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The infighting gets us nothing!

Started by Miniar, October 16, 2011, 11:14:03 AM

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Miniar

I don't come 'round here too often any more and usually, when I do, I read up on moderation reports and read through a couple threads and then I get frustrated, even angry, and I close the tab and have to go do something else to calm down...

Heck, sometimes reading political news is a good "calming" activity after reading through yet another thread full of the same infighting and identity policing that's been going 'round for a while now and it is getting to be too much for me.

I'm the sort that tries his best to write from a calm, reasonable, rational standpoint which  means I have made it a habit to walk away, catch my breath, calm down and think things through before I start typing.
Obviously, when something really pisses me off whenever I come around the amount of posting I actually do drops down pretty far pretty fast.

Still, this place is for "ranting" and I really need to get these thoughts out at least this once.

You know what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to the "you're not really transsexual unless you X/Y/Z" debate and the stacks of accusations that come with it.

I'm gonna start with two tiny little sentences just to express the core of my sentiment and what'll follow.

Our rights will never be equal if we keep denying them to each other.

No two human beings are a 100% identical in any way.

- The rights that transsexual people have been fighting for since the first trans person stood up and dared seek it for herself is the right to be themselves, the right to having a body that they can live with and fits their identity as closely as possible, the right to be recognized as a human being, as themselves, and  the right to be free of oppression and abuse.
One of the things in this debate that angers me is the suggestion that non-op trans persons are impeding the current fight or demeaning those that have fought for trans rights in the past or even damaging what progress this fight for these basic human rights has already accomplished.
The implication is that by asking for the same rights as others the non-op is depriving them of their rights.

I don't know about you, but this right there is possibly the most insulting part of the debate to me.

It's not a new argument either, it's been used every time a minority has sought out some basic human rights for themselves to push a part of the minority down for not complying with a standard of being or presenting which is thrust upon them with considerable force.
For example, bisexuals (and other people who don't fit into homosexuality or heterosexuality as an accurate description of their sexual orientation) get this form of guff from homosexuals both in the form of outright bigotry and denial that their  sexual orientation is even real as well as in the form of the accusation that their existence and open presentation as themselves is impeding the current fight, demeaning "all" homosexuals but especially those that have fought for gay rights in the past and even damaging what rights they've already obtained.

It is impossible for someone to reduce your rights or get in the way of you having your rights simply asking to be given human rights that others have or are also asking for while not fitting some standard they never agreed to themselves and continuing to suggest it takes the responsibility away from where it lies, with the system that denies us all our rights.
It's not the trans woman who chooses to live with her penis that makes society mock you, deny you work or housing, deny you medical help, deny you any number of human rights you are being denied. It's society's ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia.
Furthermore, when you accuse others of this, you are adding to the ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia by taking it and making it your own and using it to oppress others.

We all just want to be ourselves.
Period.
End of story!
I don't prevent you from being you by being me and you don't prevent me from being me by being you!

But when we accuse one another of getting in the way of equal rights simply by existing and being different from ourselves then we've started doing something other than just "being ourselves", we've started policing what others are allowed to be to deserve the same rights as we have or want.
And when we start doing that then we are no longer fighting to be treated as "equal" but we've started fighting to be treated as superior.

- There's another point that makes me angry, nowhere near as angry as the above one in and of itself but it frustrates me to no end and I feel I've addressed it repeatedly and what makes me angry is that it appears like people either don't understand why it's problematic or they just don't care.

It's the focus on genital surgery.

See, this frustrates me to no end for a couple of reasons.

There's the obvious (to me) problem of defining each other by their genital status when we are all here because society defined us by our genitals in the past and they defined us wrong. (I'm going to expand on this before I address the second main reason.)
I've brought this up repeatedly, and I've seen others bring this up repeatedly, but this doesn't seem to slow down the regurgitation of this point at all.

I mean, is it really that hard?

We are brought up in a society that takes a peek at our genitals at birth and exclaims penis = a boy, will grow up to be a man, get a job, marry a woman, get her pregnant, etc. vulva = a girl, will grow up to be a woman, get a job, marry a man, get pregnant, etc.
We are the people who end up saying "No, I'm not a boy/girl even if I have a vulva/penis."
We come here to get away from society that keeps telling us that we're delusional cause we're obviously boys/girls cause we have penises/vulvas to be allowed to be ourselves, talk to one another, share our experiences, look for advice and support from other people who can understand that just cause you have a penis/vulva doesn't mean you're a boy/girl.

To come here, and to other places like this, and get told that if we don't do everything humanly possible to get rid of the penis/vulva we're obviously boys/girls is a pretty big let down.

I mean, if I wanted someone to tell me I'm a delusional girl I'd go to a forum full of bigoted asses.

I don't know about you, but my genitals do not make me a girl!
They didn't when I was born.
They didn't 10 years ago.
They don't today!

We've all had the conversation with some idiot who can't get over what's in our pants, that can't stop defining us by their contents, that can not understand that the presence of a penis is not the be all end all definition of whether or not you are a man, if it was then we wouldn't exist!

And that brings us to the second part of why this argument sets me off.
"Except if you're FTM"

This comment often comes up as an attempt to show some meager understanding for the fact that trans men do not have as good options as trans women but it's such a disgusting comment when shown in context of where it's being used that it does nothing to actually help.
It's tucked into a conversation wherein transsexuality is being defined by genital surgery plans and gender (no, not sex, gender) is being defined by genital status or plans for genital surgery. Where women are being defined by the presence of or plan for a vagina (not "desire" for, plan for).

There's such a hypocritical nature to the argument especially when it comes with that little tag right there.
I'm not defined by my genitals because the results of surgeries available to me are not as good as results of surgeries available to women, who are then defined repeatedly in the span of a short post by their genitals, denied their womanhood, because... penis.
But it's okay, I don't need to have a penis to count as a guy, cause I'm FTM.

I do not want any effing charity!
I do not want to be an effing exception!

I am a man.
Period.
End of effing story!

Not because I have a penis.
Not because I can't get a penis surgically created that is sufficiently natural looking and functioning to be worth the surgical risks (in my opinion, in relation to my own body, no one else's.)
Not because I'm allowed to be a man with a vagina because I'm FTM.

But because I was born a man.

I am no more a man now than I was 10 years ago, and I'm no less a man now than I was 10 years ago.

I really shouldn't have to say that, considering the first problem with this general point, but apparently I do, and that pisses me off.
I'm not the exception to the rule, I am the rule. I am a man who was born with a body that did not and does not fit the standard configuration of a male body.
It's not a woman's body, it's mine, I'm a man, therefore it's a man's body.

I have had to explain the fact that I am a man, that I identify as male, that it doesn't matter whether I'm wearing a dress or wearing slacks, that it doesn't matter whether I have long hair or short, and that it doesn't matter whether I have a penis or a vagina, I identify as male, I know I'm a man, to a lot of people.
If there was one group of people I would never have believed that I would have to explain this to is others who have had to explain the same to people around them!

- And this infighting and bickering and so on... it doesn't help anyone.

Not only does it hurt us as individuals to have our identities disrespected by "our own", but it hurts our cause in seeking equal rights!

One of the central points of seeking trans rights, at least where I'm from, is and has been that women who identify as women are women and men who identify as men are men and that they should be treated as the men and women they are and given what help they need, as individuals, to live!

The only problem with that point, in my opinion, is that it's too binary and it doesn't allow human beings to simply be themselves.

See, what happens when we, trans people, start pointing at each other and saying "you're not really transsexual" is that we're also telling each other "you're not really a man/woman" and when this comes with a genital focus it equates gender with sex and that's not a step towards being recognized by our gender when our sex differs from it.

And all this energy we waste on policing each other's identity and defining each other and hurting each other and ruining any remote chance of cohesion could be put into actually bloody working towards getting the rights we all want, the rights we all deserve, regardless of whether or not we want to let someone take a razor sharp blade to our genitals or not!

- I am so horribly fed up, sick to death, of seeing this bickering and identity policing and the hurt feelings and angry posts and I know, I know I'm quite probably going to see more of it as a response to this post, but I can't keep quiet any longer.
I'm tired, I'm sore, and I'm fed up.

It makes this site into yet another battleground, and I came here because I needed support, advice, and acceptance from people who understood that I am not my genitalia, not to fight battles.

I'm intending to make this the last post I make on the subject, but that may not mean I'm done lurking.
Like I said, this whole thing is just too angering for me to be around it much.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Devlyn

So well said. I am a crossdresser, I'm not even leaning towards surgery. My reasons for coming here are friendship, support, and advice. Hugs, Tracey
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VeryGnawty

I don't buy into the argument that surgery = trans

That argument just seems way too similar to me to the arguments that the general population uses to oppress us.  I don't see why you have to have a a crotchstick to be a man, or a hole in your underside to be a woman.  While it's desirable for most of us to have these things, I don't see why it should be a defining factor.  That just seems very silly to me.  That is the exact same thinking that caused us to be oppressed to begin with.
"The cake is a lie."
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Valeriedoeswcs

The view being expressed is that surgery is simply an elective option and not medically required for the patients health and well-being. By removing the emphasis on genitals, you are saying it is not necessary ...maybe just an option for some. Am I reading this wrong? This is what I am reading in your denial of genitals, that genitals are not important. That it simply isnt important or necessary.

QuoteIt's not the trans woman who chooses to live with her penis that makes society mock you, deny you work or housing, deny you medical help, deny you any number of human rights you are being denied. It's society's ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia.
Furthermore, when you accuse others of this, you are adding to the ignorance, arrogance and xenophobia by taking it and making it your own and using it to oppress others.
For those expressing that option publicly, primarily long term non-ops, declares to the world that SRS is a choice, similarly as being gay is a choice. With the notion of it being only a choice publicly, this can affect the publics sentiment which would have a very real harmful effect on future women's ability to have surgery and transition their sex. Why would you or anyone want to do that?

Why is the sentiment that SRS is only elective and just a choice so prevalent here? What about all the women who have had SRS on this site since the site began?

Why the rallying around folks who have done nothing actively to declare their gender publicly other than perhaps take some pills or nothing, when there are people stepping into the workplace facing real crisis and danger and losing jobs? Why not spend efforts on those folks?

Instead there is so much rhetoric about choice. Do what you want. The infighting comes down to surgery as choice or medically necessary.

There are many people here doing what they need to do, doing what is necessary for their health. People very afraid. It would be much more helpful to rally around those people instead of casting anger at those who have medical needs for their health.
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Annah

Miniar, you have summed up this issue perfectly!

Genitals do not define us, we define ourselves.

Personally, I can never understand (and will never understand) how some people who have been the object of ridicoule and subjugation based upon their own gender identity will do the same thing to others.

I would assume that because we go through the condemnation of an ignorant society telling us we have to be a girl cause we have a vulva or we have to be a boy because we have a penis, that it is more appalling, shocking, and hypocritical (as well as ironic) that a trans person could have the audacity to the very same type of attacks to other trans who do not fit their mold.

The only peace of mind I have in all of this is the fact that these type of trans who force gender identity on other trans based on what they do or do not have between their legs is a growing minority...and it's getting smaller as time passes.

Another peace of mind i have is the fact that the medical community (gender therapists, psychiatrists, endocrinologists, etc) also see's our gender identity based upon how we see ourselves versus what is between our legs. You can see this in the simple fact that hormone replacement therapy is prescribe to non ops as well. If the medical community truly felt that only trans people who are getting surgery are the only real trans women out there, then they would never prescribe medication to non ops.

80 years ago, the trans definition may have been one thing. But the wonderful aspect of medical practice, ethics, and terminology is that they adapt, they change, and they evolve. And rightly so!

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Valeriedoeswcs

Then why have surgery? Just cancel yours if genitals are not important to you.

QuoteThe only peace of mind I have in all of this is the fact that these type of trans who force gender identity on other trans based on what they do or do not have between their legs is a growing minority...and it's getting smaller as time passes.

So you are also saying that SRS is only a choice? That more and more dont need it?

It sounds like there has been a cure somehow.

Whatever happened to body incongruence or GID? Is this a social movement your speaking of, of gender variance? If so, nothing wrong with that. But there are still people requiring that their body be congruent to resolve a condition which has debilitated them.
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Annah

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 12:42:34 PM

Why is the sentiment that SRS is only elective and just a choice so prevalent here? What about all the women who have had SRS on this site since the site began?

Because for some trans people, SRS to them is a choice and for others, it is a must have. For me, I see my SRS as a choice. As I told my therapist, that if I could not have SRS surgery for some reason, that would be fine for me. I could have lived without it.

Likewise, I know for some girls, they cannot live without and must have the srs to feel complete.

Both arguments of position are valid. What people are upset about is not the ones who felt they HAD to have SRS surgery to feel complete but the fact that *some* girls find those who see SRS as a choice as being wrong.

Both, the choice or the must have, are both right. It depends on the person.

QuoteWhy the rallying around folks who have done nothing actively to declare their gender publicly other than perhaps take some pills or nothing, when there are people stepping into the workplace facing real crisis and danger and losing jobs? Why not spend efforts on those folks?

Gender identification is not measured by what year someone came out of the closet or whether or not they are fulltime in there chosen gender identificaiton. Gender identification is not measured by how many therapy sessions one goes through.  Gender identification is not measured by whether or not one is on HRT. Gender Identification is not measured by how many times someone goes to a job interview dressed in their chosen gender.

Gender identification is measured by the person her/himself.

QuoteInstead there is so much rhetoric about choice. Do what you want. The infighting comes down to surgery as choice or medically necessary.

There are many people here doing what they need to do, doing what is necessary for their health. People very afraid. It would be much more helpful to rally around those people instead of casting anger at those who have medical needs for their health.

And those who feel that they MUST have SRS should have srs. But don't point fingers at people who feel that it is a choice for them and then say "you're wrong and you are not really a medically bonafide transsexual if you feel that you don't need it."  That's just silly and ignorant.
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Annah

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 16, 2011, 12:46:45 PM
Then why have surgery? Just cancel yours if genitals are not important to you.

So you are also saying that SRS is only a choice? That more and more dont need it?

It sounds like there has been a cure somehow.

Whatever happend to body incongruence or GID? Is this a social movement?

See my above post. No, SRS was not necessary for me. I could have lived without it and I would have been a girl without it.
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Valeriedoeswcs

Dont you think declaring it is a choice tells the public funding or assistance isnt necessary? Isnt it logical that this can have a very serious negative effect on the future of trans care?

Cmon, this is important for those people coming after us that need public assistance.

Well, thats my opinion anyway. I know it is a minority here.
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Annah

no i dont think so.

They asked very little questions about it because I am covered. They only asked who I was having the surgery with, checked to see if it fell in their policy coverage area, asked about aftercare, etc. They never asked me "so do you HAVE to have this or is it just one of those things. Based on my therapy reports sent to them, they knew it was a choice for me.

And insurance companies do realize the fact that SRS is necessary and a must for some trans people so they aren't going to judge coverage on a person by person basis in the US if you fall under corporate coverage guidelines of have the coverage in your contract.

If SRS is covered at your company and you meet the requirements of the insurance company for SRS (which they use WPATH) then you will have the surgery.

I worked at Liberty Mutual. I seen the behind the scenes of this.

The only thing you have to really fight for is disability insurance coverage if your company has it because many disability companies has srs listed as an elective and some do not (depending on your company's contract of disability insurance)....which is different than medical insurance.
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Valeriedoeswcs

Okay, maybe your right then. Maybe it is a choice for many. Maybe it being viewed as a choice to the public wont harm anyone.

Good luck with your surgery.
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 16, 2011, 01:13:30 PM
And I was not born male. I am not MTF. I was born a transsexual female and surgery will not change that. In six months once I've "proved" my identity to my government, the error made on my birth certificate will be corrected. It will not be amended to say I became female. It will say that on March 29, 1984 a female child named Sarah was born.

You go, girl  ;D
"The cake is a lie."
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Shana A

I agree, infighting gets us absolutely nowhere. I've been here for a few years, and seen many people leave, some who'd become good friends. Some who left were post op, some pre-op, some non-op, androgyne, genderqueer, etc. I believe that many have left for the same reason, an underlying feeling of intolerance for who they were and for others like them at this forum.

If we are truly to be a support site, then we all need to make an effort to understand each other, listen to our respective stories and empathize with the pains and sorrows we have each experienced. It's OK to be different, interestingly some of my best friends here at Susan's aren't like me at all, they have walked/chosen very different paths than mine. Same goes for my offline life.

I want the same thing for everyone here; equal rights in society to be ourselves, and for each to be free from discrimination because of who they happen to be and how they happen to live. No matter how different.

Who I am doesn't negate who you are!

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Arch

That's exactly it. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT, AND WE HAVE DIFFERENT NEEDS. I feel that for us to lump all transsexual people into the same category is at least as bad as a cisgender person's doing it. Frankly, I think it's worse when we do it. It's like telling all the cis people (who think we are butch girls and women in dresses), "Hey, you can't define who I am, but I get to define all the other trans people."

Screw that.

Some of us need SRS (or whatever you prefer to call it) pretty much right away, as soon as we can get it.

Some of us need it but won't be getting it anytime soon. In the meantime, we survive as best we can. Some of the people who fit this description don't make it. Most probably do, but we aren't living to our fullest potential. Take me, for example. I spend a lot of time...no, WASTE a lot of time just coping with the fact that I don't have typical male equipment. I get depressed and angry about it. But I can survive. I don't know how long I can survive. That remains to be seen. Perhaps at some point, I'll just come to peace with what I have, and it won't plague me anymore, or not much. If I get to that point, it doesn't make me less of a man than a guy who has had vaginectomy and phallo or meta.

Some of us spend years trying to decide if SRS is right for us.

Some of us don't need SRS at all, period. I don't understand those folks, but I don't need to. I might be one of those people some day.

The people who don't need SRS or who don't need it right now or who aren't sure whether they need it DO NOT DEFINE ANYONE ELSE BUT THEMSELVES. What should they do--just shut up and pretend that they don't feel the way they do? Stop identifying themselves as trans or gender-variant or MAFAB/FAMAB or whatever? Should they go ahead and have surgery because some people think that the cause is better served when we are all alike?

Screw that.

And I don't appreciate it when some women refuse to consider FTMs as part of the equation ("I can only speak for the women"/"I don't know anything about trans men") or when they excuse us from consideration because, you know, we don't have the best surgical options. That's a copout, or it's marginalization, or it's sheer laziness--or there's a hole in your reasoning, and you just don't want to go there because then you'll have to think hard and make some tough decisions and maybe even change your point of view.

I'll tell you a little secret. I know a number of trans men who don't want surgeons monkeying around with their bottom parts, and it's not because the surgeries are imperfect and/or expensive. It's because those guys don't feel that their bottom parts completely define them--and their reasons are as varied as their labels for themselves. Some feel that the micropenis they get from T is enough. Some never use the front hole and don't have a problem with its being there. Some are able to pack--every day, in the shower, in bed with one or more partners--and that is enough. Ever hear a trans man say, "I have a penis. What size do you prefer?" A prosthetic device can be a very powerful "tool" for mitigating or even eliminating body dysphoria. Please don't discount it. And I realize that trans women can't exactly do the equivalent, so it's a good thing that more of you can get surgery if you want it. But not everyone wants it. Sometimes they honestly don't want it and sometimes maybe it's sour grapes. But that's not for me to decide, is it?

We are individuals with different needs. We define ourselves in our own way. Those differences exist, and the sooner the cisgender world realizes that, and begins to accommodate that, the better off we will be. If they're confused by the fact that some of us need surgery now and some of us can wait and some of us don't need it at all, then it will just take a while to make them understand. This is not a simple problem with simple solutions. So I feel that it's bigoted and irresponsible to blame the problem on trans people who don't fit the classic mold.

Remember how that mold was created? Remember how many people (Americans, at least) in the past lied to the PTBs about how they identified and how they felt and how they wanted to live and how they wanted to change their bodies? That's because some well-meaning "experts" decided to set up ground rules, and they completely ignored the beautiful diversity of the people they were dealing with. The femme guys. The men who didn't want phallo. The women who were lesbians, even though there was no such thing, by the prevailing medical standards. The transsexuals who didn't fit traditional gender roles--men who liked to cook and play with kids, women who liked to wear pants (gasp) or take motorcycles apart.

The categories and the labeling that came out of that world and those times are working against us now. The world will have to understand that--eventually. And so will we.

I just want to reiterate that all the things I'm saying here I am saying as a regular member and not a mod. Everything I'm saying is MY OPINION. Needless to say, I've become increasingly frustrated about all the fighting, just as Miniar has been. I started to post about this last night but didn't have the brain cells to follow through. But now Miniar, bless his beautiful soul and articulate language, has paved the way for me. Thank you, Min.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) When it comes down to the nitty gritty, some 'need' genital  surgery, some 'would like' genital surgery, and some 'don't'  .....[I slotted into the "would likes" and was fortunate enough to have surgery, however if I hadn't, I would have just continued living as a somewhat happy and content woman with that little a bit extra]

" IT'S ALL ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL'S LEVEL OF CONTENTMENT"

After all....All a person wants is to be happy [in their own skin]......And I should add "If you're happy-I'm happy !"

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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cynthialee

Miniar has made an excellent post.

However...
Val brings up some solid counter points. (imho)

It is however a catch 22 as far as I can tell.

Folks see black and white. If SRS is optional for some trans people then they will surmise that it is optional for all of us.
Obviously to those of us who need SRS to be complete the idea of it being optional is downright ludicrus.
For those who it is an option, it is an option and that reality can not be denied.

But I do think that because SRS is optional for some of us, there are those who will consider it optional for all of us.


Personaly when I read Annah post that for her SRS is optional and she is getting it anyways, I lost it.
To me SRS is a life afirming and vital surgery for my sanity and quality of life. I am stuck in a perpetual state of hell. I can not imagine SRS to be optional. I dont understand how it can be optional at all.

Life sux.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) I can see the dilemma facing  'surgery driven' trans-people who live in the US, especially when it comes to the possibility of legally recognising non-ops and insurance cover for pre-ops...

As CynthiaLee said it truly is a catch 22....

Metta Zenda :)

"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Silver

]: It is sad to see the infighting when I do. Everything seems to have already been said, so all I can do it be tolerant myself and try not to inspire fights/continue them.

I hope we can come to terms with each other as this is, after all, a support site.
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Valeriedoeswcs

Well, there have been many things left out of this discussion but none of us will persuade the other, thats for sure. So why bother. I do have some questions for those of you declaring women's surgery is a choice and wish to vent some myself, since this is the vent forum and the purpose of this thread.

I do not nor ever will understand the premise that women's SRS is a choice and not a medical intervention.

Annah, you still have not stated why you are having SRS, if it is not needed? Please let us know why you are correcting your body? Why do you want a binary body (not need, according to you) ...to correct it, maybe,  so that it is congruent? To have a functional part that matches your identity? It sounds hypocritical that you are having surgery denied by others and calling it a choice, you dont really need it. Many women here who cannot get surgery, except lucky you. And here you are telling them that it is a choice. That doesnt make them feel too good, Im sure. I had a PM this evening from a woman in tears on reading what you wrote, because she needs it and cannot have it. She wrote in despair and grief over what you wrote. A member here.

For you FtM people to argue that a woman's surgery is optional is reprehensible. A surgery that can provide a fully functional vagina to correct their body. If you cannot desire that functioning body to your female peers, what does that say about you? Why are you weighing in on women's surgery?

For you FTM people, if there was a surgery that gave you a fully functioning, beautiful penis, yet those that stated it was a choice caused the public to perceive it was only cosmetic and elective how upset would you be, in all honesty? How erased would you feel? Are you seriously telling me that if a beautiful penis could be provided you would see it as a choice and not a medical intervention that you needed? You wouldnt be first in line? Cmon?

It's easier to declare someone angry and a lunatic and moderate them rather than answer those questions. Well, there is some anger there and rightfully so.
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SandraJane

Val....give it a break!

On the third day she is still ranting....Now you're preaching to the choir! Just like "Yosaurian" we are sane in a crazy world! What else do you expect? Your point is made, now let it go!

Ps-prefered a smite instead.
:laugh:
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