seriously, why are post op gals collectively referred to as "elitists"

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

This phrasing, coupled with the opinion you have expressed up to now, strongly implies that those who do not get surgery have not completed their transition.

i was going to say the phrasing now goes down to "because i say so." your's works too.

[Jamie Nicole]

By saying so , do you mean that according to you a non-op transwoman isn't a woman but a man?

defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes

are these opinions elitist?  if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes

are these opinions elitist?  if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist

i'm getting tired and bored of this, but i'll just conclude with the fact that you said "most of it is the brain." most of it is the brain and you have to get srs or desire it intensely do not mix to me. in my opinion, this thread has no real value.

[Jamie Nicole]

"Dysphoria" is the condition of finding it hard to bear one's current state - in this case one's gender presentation. The official definition of gender dysphoria embraces anyone who finds their current gender presentation hard enough to bear that it affects their everyday life. The treatment for this depends on the nature of and triggers for the gender dysphoria - for some, therapy is enough to help them become less dysphoric - for some, change of outward appearance (clothes, makeup, hair etc.) is enough - for some, hormone therapy to change the body shape is enough - for some, only SRS (and a blend of the above) is enough.

But these are all recognised and appropriate treatments for different manifestations of gender dysphoria in different individuals.

If you consider gender dysphoria to be synonymous with the need for SRS, then you are not discussing gender dysphoria as defined by the healthcare community at large, you are using your own definition - and it will be hard to have a balanced discussion using that terminology.

I'm pretty sure I've been very clear on my "opinions" lol

[Venus-Castina]

defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes

are these opinions elitist?  if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist

The large majority of the human population thinks we are mentally ill, should be imprisoned or worse. So I don't think that is a good indicator.
That being said it surprises me how much value some transsexuals put in the reproductive organs in order to determine ones sex.

[Jamie Nicole]

those opinions play both side of the fence. someone could lie to you and say they are fearful just so they meet your approval.

my approval? seriously?  i'm just the love child of aphrodite and zeus! lol

[VeryGnawty]

The large majority of the human population thinks we are menatally ill, should be imprisoned or worse. So I don't think that is a good indicator.

If anything, history has shown us that the majority of people are almost always WRONG.  History books are just a long list of things that everyone has done wrong over the centuries.

Whether or not 99% of people are considered elitist has no bearing on whether or not they actually are elitist...

[LifeInNeon]

defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes

are these opinions elitist?  if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist

99% of the population are not members of the trans community who have had SRS and then use it as a claim to authority on the topic. It is not the opinion alone that makes it elitist behavior. It is that the opinion places the speaker definitively on one side of the line, and others the speaker considers unworthy on the other.

There's a large number of people who wouldn't even consider you a woman. Again, it's drawing a line that places them on one side, and you on the "unworthy" side.

What makes it elitist behavior is that you got to the other side of a line that has meaning to you and then declared anyone not there yet to be less than you.

[Jamie Nicole]

The large majority of the human population thinks we are menatally ill, should be imprisoned or worse. So I don't think that is a good indicator.
That being said it surprises me how much value some transsexuals put in the reproductive organs in order to determine ones sex.

that's because we are!! lol  my god, who in their right mind would want to jeopardize being terminated from employment, losing custody of children, being ridiculed by society in general, transforming a penis into a vagina or vice versa? lol

[VeryGnawty]

There's a large number of people who wouldn't even consider you a woman.

Yeah, everyone knows that SRS is just a cosmetic procedure.  It's not a real vagina.  There's no way that a MAN can ever become a woman.

[Jamie Nicole]

99% of the population are not members of the trans community who have had SRS and then use it as a claim to authority on the topic. It is not the opinion alone that makes it elitist behavior. It is that the opinion places the speaker definitively on one side of the line, and others the speaker considers unworthy on the other.

There's a large number of people who wouldn't even consider you a woman. Again, it's drawing a line that places them on one side, and you on the "unworthy" side.

What makes it elitist behavior is that you got to the other side of a line that has meaning to you and then declared anyone not there yet to be less than you.

I've thought the same way before my surgery......i certainly did not have a complete change of thought pattern just because I had surgery

[LifeInNeon]

that's because we are!! lol  my god, who in their right mind would want to jeopardize being terminated from employment, losing custody of children, being ridiculed by society in general, transforming a penis into a vagina or vice versa? lol

Internalized transphobia at its finest. Ultimately, this is the root of the elitism.

[Venus-Castina]

defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes

Now I am thinking about it, I believe I have read a publication a few months ago by Swaab et al on research on the brains of deceased transsexuals. If I am not mistaken he found no difference between those who did "fully" transition and those who haven't for various reasons.

EDIT: Disregard that, I just grasped the publication and read that the sample size was too small to draw significant conclusions.

[LifeInNeon]

that's because we are!! lol  my god, who in their right mind would want to jeopardize being terminated from employment, losing custody of children, being ridiculed by society in general, transforming a penis into a vagina or vice versa? lol

To elaborate further, everything you've listed here can be said about those who have pink hair and facial piercings.

[Jamie Nicole]

Yeah, everyone knows that SRS is just a cosmetic procedure.  It's not a real vagina.  There's no way that a MAN can ever become a woman.

real or not real, natural or man made surely doesnt matter to me......all that matters is I have one, my body is congruent with my mind........I can sit down to pee, I can F*** in any position I wish, etc etc

[Venus-Castina]

I wonder if we have the same discussion 30 years from now, but about womb transplantations.

[VeryGnawty]

real or not real, natural or man made surely doesnt matter to me.

"To me" being the key phrase.  I assure you that it matters a great deal to other people:  the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

For that matter, whether or not I have a penis doesn't matter much to me.  Apparently, it does matter to you.

[Jamie Nicole]

"To me" being the key phrase.  I assure you that it matters a great deal to other people:  the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

I could give a F*** less what the people at wbc think!  I highly doubt that you've followed any of my posts from several months ago before I came back to this site......I'm a woman that doesnt give a F*** what anybody says or thinks about me.......I'm gonna live my life as I want regardless of what others think

[Jamie Nicole]

"To me" being the key phrase.  I assure you that it matters a great deal to other people:  the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.

For that matter, whether or not I have a penis doesn't matter much to me.  Apparently, it does matter to you.

I can assure you, that whatever is or isnt between your legs does not matter to me for I could care less.  if you have no intentions of ever completing SRS because you want to keep your junk as is, then yes, I have a problem calling you or anyone else, a woman as well as inclusion in anti discrimination legislation.  its my opinion and has nothing whatsoever to do with me being post op

[Padma]

I'm locking this thread - personal insults, and excluding specific groups from under the transgender umbrella, are a breach of the ToS.