvious? 

Winter,
     My initial response and photo was irritating to me and I changed it to add the following thoughts; I could quote your post and only change the gender terms and it would be completely me although my confusion is a thing of the past erased by the concept non-binary, something a lot of us should all consider before submitting for a lot of chopping, slicing and dicing by surgeons.

[Shantel]

LearnedHand "Henry" posted an excellent article in the Arts and Entertainment forum entitled "Bashing Binaries." It is an inspiring presentation! Heather Cassils is without a doubt the epitome of non-binary androgynous expression and quite a celebrated artist within GLBTQ circles, it's an excellent article and well worth the time to read and watch the videos!

[Asche]

... I think there would be a decent number of people who (would like to) wear items that happen to be gender-incongruent or gender-b(l)ending on the basis of their internal interest in what said clothes offer (a feeling that comes from within) that doesn't pay attention to social cues, but they may not feel they have an "androgyne identity" (and any resistance would be regarded as society being unnecessarily narrow -- not that they're in it for a confrontation).

I think this describes me.

Of course, it's not just clothes.  Society has a whole bunch of things it has labeled as "M" or "F", and if you've been branded "M", you're not allowed to even want anything from the "F" box (and vice versa.)  Emotions, colors, hobbies, occupations, ways to sit and stand, etc.  If some of the things you've always wanted are in the "wrong" column, what do you do?  Society (grudgingly) admits the possibility of re-branding, via SRS (but not before, Pvt. Manning!), but selecting two from column F and three from column M is still forbidden.

Now that I've become an old grouch, I finally feel free to say "[explitive deleted] that!"

[Gewaltraud]

As far as appearance is concerned, I have a unisex hairstyle (just a regular mohawk) and I wear what I feel comfortable in, which is often a mixture of "typical female" clothing and "typical male" clothing. I consider boots to also be unisex and boots is all I gots!

As far as identity is concerned, I don't do anything deliberately androgynous and I identify as female, but probably only because "choosing one of two sexes" has been so ingrained in society's view of sex/gender. If I had it my way, I would have no "business" at all "down there" because genitalia of any kind disgusts me. Well, on me. On others, I don't really give a >-bleeped-<. I can't even stand taking baths or full-body mirrors when I'm in my nudey pants because I can't stand seeing "parts" on me. It makes me shudder and I get all disgusted and grossed out. I believe it's for this reason that I'm also virtually asexual, despite the fact that I am attracted to women. It's all very confusing...

Not only can I not stand to look at myself, I can't stand to touch myself and I don't like for others to touch me (there) either. I'm on a daily guilt trip as a married individual, b'cause my wife is a "perfectly normal" lesbian who has needs and desires I can't fulfill due to my self-disgust. I don't know what to do. If there's a legally surgery that aesthetically "neuter" someone and/or if I'd even want this surgery... I'm seriously so lost and, for my poor wife's sake, desperate for a solution. Suggestions? Ideas? HELP! 

[Ev]

I have come to view myself, for lack of better terms, as an androgynous trigender.  I have three modes of dress: socially feminine (Evelyn), socially masculine (Evan) and my adrogynous attire (Ev.)  However, within them all, there is a more "feminine" touch because I am just a soft person all-round.  My identity is androgyne, but I am what I like to call a "role-filler" and don't mind wearing dresses or slacks if the situation calls for it.  Call me Evelyn if you view me as female, or call me Evan if you view me as male.  If you don't care either way, use Ev.  None of it bothers me a lick.  I am me.  I leave the lables for others to slap on me, and if I like it I'll wear it with pride.  If it doesn't fit, well, then I will have to ask myself is it justified?  Whatever gets them through.  I am not a confrontational person and will avoid fighting up until there is absolutely no other option.  If letting them call me "man" or "woman" keeps the peace, then the peace shall be kept.  You only live once and arguing with stubborn narrow-minded people is a waste of time.

I know who I am even if I am yet to put it to words they understand.  (A funny situation that is, seeing as to how I am a published author.)

I want to go through the MTF process, however, because quite frankly I can't stand my own penis.  There is no other way to put it.  It hurts me, actually, in more ways than one.  If someone had a toxic/failing kidney, bad tonsils, or a ruptured appendix they would remove it, right?  If they needed corrective eye surgery to fix their vision they would get it done if they felt the need, I hope.  For me the penis is just an organ and if altering it eases my suffering than by all means I am going to do it.  Even after the change...and hormones if needed...I will still identify as androgyne.  To me the penis/vagina/genitals has nothing to do with gender roles: it is an organ, nothing more and nothing less.

[Satinjoy]

This thread, and the entire term "androgyn", has confused me a little.

I understand non-binary, as a psychological state.

However, as a physical state, I am genderqueer.  But if  you were to take my pic, you would have a male head with long hair and a beautiful face with some yucky facial hair that needs to be there, a knockout female body at half transition, and something different in the unseen place that goes with that beard.

Now if I look at a stutue of androgyne on wikipedia, there I am. 

The only thing that ever makes sense to me is non binary, in here.  But in the outside world, it would be much easier to id as androgyne, for that is what my no-op hormonally transitioned female body is.  DES wired central nervous system and endo system and bone structure... simple as that, but not intersex, a womb transition for me.  not to overcomplicate but it is fascinating anyway.

Presentationally, not concerned, male, female, half, depends on social, fluidity, mood, anything.  Whatever there, mostly stealth anyway out the door, and nails out and hair down openly genderqueer, conservatively dressed.  I keep the boobs loosely covered but not fattened.

So, am I technically androgyne?  Or genderqueer?  The mind and core is neutral and somewhat amused by the whole thing.

The only thing I really understand, is I belong here with all of you.  And I love that.