Unprovable Discrimination?

Julie Marie · March 01, 2007, 07:03:30 PM

"I want everyone in this room to know you will be the last people to be asked to sit home. You are the future of this company." The speaker then pointed to me and said, "And that means you too. Stick around" I figured he was telling me not to retire early. That was about six months ago.

In construction it's extremely rare to do anything other than work with the tools, unless you are a foreman. Yet I found myself with a laptop, a desk and several sets of blueprints, pricing out new work. That's not new to me. I was in the office for many years. What I really loved about this company is they utilized my experience, talents and skills. And I helped them make a LOT of money.

Then work slowed down and I was one of the first to be asked to sit home. I sat for a month. When I went back I found I sat longer than anyone else. And I found out that some job foreman didn't want me because I was "too old". Or was it my hair was too long or that I had boobs or that my nails were too perfect? In other words I looked feminine.

When I started working for this company my hair was a lot shorter. I had a beard shadow. I was definitely more masculine looking. But not so today. And I'm not doing anything to hide this. And I don't think I should!

Last week I worked half a week only because they guy who saw fit to utilize me as something other than a worker bee kept me busy. This week I haven't worked at all and I have no idea when I'll go back.

I can read eyes pretty well and I've seen a change in how the guys react to me. They don't make eye contact like they used to. I find myself working alone while all around me most guys have a partner. But in spite of this I remain positive at work. I never complain, I do my job and on occasion the job foreman comes to me for help (33 years in the trade does hold some weight). But now I'm back sitting at home again waiting for work while there are guys who haven't missed even an hour of work.

Gut feeling? They see me changing and they are uncomfortable. There is no HR or anything like that to discuss this with. I'm on my own.

Makes me believe I need to leave the trade because I'll never be able to prove discrimination. Not in this industry.

Julie

Sarah Louise · March 01, 2007, 07:18:48 PM

That is unfortunate. It would be so nice if people accepted you for the work you did, not how you look or how old you are.

But then at 62, I know how you feel it is hard to get companies to value you, especially if you don't fit the mold they expect.

Sarah L.

Elizabeth · March 01, 2007, 08:17:29 PM

Julie,

Over the years I have had some pretty weird dudes work for me. Some that would make you look quite tame. I mean some real nut cases, people who show up not just drunk, but can barely stand. Others with obvious mental problems, yet these guys manage to take calls and stay working. Thing is though, they are always the first to go, or just flat out turned around.

If the word is out about you and you are no longer concealing your appearance, you really may be risking your life here. You may have to make a choice. If the word is out about you, you may have a difficult time staying employed.

Love always,
Elizabeth

cindianna_jones · March 01, 2007, 08:48:14 PM

Julie, what did you think would happen?

Okay.. when you finally decide to leave the trade... do this one last thing. Come out. Be up front and demand equal opportunity. Do it through the union. What have you got to lose at that point?

You could cut your hair back, let your nails go for a FEW MONTHS and finish out your career. But I too know how that all goes. It's much easier to piss it away than to fight the TS demon.

I can't tell you what to do. I hate to see you lose a significant piece of your retirement. I know that the last couple of years of work can really pump up the monthly retirement check.

You are correct that you'll have a hard time proving anything. They can do what they are doing with impunity. It's too bad you can't transfer your card to the bay area where transition is a little more open and people have been forced to deal with it.

Chin up doll.

Cindi

tinkerbell · March 02, 2007, 12:53:50 AM

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 01, 2007, 07:03:30 PM

I found out that some job foreman didn't want me because I was "too old". Or was it my hair was too long or that I had boobs or that my nails were too perfect? In other words I looked feminine.

Julie

Is this even legal, Julie? if someone is trying to sabotage you at your workplace because they think you are too "old" or look too "feminine", well, they are putting themselves at a very great risk for a discrimination lawsuit. I would be prepared; there are many attorneys who provide free advice and/or consultations; it wouldn't be a bad idea to get their help just to see what your options are.

tinkerbell

cindianna_jones · March 02, 2007, 12:56:30 AM

Tink,

If no one says anything, if there are no witnesses, if nothing is written down... what is there to use as proof? Nothing. Julie is in a very difficult situation.

Cindi

tinkerbell · March 02, 2007, 01:05:02 AM

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 02, 2007, 12:56:30 AM
Tink,

If no one says anything, if there are no witnesses, if nothing is written down... what is there to use as proof? Nothing. Julie is in a very difficult situation.

Cindi

Well, she says that she found out that a job foreman didn't want her because she was "too old". Even if this was said by someone other than the foreman, I would start writing things down on a journal with dates, names, comments.....
If in the future, Julie's fears become true and they fire her, well, the company will have to use an "excuse" to fire an employee. This is when the journal becomes handy in the event that the firing has been done using bogus reasons.

tinkerbell

Suzy · March 02, 2007, 01:31:04 AM

Julie,

Do you live in a "right to work" state? I only mention this because if you do (as I do) they can fire you with no reason whatsoever.

Kristi

cindianna_jones · March 02, 2007, 01:44:05 AM

She doesn't work for a specific company. This makes it more difficult. She is working as a union laborer. So the company hires her much like a contractor. But there's another chain of command linked in there with the union. They can lay someone off and hire a replacement on the very same day and no one will ever say anything. That's how it is.

Quote from: Kristi on March 02, 2007, 01:31:04 AM
Julie,

Do you live in a "right to work" state? I only mention this because if you do (as I do) they can fire you with no reason whatsoever.

Kristi

Gotta love the name. "Right to Work" means that you have absolutely no rights at all.

Cindi

ChefAnnagirl · March 02, 2007, 02:42:54 AM

Dear Julie,

You are strong, beautiful, capable, intelligent, obviously skilled, and hardworking. You are articulate and fair-minded. I dont even know you and all these things i can feel about you. You will make it. No matter what. If there's anything i can do to help, you have got a willing ally. You have already begun to own yourself and reclaim all of your personal power in ways that most, if not none of them, could or will ever possibly imagine.

Lovingly always,
Most Sincerely,

ChefAnnagirl

Melissa · March 02, 2007, 06:42:00 PM

Quote from: Tinkerbell on March 02, 2007, 01:05:02 AM
Well, she says that she found out that a job foreman didn't want her because she was "too old".

Hmm, I thought it was illegal to discriminate on the basis of age.

Seems to me, that would be MUCH easier to get a lawsuit on.

Melissa

Julie Marie · March 02, 2007, 11:15:45 PM

Quote from: Melissa on March 02, 2007, 06:42:00 PM
Quote from: Tinkerbell on March 02, 2007, 01:05:02 AM
Well, she says that she found out that a job foreman didn't want her because she was "too old".
Hmm, I thought it was illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. Seems to me, that would be MUCH easier to get a lawsuit on.

Melissa

Melissa, I can guarantee you, they guy who told me this would never admit it if there was a lawsuit. He's been with this company 30 years.

My dad was a lawyer and he taught me a lot about law. I've looked at this through his eyes and if he was alive he'd say I have no case.

Julie

Melissa · March 02, 2007, 11:21:01 PM

Oh I know you don't Julie, but perhaps the next time you discuss a subject like that, you can recard a conversation. I think in order to use it as evidence though, you have to tell the other person that the call is being recorded.

Melissa

Amanda Barber · March 04, 2007, 02:07:10 AM

Unfortunatly there is always a way to get rid of someone. "position no longer required", restructuring. I've seen entire departments gutted with the employees "allowed to re-apply for other positions" in companies just to get rid of one person, and that person and a couple others never get back in. All above board on paper, all driven by discrimination.

SusanKay140 · March 08, 2007, 11:17:40 PM

Julie,

You didn't say, or I didn't pick up, how close you are to retirement eligibility. That has to factor in your job defense planning. If you're very close to the ability to collect or lock up company benefits, that makes a difference, not only in your planning, but in how companies view your possible departure. I'm a year from the ability to collect early Social Security and am already collecting a state pension from 33 years in one job, and have a relatively small I.R.A. I consider early S.S. as my pink parachute. I know I'm in good shape compared to many my age, but you have to evaluate the effect on your financial future.

In the meantime, Tinkerbell is right, keep a journal and any other possible documentation concerning discriminatory behavior toward you.

I think I'm not alone in the belief that the closer you get to escaping the world of work, the harder it is to both do so successfully and with your dignity. We're here for you.

Susan Kay

Theo · April 24, 2007, 08:32:26 PM

For the past many years I've been working to observe exactly the subtle and unprovable discrimination you were talking about. If you want, shoot me an e-mail and I will send you some stuff you could read or we could talk. THERE IS A WAY TO PROVE IT. There is. And I've been trying my theory - it workds. But we need more people and more awareness.
Get in touch with me and we"ll take it from there.
I say: ENOUGH.

seldom · April 25, 2007, 01:43:07 PM

Julie just remember you live in Illinois, where discrimination based on gender identity has been illegal since 2005.

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