Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

The infighting gets us nothing!

Started by Miniar, October 16, 2011, 11:14:03 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cindy

Quote from: Felix on October 17, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
Lol but at least he called it, right? He knew it would probably go this way. :P

Not to make light of it. We shouldn't fight.

Sorry Felix I don't follow your comment?
BTW how is your daughter? Worried.

Cindy
  •  

Mahsa Tezani

There's in fighting?

We all have different views. I apologize right now if I got heavy handed with my opinions on hair and cosmetics. Many people have a different perspective than I do and I need to respect that.
  •  

Devlyn

I thought my post was in the spirit of what Miniar wanted. It went downhill fast, though. Hugs, Tracey
  •  

Felix

Cindy I was just was chuckling a little because Miniar did say "I know I'm quite probably going to see more of it as a response to this post," and then yes people got a little bickery later in the thread. I also tried to clarify that I didn't find the conflicts themselves funny.

And my daughter is not well. She's calmer, not hallucinating or hitting so much, but the drugs make her look like she's carrying a heavy weight around all the time. She's sad and tired, and she wants to come home. I told her if they didn't discharge her by Halloween that I'd just check her out. She's been looking forward to it for months. She wants to be a princess.

It looks like her school won't take her back, so I have to call around and find a day treatment facility when she is released. It's all confusing and scary, and I'm still not really used to the idea that this is serious and real and permanent.
everybody's house is haunted
  •  

SandraJane

What movie scene comes to mind here....
2001-Space Odessy! 

HAL 9000: "Dave, I really think you should take a stress pill, and sit down and think about this for awhile"...

Please Val!
  •  

Valeriedoeswcs

Quote from: SandraJane on October 17, 2011, 06:49:23 AM
What movie scene comes to mind here....
2001-Space Odessy! 

HAL 9000: "Dave, I really think you should take a stress pill, and sit down and think about this for awhile"...

Please Val!

Yes, I should :)

Everyone should be providing counseling to members that desire to willingly cut off their body parts for no valid reason, just as a choice. It is not the intended purpose of womens SRS, which is to improve those womens lives. I am pretty sure it is not ethical for a surgeon to operate for no valid medical reason. They could lose their license or be sued for malpractice.

It is also harmful to the patient with the risks involved and also for the potential for regret. This decision affects not only the patient themselves but the entire transsexual female community. If the public perceives SRS as simply a choice, sentiment would turn against all of us.

It is also a risk of life and death. People die from this surgery.
  •  

cynthialee

Fighting is not intrinsicaly bad.

It gets 'it' out.

Negative emotions and arguements are part of the human experiance. To avoid confrontation at all costs is to avaoid part of the human existance at all costs.

Not healthy.

It is far better that we should scream until we are blue in the face and exhausted from the argument than it is to cut short the critisism and to leave a festering boil of anger unadressed.

No blood has been drawn and no bruises have formed. It is good that we get it out in this fashion.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

VeryGnawty

Quote from: cynthialee on October 17, 2011, 07:48:40 AM
It is far better that we should scream until we are blue in the face and exhausted from the argument than it is to cut short the critisism and to leave a festering boil of anger unadressed.

No blood has been drawn and no bruises have formed. It is good that we get it out in this fashion.

This gets my vote for Post Of The Month.  +1

I agree.  All of the arguing is annoying, but it is better than not arguing.
"The cake is a lie."
  •  

Fighter

Trust me when I say that most women here do not just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I want a vagina now. I think I'll go get surgery!" This seems to be what you're implying. To be honest it all amounts to variances in the levels of dysphoria that these women (and men) feel. Some feel that they cannot live without the surgery. Others feel that they would feel more comfortable and correct with the surgery, but due to things like money or family or health or fear, it's not their top priority.

While it may not be their top priority, the surgery may still be very important to them. There is still a valid reason for them to get it, and that is the fact (or in some rare cases, opinion) that they will feel corrected with it. On the other hand, some may feel that life itself among other things are more important than the surgery, due to things like money, family, health, or even fear. Some may feel completely comfortable and at peace without having to change their privates. Just because someone is comfortable with their body does not mean that they are less of a man or woman than someone who is not. Just because someone does not have surgery as their top priority does not make them less of a man or a woman than someone that does. It also does not give either the right to criticize or label the other.

As for undermining the efforts for transsexuality and SRS to be recognized as something that's not a choice, I don't know about you but I certainly don't want the public thinking that every transgendered person HAS to get SRS. That's just as close-minded as saying that every Jew pinches pennies, or every Mexican in the US is illegal. If we want the public to perceive us as real and treat us with proper equality and respect, we have to fight for ALL sides. Not just for the side of people who need to have SRS to live. Not just for the side of people who do not have SRS as a top priority. Not just for the people who feel they do not need SRS ever. We must fight for all sides to truly be called equal and to truly be taken seriously.

Education is our weapon in this fight, unity is our armor. We have to stick together or we'll be shred to pieces. If this means I have to at least respect another person's viewpoint even if I don't understand it, then so be it. That's pretty much the entire point of the fight for trans-equality: to have people respect us even though they do not understand us. To make them understand would be impossible, because to understand is to experience. Respect is the least we can ask of them. Respect is the least you can ask of me. Respect is the least I can ask of you.

That's my two cents anyway.
  •  

Valeriedoeswcs

Here is the Medical Necessity Statement from WPATH.

Medical Necessity Statement

QuoteThe medical procedures attendant to sex reassignment are not "cosmetic" or "elective" or for the mere convenience of the patient. These reconstructive procedures are not optional in any meaningful sense, but are understood to be medically necessary for the treatment of the diagnosed condition.

Any discussion of SRS as a CHOICE is simply crazy talk. I'm sorry, but it has to be said.

Take it up with WPATH if you think SRS is a CHOICE or optional. As the statement says, it is not for the convenience of the patient or elective. It is a necessity. Those that have been through it understand and are simply trying to explain that.

This official statement document from WPATH also includes the following, which many of you are saying and is recognized.

QuoteGenital reconstruction is not required for social gender recognition, and such surgery should not be a prerequisite for document or record changes
  •  

cynthialee

Val brings up a good point with that WPATH referance.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

VeryGnawty

Quote from: cynthialee on October 17, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
Val brings up a good point with that WPATH referance.

Someone will just try to claim it is an argumentum ad verecundiam, and then we will be COMPLETELY back to square one.

Trust me, this is not an argument that can end.  The only way this argument will end is if both sides come to a compromise, or if social conditions change in a way which makes one side of the argument obsolete.
"The cake is a lie."
  •  

Annah

calling someone insane because they feel SRS is a choice for them is inexcusable. I don't care what part of the forums this thread is in.
  •  

Sarah Louise

Face it folks, on certain issues we will NEVER agree, we come from diametrically opposite thought patterns.


Living with GID is a delicate situation.  Take me for an example (don't burn me on the following comments, please):

I have GID, I have had it since youth.  I'm old and did not have the advantage of the internet when I grew up.  Once I did become aware I realized surgery was the correct (and only option for me).

Problem is, I have diabetes, high blood pressure, heart problems, etc.  I talked with a surgeon and he said my medical issues preclude me from getting this surgery, he considered it too dangerous.  (I had to go through stress tests and other things before a surgeon would even repair a torn muscle in my shoulder).

I don't (and can't) understand the people who feel surgery is optional and not a necessity, but if I follow through with these feelings the only option for me is death.  I have had to fight suicidal tendenicies over this for most of my adult life (from the first time a surgeon said no right through until today).  Its a daily battle to maintain my balance and just live as the woman I am.


There are a couple of battles that have been going on at Susan's since my first day here, Stealth vs non-Stealth and Post/Non/Pre OP.  Blood has been spilled over these issues.  If we are ever going to stop the bad feelings, people leaving over feeling unwelcome and just general unrest, we Have to start trying to accept that not everyone is going to agree with out Opinions and we need to give them space to disagree.

We will never beat others into submission and that should not be our desire.  Learn from each other and be willing to call it a DRAW once in a while.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
  •  

cynthialee

Quote from: Annah on October 17, 2011, 10:29:10 AM
calling someone insane because they feel SRS is a choice for them is inexcusable. I don't care what part of the forums this thread is in.
It is impossible to question anouther persons veracity and mental stablity without bringing offense to the person questioned.
In such a seting as a forum to discuss and support others in such a delicate subject as the matter at hand one must expect that a certain amount of aspersions may be cast in ones direction.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

Annah

Quote from: cynthialee on October 17, 2011, 10:41:28 AM
It is impossible to question anouther persons veracity and mental stablity without bringing offense to the person questioned.
In such a seting as a forum to discuss and support others in such a delicate subject as the matter at hand one must expect that a certain amount of aspersions may be cast in ones direction.

When someone calls me insane because I am having SRS as a choice there is no damn excuse for that. I do not care where it was said. It's wrong.

If someone does not understand why I am having surgery, then that's fine. But when someone has the audacity to question's ones mental wellbeing because of it; it's wrong. Plain and Simple.
  •  

Miniar

Once again, the cycle of arguments goes around and around and around....

Did I say, anywhere, at any time, that sexual reassignment surgery is a choice or is optional?
No, I didn't.
But that doesn't mean that it is, by it's very nature, absolutely 100% mandatory either.

That's where the problem lies.

Just because I can live without srs does not make me a woman. Just because I can live with my vagina doesn't make me a woman any more than having been born with one.

THE DEFINITION OF WOMAN IS NOT VAGINA!

Is this really so bloody hard to understand?

It's not about whether or not SRS is or isn't fundamentally a choice, it's about the fact that it can be, for some, possible to be themselves without srs while others may feel they need it to be remotely comfortable in their own skin.
It's absolutely, 100% necessary for some, but not all.
THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS MEN OR WOMEN!ยจ

Yes, for most of us, "if" it were possible to have a 100% guaranteed result of a 100% fully functional set of genitals, we'd all jump at the chance, but let's face it, there's no 100% guarantee, there's no 100% fully functional, and there's a lot of pain, a lot of cost, and considerable risk of losing more than just a little.
You know this, you've been here a while, you've seen girls post of their third or fourth revision, eventually giving up on the hope of ever feeling content with what surgery has brought them.

We do have a choice, I don't care what WPATH says, no one can physically force us to have any surgery of any kind against our wills. We can "choose" not to accept a medically necessary heart transplant. We can "choose" not to undergo medically necessary cancer treatments. Therefore we can "choose" not to have SRS.

Those of us who choose not to have SRS don't do so because we're "crazy" but because when we're faced with the cost (fiscal, physical and mental) as well as the risks, and we weigh that against our own personal level of dysphoria regarding the downstairs area and the results we can theoretically expect in a "best case" scenario, we find that in our own personal position, as it is, at least for the time being, the surgery is not something we're willing to go through with.

This doesn't mean that it was a simple choice for other people, in other positions, with other personal backgrounds and so on.
It doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone.
It doesn't mean it's cosmetic or even "elective".

It means quite simply that my body will be altered to suit my needs. MY NEEDS!
Not yours, not some other persons, MY NEEDS!

It doesn't change what your needs were any less "needs".
It means that I am not you.

It's very simple.
I am not you.

Here's the only thing I want from you.
Stop dictating my identity, stop dictating my transition, and stop othering me.
That's it!




"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
  •  

Valeriedoeswcs

I know there are hurt feelings on these issues.

WPATH's statement is clear  however we feel about it. The statement includes mastectomines, hystorectomies

QuoteMedically necessary sex reassignment procedures also include complete hysterectomy, bilateral mastectomy, chest reconstruction or augmentation as appropriate to each patient (including breast prostheses if necessary), genital reconstruction (by various techniques which must be appropriate to each patient, including, for example, skin flap hair removal, penile and testicular prostheses, as necessary), facial hair removal, and certain facial plastic reconstruction as appropriate to the patient.

They are all considered medically necessary procedures and not cosmetic or elective.

p.s.

My comment earlier about insane was particular about the position of CHOICE vs Necessity. It would be questionable to allow a surgery that was not medically necessary. Of course I do not desire anyone have surgery that does not need it. I had it and dont wish that event on anyone where it wasnt needed.
  •  

Shana A

A reminder to refrain from personal attacks! Everyone does what is right for themselves. Only that person knows what is right for them and their situation.

Z - Admin
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Valeriedoeswcs

I totally agree that everyone's path is their own.
  •