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Non-Binary Introductions

Started by ativan, October 20, 2011, 04:08:48 PM

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finalyfree

yum guacamole, hi all ,im a 40sumthng year old androgyne ,only found out bout that word 8 months ago luv it,i dont have any issues or problems love who and wot i am  jus dont know wot the heck to do with my life now
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Huggyrei

Hi all,

I am comfortable with my body, which is physically female, but I've always pretty indifferent about that. I've always thought of myself as just me; being female is like having blue eyes and brown hair, and treating me differently for it has always flummoxed me. There's been numerous times when people have tried to get me to do things "because they would make me feel more feminine", and I have occasionally remarked that dressing like a panda might also make me feel more like a panda, but is not a good reason for doing so. I suppose although I've always thought of myself as quite a masculine female, I also knew I wasn't a man, and I didn't think there was another option, so just stuck with it. mostly it's fine; when I'm with my friends, they treat me just as me, and i have both male and female friends and are the same person with either. Howeve, I continue to feel uncomfortable whenever someone tries to enforce gender roles and presentations on me, and i've particulaly noticed it at work, where people often used gender based banter between men and women, and it tends to leave me feeling very strange and uncomfortable and unable to join in.

I discovered the term Androgyne just a month or so ago, and it was like something clicked; I am not a woman (the word feels somehow wrong when applied to me), and nor am I a man. I am just me, possessing both traits that are stereotypically feminine and traits that are stereotypically masculine, but my sense of self is both and neither.

Still feeling my way through the forest. I might pause and build a treehouse-castle. With turrets. And a flying trapeze.

I definitely identify with being a geek! I like maths, fantasy and science-fiction, books, anime, and I play in RPGS, some tabletop but mostly theatre style LARPs, which i also write and run. Oh, and I sing and play instruments, study whatever new subject interests me this year, visit the occasional exotic clime, am learning aerial silks and flying trapeze, and generally like to keep pretty busy :)

Rei
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Shantel

Hi Rei,
     I totally get you on you're thinking, you're sure not lone. So welcome, you came to the right place and happy New Year to you!
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Psychomech

Hey, I'm Codee.

I'm... well, mostly confused and depressed. I've figured myself for an androgyne for years but it seems lately it's kicking my ass. I feel like I'm always being really vain. I'd prefer to wear men's clothes but they don't look good on a female body and it doesn't feel nice to know you don't look good. However, I can't bear to wear particularly feminine clothing, either. I often feel like I'd be more comfortable having been born a guy, but I somehow don't like being perceived as a man, either. I just wanna be comfortable, y'know?

Overall though, I feel pretty gender neutral. And I'm usually a bit more cheerful! Nice to meet you guys.
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Shantel

Quote from: Psychomech on January 12, 2013, 02:56:49 AM
Hey, I'm Codee.

I'm... well, mostly confused and depressed. I've figured myself for an androgyne for years but it seems lately it's kicking my ass. I feel like I'm always being really vain. I'd prefer to wear men's clothes but they don't look good on a female body and it doesn't feel nice to know you don't look good. However, I can't bear to wear particularly feminine clothing, either. I often feel like I'd be more comfortable having been born a guy, but I somehow don't like being perceived as a man, either. I just wanna be comfortable, y'know?

Overall though, I feel pretty gender neutral. And I'm usually a bit more cheerful! Nice to meet you guys.

Hey Codee,
      A big welcome, you have come to the right place and you're certainly not alone!
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Jamie D

Hi there, Codee, and welcome.

Please be sure to review


On a personal level, I have found that "unisex" clothing works best for me, like jeans and brightly colored shirts.  I love Hawaiian shirts - the bolder the better.
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ativan

Quote from: Psychomech on January 12, 2013, 02:56:49 AM
I just wanna be comfortable, y'know?
Nice to meet you guys.
Nice to meet you also.
Check through some of the threads/topics that deal with presentation.
There is a lot of very good advice from people around here.
What I get from most of it, since I'm no fashion expert, is that comfortable is a priority.
Ativan
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Shantel

Hi Ativan!
     There's my favorite avatar again!  :eusa_clap:
 
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eli77

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 12, 2013, 11:30:31 AM
On a personal level, I have found that "unisex" clothing works best for me, like jeans and brightly colored shirts.  I love Hawaiian shirts - the bolder the better.

*throws up a little*

I mean... Fascinating fashion choice there, Jamie.

Quote from: Psychomech on January 12, 2013, 02:56:49 AM
Overall though, I feel pretty gender neutral. And I'm usually a bit more cheerful! Nice to meet you guys.

Hellos Codee, I'm pretty gender agnostic myself. Nice to meet you too.

Note: Hawaiian shirts are highly optional. Possibly even discouraged.
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Nero

Quote from: Psychomech on January 12, 2013, 02:56:49 AM
Hey, I'm Codee.

I'm... well, mostly confused and depressed. I've figured myself for an androgyne for years but it seems lately it's kicking my ass. I feel like I'm always being really vain. I'd prefer to wear men's clothes but they don't look good on a female body and it doesn't feel nice to know you don't look good. However, I can't bear to wear particularly feminine clothing, either. I often feel like I'd be more comfortable having been born a guy, but I somehow don't like being perceived as a man, either. I just wanna be comfortable, y'know?

Overall though, I feel pretty gender neutral. And I'm usually a bit more cheerful! Nice to meet you guys.

Welcome Codee.

What about men's clothes doesn't look good on you? I'm sure we can find a way around it.


Quote from: Sarah7 on January 13, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
Note: Hawaiian shirts are highly optional. Possibly even discouraged.

Oh I don't know. Bet a nice Hawaiian shirt would go nicely with this gut of mine.  :laugh:
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Kaelin

You're not fat.... you're fluffy.
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Jamie D

#252
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 13, 2013, 02:55:13 AM
*throws up a little*

I mean... Fascinating fashion choice there, Jamie.

Hellos Codee, I'm pretty gender agnostic myself. Nice to meet you too.

Note: Hawaiian shirts are highly optional. Possibly even discouraged.

Dearest Sarah,

I am afraid to say you are sadly confused.  Hawaiian shirts are the very acme of fashion taste.  Just look!





And just about anybody can wear them!



I really should put this post in the Androgyn Style Forum!   ;)
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Jamie D

Quote from: finalyfree on December 19, 2012, 09:13:51 PM
yum guacamole, hi all ,im a 40sumthng year old androgyne ,only found out bout that word 8 months ago luv it,i dont have any issues or problems love who and wot i am  jus dont know wot the heck to do with my life now

Shantel and I will teach you the secret handshake for the Susan's Place Guacamole Fan Club!

I think what you will find is that everybody's journey through life is as unique as each and every one of us is.  Becoming comfortable with ourselves is the most important step, in my opinion.
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Shantel

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 17, 2013, 04:13:34 AM
Shantel and I will teach you the secret handshake for the Susan's Place Guacamole Fan Club!

I think what you will find is that everybody's journey through life is as unique as each and every one of us is.  Becoming comfortable with ourselves is the most important step, in my opinion.

That's the absolute bottom line and it often takes a lot of soul searching and introspection, the learning process is often a bit stressful, there are occasional concessions made. In my experience I liken it to living in a neighborhood of very wealthy people on a very modest income where not everything I would wish for is affordable or even accessible and learning to be comfortable and at peace with what I do have. It's interesting to note that some who have everything are still never satisfied, this of course applies to the level of our transition that we decide is sufficient for our own needs.
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Petra

Hi, I'm Erika! I'm super-confused and am therefore going to ramble for a bit. Um, sorry.


This is how I feel about my sex: I'm female, and I'm perfectly content with that, and have no problem being recognized as such. On the other hand, I don't find anything objectionable about the idea of being male. (At the risk of TMI, a couple of nights ago I dreamt that I was turned into a man, and my dream-reaction went something like: "Huh, interesting" and "Oh hey now I can find out what it feels like to jerk off with a dick! For science!" At no point did I feel "wrong," nor did I feel any overwhelming compulsion to switch back. When I woke up, I figured that reaction seemed about what I'd expect from myself.) Biological sex doesn't feel like anything that dictates my identity; I regard it about as indicative of who I am as a person as the color of my hair. It's just a thing. Whatever. If society wasn't so wackadoodle about gender, I would probably find my biological sex literally meaningless.

This is how I feel (felt?) about gender: it's a social construct and I fail to see how anyone could think that one's disposition or aesthetic leanings or whatever have any relationship to one's genitals. Like, I resent the whole notion of gender. It feels like an arbitrary, patriarchal binary to me; I don't find it particularly relevant to me personally, so it just reads like a plan to subjugate women instead. Part of that perception probably comes from the fact that "feminine" traits are less valued by society, but at the end of the day, I've mostly always felt that my physical sex has little to no bearing on my sense of self, except perhaps things that were too strongly socialized.

This is my history with gender, at least as far as I can piece it together: There are these pictures of me, age 1, drifting from the back door into the kitchen, and I'm wearing my dad's coat (like, a spring coat, not like a suit jacket) and tie, and I'm carrying his keys. I'm pretty obviously acting out my dad's exact "home from work" routine; those pictures are some of my favorites. I didn't really do anything similar with my mom's clothes. I threw some pretty spectacular fits when my mom tried to make me wear dresses to church. I think I eventually had to be bribed into them most of the time, but I remember one fit in particular, just screaming my lungs out and bawling as I stood in front of the full-length mirror in the hallway wearing a dress, feeling irrationally upset about what I was looking at. Eventually she learned about dress pants, and I remember the palpable feeling of relief when I was allowed to start wearing them.

If I got to lunch late in elementary school sometimes, I had to sit at the boys' table. I was horrified (cooties or something!) until I realized that I fit in, which mostly meant enjoying the experience privately but admitting nothing. Fourth and fifth grade was my hardcore tomboy stage; I started refusing to shop for clothes in the girls' section (well, shirts, at least; jeans were jeans) and played a lot of basketball, which was dumb, because I'm literally in the first percentile of height for females and I have always played and been better at other sports (softball, soccer, tennis). (This was when Michael Jordan + the Bulls hype was at its peak; needless to say, I had a lot of Bulls shirts. And a Michael Jordan jersey!) Oh and I got a skateboard! I wore baseball caps backwards and sideways. The late '90s were great.

If I played any kind of game where I could make up a name, I pretty much always went for "Alex"; I was really big on the idea of unisex names. One weekend I stayed at a friend's house and convinced her to play a game where we pretended we were boys. Mostly we rode around on our bikes a lot, but we also played tackle football with some of the boys down the street. The parents were all weird about us participating, and I remember being like, "uh, I'm wearing a helmet; I'll be fine, and also this is awesome!" Nail polish and makeup have always skeeved me out, as have noticeably high-heeled shoes and, as previously alluded to, dresses and skirts. I resisted wearing a bra for as long as I could because they creeped me out, and then pretty much only wore sports bras until high school. I tried to shove all my stuff (credit card, cash money $$, ID, keys, chapstick, etc.) in my tiny girl-jeans pockets whenever I went out until, like, halfway through college, when I realized my aversion to purses didn't extend to cross-body bags. My friends are mostly guys, and though that wasn't always the case, it has been since I graduated high school.

Some of that probably means something. Some of it maybe doesn't. I don't know.

This is why I think I might be androgyne: I've always been kind of boggled by gender. I don't feel "feminine," although I certainly have some traits that would be called feminine, and while I often joke that I'm totally a dude on the inside, I wouldn't describe myself as "masculine," either. I frame the way I feel as: I just feel like a person. No gendered baggage necessary. So my instinct has always been that gender is 98-100% social construct, but that doesn't reconcile at all with you know, the existence of transgendered people. Plus, things like the John/Joan case provide pretty strong evidence that gender isn't necessarily entirely a social construct. I've been rationalizing this by assuming that the socialization of the concept of gender is just much more insidious than most people realize, and I, I don't know, through some combination of nature and nurture, managed to evade that socialization, along with any suggestions from society that a personality like mine also requires a dick.

It's occurred to me, of course, that maybe I'm framing the situation the wrong way: it's not that gender doesn't exist, it's just that it doesn't exist as a binary, but along a spectrum. I've dismissed that in the past, though, maybe because the information I found was wrong or incomplete; I couldn't 100% relate to any definition I found of "genderqueer," because I present pretty obviously female (if tomboyish; or, as one of my students put it last year, "sporty"), and I really don't have a problem with that. Like, I have pretty much no desire to screw with my presentation, and I don't feel like a guy deep down, and I don't feel like sometimes I'm a guy and sometimes a girl, and I don't feel like I'm necessarily part one thing and part another, but I do feel pretty muddled. But maybe, though, it's not just "society" making me feel that way, and it really is my brain that's weird? I think that maybe makes more logical sense (although society is not entirely off the hook, not by a long shot), but...I don't know. I don't feel like I fit in any neat box. I don't feel like I fit into any, like, messy box, either. But the other day I stumbled across some articles about androgyne identity and I thought...okay, maybe. Fits better than anything else I've found.

Does any of this sound familiar? Relatable? Or is it just like...hey maybe you should stop thinking so hard about this; you're obviously confusing yourself?


tl;dr: Hi! Gender kind of baffles me. It's all like...what?  I think I may also have an abnormally flexible perspective re: biological sex? I might be an androgyne, or maybe I'm just weird. I don't know, because I remain honestly mystified by gender!
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Jamie D

Erika, welcome!  Thank you for your thoughts on gender.  I find the subject fascinating, and I enjoy reading a well-written discussion.

Though I was born male-bodied, I do relate to some of the issues you brought up.  I'd like to ruminate over you post some more.

In the meantime, doing my mod thing ...

Please be sure to review


Glad to have you aboard!!
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Pica Pica

Quote from: Petra on January 17, 2013, 05:56:57 PM
Hi! Gender kind of baffles me. It's all like...what? 

I've always used that as a key to diagnosing an androgyne.

Quote from: Petra on January 17, 2013, 05:56:57 PM
I frame the way I feel as: I just feel like a person. No gendered baggage necessary.

Same.

-True, there are lots of different ways to be an androgyne and to come to it, but you sound a classic example to me.
Even of you aint, you're always welcome.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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eli77

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 17, 2013, 03:55:15 AM
Dearest Sarah,

I am afraid to say you are sadly confused.  Hawaiian shirts are the very acme of fashion taste.  Just look!

And just about anybody can wear them!

Yes. I'm looking. With horror.

And just because anyone can wear them doesn't mean they should.

Quote from: Petra on January 17, 2013, 05:56:57 PMDoes any of this sound familiar? Relatable? Or is it just like...hey maybe you should stop thinking so hard about this; you're obviously confusing yourself?

Yes. I tend to think the majority of gender is just society screwing with us, and/or my brain is weird and is missing a gender identity. I'm also transsexual. Which is an interesting combination.
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Petra

Thanks, all!  :)

Frankly, I'm just glad that anything in that wall of text managed to be coherent.
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