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Non-Binary Introductions

Started by ativan, October 20, 2011, 04:08:48 PM

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suzifrommd

Quote from: BlueSloth on October 31, 2012, 08:12:03 PM
Yeah, it makes a lot of unstated assumptions about who's taking it.

I like the sage test better.

Please don't take the Sage or Cogiati any more seriously than you would take one of those quizzes in a women's magazine ("Are you a flirt? Take our ten question quiz and find out!"), There is simply zero scientific evidence that they can identify androgynes or transgender better than self-identification.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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BlueSloth

Quote from: agfrommd on October 31, 2012, 08:21:33 PM
Please don't take the Sage or Cogiati any more seriously than you would take one of those quizzes in a women's magazine
I think they're better, but that's not saying much.  Those silly quizzes have pretty much random results with me.

But you're right, I should have said something a bit stronger than "the error margin has got to be a lot more than 75".

Kaila:  I guess the important question is are you surprised by your cogiati score?
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Kaila

#202
Quote from: BlueSloth on November 01, 2012, 02:19:23 AM
I think they're better, but that's not saying much.  Those silly quizzes have pretty much random results with me.

But you're right, I should have said something a bit stronger than "the error margin has got to be a lot more than 75".

Kaila:  I guess the important question is are you surprised by your cogiati score?

No actually call me odd but it seems to fit just well lol. I do need to start googling the effects of these hormone tabs I'm on though and find out if they're perhaps pushing me a little closer into positive territory, not that I really mind tbh

Hmm 330 on that SAGE test, it seemed to have many similar questions to the other test albeit in a reworded and more suitable (for me personally) manner.
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Taka

Quote from: BlueSloth on October 31, 2012, 08:12:03 PM
When I saw your picture I thought you were going the other way.  M to something...
haha, that's funny. i knew my face was too masculine for a cute girl... the wonderful effect of not showing my entire body, and being too lazy to shape my eyebrows to pass better as a "normal" female.
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Kaelin

Every time I look at these kinds of tests, I think "this question is so stereotypical" (but that's sort of how being "androgynous" plays out) or "my answer is not on here" or "I think this test will grossly misunderstand my answer" a bit too often.  Also, sage incorrectly pinned me as not gynephilic.  It scored around a -400, regarding me as looking "quite masculine" (a little bit of an overstatement but broadly true) but also being androgynous.  So, at least something came out legit.

I've sort of re-appeared in these forums recently-ish, so I'll introduce myself as an androgynous male who doesn't think that sometimes wearing a dress and heels for a desirable aesthetic makes someone a crossdresser.  Of course, society pumps us with all sort of silly roles and rules, gender-related and otherwise, that overcomplicate things (like clothes).

There's a more constructive side to the story, though.  It's good to find areas and groups of people where you can be who you are, and is a rather large amount of terrain where you can get away with most things just by going about your business.  But the catch is that the size of our "free" world may feel small (and rightly so), and Susan's is always good to come back to.  I'm maybe not conventional within the Androgyne board, but that's the closest thing to "trans" identity I've got, and this group has a pretty wide strike zone anyway, so I'm down with it.  So, I'm back-ish.  For now.

Pictures come later.  I had the cold/flu a while ago, and I'm still dealing with a nagging cough.  But I feel I'm at the point where I'm not exceedingly worried about damaging my employment ability, as any place that's too hung on my appearance would probably be a hellhole anyway.  So, that's a good feeling to have.

Anyway, hi.
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Shantel

Quote from: Kaelin on November 01, 2012, 03:26:24 PM
Every time I look at these kinds of tests, I think "this question is so stereotypical" (but that's sort of how being "androgynous" plays out) or "my answer is not on here"...

Any competent gender counselor or psychologist will tell you that those tests are actually meaningless and not to be construed as a trustworthy tool to determine GID proclivities.
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Padma

I'm suddenly struck all over again by how 'androgyne' as a gender identity sometimes has to frame itself against, for example:

Woman/Man, where Woman/Man just = Presents/Behaves As Gender-Stereotypical Woman/Man

I'm not sure whether I'm going to be able to express this clearly, but here goes... I identify as androgyne, but not because I feel both male and female, or neither male nor female (or whatever many other colours there are in the forest-paintbox); I identify as androgyne because although I know I'm female (and that wants to express itself in my physiology, hence my gender transition), I don't have any desire to be, or behave like, or present like, a gender-stereotypical woman - not do I want to be, etc., like a gender-stereotypical man either.

Since we're largely stuck with the cultural definition of woman/man as being someone who's gender-stereotypical (a self-stoking 'norm'), this leaves me without the option of feeling comfortable with simply identifying as a woman. I am. It's just that the cultural norm sets me outside itself, and I don't want to be inside it on its terms.

So I have to hope that androgyne is a large enough, permeable enough umbrella to welcome me under it. So far, it seems to be. But I came up with the label Womandrogyne to indicate that I have a foot in both camps, and it feels ridiculous (culturally speaking) that I even felt the need for that. I'm pretty fed up with being asked "What are you?" by a world that's already decided for itself what I am not.

Blah drone, labels, labels, okay, I'm done now ::) :).
Womandrogyne™
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Shantel

Padma, you germ free adolescent, you have eloquently and masterfully spoken for both of us! Thank you dear, sir, maam, sweetie!  ;D
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Padma

Quote from: Shantel on November 01, 2012, 06:40:58 PM
Padma, you germ free adolescent, you have eloquently and masterfully spoken for both of us! Thank you dear, sir, maam, sweetie!  ;D

Mistressfully, mistressfully ;). And no "sir", no siree!
Womandrogyne™
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Pica Pica

Quote from: Shantel on November 01, 2012, 06:40:58 PM
Padma, you germ free adolescent, you have eloquently and masterfully spoken for both of us! Thank you dear, sir, maam, sweetie!  ;D

The song is in my head, and I have to thank you.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Padma

Frequently in mine too. I once used 'germ free adolescent' as an obscure crossword clue to the word 'mule' (since at the time, I was under the impression that mules were sterile - which they may in fact be, but I can't be arsed to google it right now...)
Womandrogyne™
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Kaelin

Shantel: No worries -- I wasn't taking these tests seriously.  It's just disappointing that a test that's so icky is also so long.  A good fluff quiz runs around 20 questions, not 160. XD

Padma: I feel the same way (aside from not being TS and from being male, but that's not the thrust of your post).  What would be a suitable male counterpart to a "tomboy" anyway?  Anngirl?  Kategirl is alright, too, but it doesn't roll off the tongue the same way, where the first syllable rolls right into the second (just like tomboy does).
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Padma

Quote from: Kaelin on November 01, 2012, 07:39:25 PM
What would be a suitable male counterpart to a "tomboy" anyway?  Anngirl?  Kategirl is alright, too, but it doesn't roll off the tongue the same way, where the first syllable rolls right into the second (just like tomboy does).

I don't think there's a standard equivalent. Of course, tomboy is meant as an at least mild insult/rebuke to girls. I know some women are uncomfortable with me reclaiming tomboy, because it was used as an insult to them. But others think it's great :).

Oh, this gets interesting: I was thinking about how toms are sexually active (as opposed to neutered) male cats - but then the technical terms for sexually active female cats (a molly, and then once they've had kittens they become a queen) are both historical terms for "effeminate" men (and for prostitutes before that). Hmm.
Womandrogyne™
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Kaelin

I think the history of tomboy being an insult is probably akin to "sissy."  For a variety of reasons, sissy doesn't have the same sort of potential to be reclaimed any time soon, so that's something worth avoiding.

Tomboy does present some problems for girls, although it also carries credibility.  Adopting a male counterpart not only helps provide a more dignified slang for androgynous men, but it also shows respect to the tomboy concept -- "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

The only reservation I have with anngirl right now is that the name is unfortunately attached to a Presidential candidate's wife.  However, if Obama wins re-election, "Ann" seems like a good name to use.  It is got a single syllable and rolls well with "girl," it is sort of old fashioned but still a sufficiently "normal" name (like Tom), and it's short enough that it's not particularly longer to write than its female counterpart.

It's an idea, anyway.

Cat-related edit: Wow, that's quite the history.  But then, "queen" is just... so wrong for these purposes.  I mean, being a tomboy involves defying norms, but it's with a purpose rather than doing it rather than for the sake of messing with stereotypes.  Molly seems to have to do more with drugs, so that name seems to have been derailed for unrelated reasons.
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Padma

As far as traditionally-used girls' names go, there's also Nellie. The problem is that people can't seem to dissociate gender from sexuality in their minds, so all the words for less-masculine men are generally just ways of saying "he's gay and I don't approve." ::)

Tomboy doesn't have quite so much of an inevitable "she's a lesbian" about it, because people seem to assume it's "just a phase" in a way they don't with less-masculine men.

For some reason, whenever I think of androgyne, I think of the name Ariel - the spirit from Shakespeare's The Tempest, who in my mind is very androgynous.
Womandrogyne™
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Shantel

Quote from: Padma on November 01, 2012, 06:58:40 PM
Mistressfully, mistressfully ;). And no "sir", no siree!

I knew that of course just being silly!
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Padma

Womandrogyne™
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Shantel

Quote from: Padma on November 01, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
I know :).

My sis is in London right now, if I was there you and I would have to visit your favorite pub and down a few pints my friend!
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Padma

You wouldn't like me with a few pints in me - I know I don't :).
Womandrogyne™
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Shantel

Quote from: Padma on November 01, 2012, 09:26:36 PM
You wouldn't like me with a few pints in me - I know I don't :).

I have been known to have a Jekyll and Hyde personality after one too many!   :icon_drunk::icon_mrgreen:
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