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The non op vs post op stuff has to stop.

Started by Mahsa Tezani, November 04, 2011, 06:53:12 PM

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Annah

Quote from: Lilith on November 05, 2011, 01:34:06 AM
Calling yourself a "woman" with a penis is a delusion,

That's exactly what those who are against transsexualism would say. Now we are having transsexuals saying it to transsexuals.

Tragic.
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Mahsa Tezani

Quote from: Annah on November 05, 2011, 01:48:35 AM
That's exactly what those who are against transsexualism would say. Now we are having transsexuals saying it to transsexuals.

Tragic.

Tragically ironic.

So much for trans right, if you want to have a party in my pants....that none of you were invited to. Oh, that wasn't meant to be slutty...I like dudes.
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Annah

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 05, 2011, 01:51:52 AM
Tragically ironic.

So much for trans right, if you want to have a party in my pants....that none of you were invited to. Oh, that wasn't meant to be slutty...I like dudes.

the only peace I have out of the whole pre and non op attacks is that those trans who attack pre and post ops by saying they aren't women is a diminishing group of people.

Even the latest revision on WPATH states that non ops and pre op are ...as they call it "true trans."

So the only people who are only bitter at this are those against it and the only ones who will pat their backs and say "you are right" are growing smaller everyday.
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Mahsa Tezani

Quote from: Annah on November 05, 2011, 01:56:01 AM

So the only people who are only bitter at this are those against it and the only ones who will pat their backs and say "you are right" are growing smaller everyday.

This is people being themselves. Last I checked there wasn't a right way to do things...

There is a larger enemy out there and it's not whether someone wants the surgery or not...
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Cindy

 :police:
Give me a reason why this thread should continue. It is, in my opinion, non-productive, a total waste of time and just leads to more hostility.

Cindy
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JungianZoe

I'm going to paint a big ol' target on my back here because I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.  I wrote this elsewhere and think it's time for me to air it publicly.  Please note that this is about the definition of transsexual, not about anything else.

--------------------------------------------

The view being espoused by some post-op women of late does not, for the most part, define penis=man and vagina=woman so simplistically.  It has to do with desire: if you desire to surgically alter your physical organs, you're transsexual, but if you do not desire to alter your physical organs, you're simply not transsexual.  It has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman because, as we all know, sex does not equal gender.

So if sex does not equal gender, then why are we forced to accept transsexual and transgender as synonymous?  The way we see the transsexual condition is that our desire to alter our bodies to match how we feel inside burns to the point of having to choose either death or surgery.  And since, at least in America, surgery is financially out of the question for many transsexuals, too many of us choose death since we see it as the only option.  We'd LOVE to drive the point home to the populous, to bureaucrats, to insurance companies, that our condition is not a choice or a lifestyle option.  Surgery is NOT optional when the only alternative is death.

But our voice is drowned out as we're told to conform to the TG umbrella and say that we're no different than people for whom death isn't a viable alternative to total physical transition.  That's where our passion comes from.  And yes, we have compassion.  Yes, we have hearts.  Yes, we have feelings.  We're human beings and imperfect as a result.  You want to know why transsexual men aren't included in what appears to be a rigid demarcation of surgical-based terminology?  Because if a transsexual man desires surgery, then he is transsexual.  If he chooses not to accept the current methods because of functional or aesthetic reasons, that's okay.  Trust me: your transsexual sisters' hearts bleed for you because we don't know what it's like to have these passions for physical change and no option that produces a result where nobody could tell the difference between you and someone born with the right genetics.  Not to mention the cost, which is exorbitant compared to our surgeries!  To us, that's unthinkable pain.

Likewise, we have deep compassion for those who desire a surgical option but are unable to go under the knife due to health reasons.  It once again comes down to the desire to surgically change one's sex organs.

So what about those who don't desire a full change or for whom their thoughts don't scream "surgery or die" on an hourly basis?  Sorry, but we don't see how that can be called transsexual, because sex does not equal gender and so not wanting to change sex organs doesn't really fit our terminology.  And here's the point of contention: everyone under the transgender umbrella gets to call themselves what they are.  Crossdressers can call themselves crossdressers.  TVs are TVs.  Androgynes are androgynes.  They even get to discuss why other groups aren't like them.  But woe to the transsexual who stands up and says "I am transsexual and here is why."  No, we're forced to call ourselves the umbrella term, thus forcibly being told that we're no different than anyone else.  Our need to choose surgery or suicide is completely negated by people who blissfully continue life with the body parts they're born with.  When's the last time you told a suicidal person that their feelings simply didn't matter and that they don't need specialized care or an extra lifeline?  Well, we're fighting for that care and those lifelines for all who wish to reach for them, regardless of income.

But without a clear and defining public message, we'll NEVER see those lifelines materialize.  Our stance isn't one of saying "screw the rest of you" but instead is fighting for what we need for our survival.  If we muddy the message with the agendas of people who don't have the suicide rate of transsexuals, then we won't see results that cause those rates to dip.  It's like saying people with major depressive disorder are no different than people with narcissistic personality disorder simply because both disorders are in the DSM.

Is this making any more sense?  It goes way beyond penis=man and vagina=woman.  That's both an oversimplification and demonization of our message and our goals.  We have no intention of telling anyone how to transition or who they are, just please don't say you're one of us if you're not because what good is terminology otherwise?  If you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, do you call yourself black?  See?  It doesn't work that way.
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Forever21Chic


Quote from: Lilith on November 05, 2011, 01:34:06 AM
Also by claiming publicly that you enjoy your penis, you're jeopardizing the lives of true transsexuals (those who really need surgery, those for whom surgery is a matter of life and death) 

You claim our birth condition, then you post that since surgery isn't important to you, it must not be for anyone with true transsexualism. That is not just offensive, it already has put GRS, a lifesaving treatment for actual sufferers of true transsexualism at risk. That's reality.


   I hate when people try' n label themselves "true transsexuals" when there is no such thing. We're all transsexuals here, just because you would rather die then keep your balls doesn't make you a "true transsexual" it just means your gender dysphoria is mainly focused around your genital area, nothing more. For some it's their facial hair for others it's their deep voice and for some it's their genitals - point is we all experience gender dysphoira differently.

  Why is this so hard for some people to understand?  ::)
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Mahsa Tezani

Quote from: Cindy James on November 05, 2011, 02:08:44 AM
:police:
Give me a reason why this thread should continue. It is, in my opinion, non-productive, a total waste of time and just leads to more hostility.

Cindy

As an older transitioner, this may not be stuff you want to hear. But it is vital in creating a dialogue between the generations and those who have different views on the subject.
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Cindy

I'll reply to this as Cindy and not as a moderator.

I totally and completely agree with Zoe's comments.

There is nothing wrong or weird in being whatever sexual identity you have, there is nothing wrong with being the gender you identify with.

I identify as female and for me to be complete I need my surgery. There are enormous problems facing me in that respect.  I have total respect for people who do not want to follow my path. But please there are differences. The differences should not be a point of such aggressive misunderstanding. I do not hold to the thought that some TG are more TG than others. But I do know that some people need to have corrective surgery to keep their sanity, while others do not. There is a difference between us and we need to appreciate that difference and keep together as a larger community. This continual bickering does not do anyone any good, unless it educates. Education needs an open mind.

JMO

CJ
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Joeyboo~ :3

Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

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Annah

Zoe, I think the real crux of the problem is when someone says "you're not a woman because of this and this and this." 

Even WPATH is now interchanging the words transgender and transsexual now because they know that there simply is not a simple meaning. The spectrum is too diverse.

What matters the most to me is not whether someone calls me a transsexual rather if someone has the audacity of saying I am not a woman.

I define myself as a woman because that is who I am. To hell what anyone else thinks or say who I am. If anyone else says they are a woman or a man then who I am to say they are right or they are wrong? I am not God. I am not about to start telling someone that their gender identification is wrong because of what they look like. Society does that already to the trans people (regardless of what panel of the umbrella one belongs to).
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JungianZoe

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

How about we stop publicly targeting people, hmm?

By the way, with the exception of Lilith's first sentence, her argument is identical to mine.   How about I remove my post too?  Is our point of view not allowed anymore?  Is transsexualism illegal here?  Funny, I thought this was a support site for everyone.
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Dinky_Di

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

So what your trying to say is everything you have said is right......

That's a bit rich and not being open to other peoples views.
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Annah

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:42:55 AM
Funny, I thought this was a support site for everyone.

It is but it is hardly support when some feel that they have the moral superiority to tell someone else they are not a woman or a man. How is that supportive?
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Cen

Quote from: Cindy James on November 05, 2011, 02:31:27 AM
This continual bickering does not do anyone any good, unless it educates. Education needs an open mind.

There have been a few individuals pushing the opinion that those not intending to get GRS do not qualify as women.  They are specific enough that I do not think this is a misunderstanding.  This always results in some form of controversy.  I doubt many of the non-op position are that concerned with being called transsexual vs. transgender, when many of the pre- and post-op don't even care about that.
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Joeyboo~ :3

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:42:55 AM
How about we stop publicly targeting people, hmm?

By the way, with the exception of Lilith's first sentence, her argument is identical to mine.   How about I remove my post too?  Is our point of view not allowed anymore?  Is transsexualism illegal here?  Funny, I thought this was a support site for everyone.

Lol maybe it was a bit mean.
But she was smited 3 times for what she said.
What she said wasn't right.

Quote from: Dinky_Di on November 05, 2011, 02:43:44 AM
So what your trying to say is everything you have said is right......

That's a bit rich and not being open to other peoples views.

Of course, I'm Jesus.
Everything I say is right.

Nah, I'm open to everything.
I don't have any views.

Everything I've said makes sense and is nice.
that's the difference.
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Dinky_Di

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:49:17 AM
Lol maybe it was a bit mean.
But she was smited 3 times for what she said.
What she said wasn't right.

What was said my not be right to you, however that doesn't mean it wasn't right to others and smiting her for posting her opinion was really uncalled for.  Maybe I should go back through this thread and smite everyone who has posted a comment I don't agree with.  Not likely, I'm not that juvenile.
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Rebekah with a K-A-H

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:12:50 AM
I'm going to paint a big ol' target on my back here because I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.  I wrote this elsewhere and think it's time for me to air it publicly.  Please note that this is about the definition of transsexual, not about anything else.

Alrighty, as someone who readily accepts the labels of trans* and transsexual but has serious issues with the term "transgender", this should be interesting.

I may disagree strongly with some points you make, but I won't flame you, I promise.  I like having rational, reasonable debate that doesn't descend into chaotic accusation on both sides.

Quote
The view being espoused by some post-op women of late does not, for the most part, define penis=man and vagina=woman so simplistically.  It has to do with desire: if you desire to surgically alter your physical organs, you're transsexual, but if you do not desire to alter your physical organs, you're simply not transsexual.  It has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman because, as we all know, sex does not equal gender.

See, I'm not opposed to a categorization of transsexual as the amplified, surgically-tracked or surgery-desiring incarnation of trans* people.  But some on this board have been making statements like "women do not have penises" or "a trans woman who does not wish to remove her penis is not a woman".  In addition, I'm a strong believer in the right of people to self-identify, so to exclude people from claiming a label because of something they can't help hardly seems fair.

Quote
So if sex does not equal gender, then why are we forced to accept transsexual and transgender as synonymous?  The way we see the transsexual condition is that our desire to alter our bodies to match how we feel inside burns to the point of having to choose either death or surgery.  And since, at least in America, surgery is financially out of the question for many transsexuals, too many of us choose death since we see it as the only option.  We'd LOVE to drive the point home to the populous, to bureaucrats, to insurance companies, that our condition is not a choice or a lifestyle option.  Surgery is NOT optional when the only alternative is death.

I agree that sex and gender are separate, but there are transsexual-identified people for whom their definition of the term is different from yours.  I'm not in any position to unilaterally declare one right, nor, really, is anyone.

Quote
But our voice is drowned out as we're told to conform to the TG umbrella and say that we're no different than people for whom death isn't a viable alternative to total physical transition.  That's where our passion comes from.  And yes, we have compassion.  Yes, we have hearts.  Yes, we have feelings.  We're human beings and imperfect as a result.  You want to know why transsexual men aren't included in what appears to be a rigid demarcation of surgical-based terminology?  Because if a transsexual man desires surgery, then he is transsexual.  If he chooses not to accept the current methods because of functional or aesthetic reasons, that's okay.  Trust me: your transsexual sisters' hearts bleed for you because we don't know what it's like to have these passions for physical change and no option that produces a result where nobody could tell the difference between you and someone born with the right genetics.  Not to mention the cost, which is exorbitant compared to our surgeries!  To us, that's unthinkable pain.

Likewise, we have deep compassion for those who desire a surgical option but are unable to go under the knife due to health reasons.  It once again comes down to the desire to surgically change one's sex organs.

So what about those who don't desire a full change or for whom their thoughts don't scream "surgery or die" on an hourly basis?  Sorry, but we don't see how that can be called transsexual, because sex does not equal gender and so not wanting to change sex organs doesn't really fit our terminology.  And here's the point of contention: everyone under the transgender umbrella gets to call themselves what they are.  Crossdressers can call themselves crossdressers.  TVs are TVs.  Androgynes are androgynes.  They even get to discuss why other groups aren't like them.  But woe to the transsexual who stands up and says "I am transsexual and here is why."  No, we're forced to call ourselves the umbrella term, thus forcibly being told that we're no different than anyone else.  Our need to choose surgery or suicide is completely negated by people who blissfully continue life with the body parts they're born with.  When's the last time you told a suicidal person that their feelings simply didn't matter and that they don't need specialized care or an extra lifeline?  Well, we're fighting for that care and those lifelines for all who wish to reach for them, regardless of income.

And again, I agree with you in certain respects— I think there are differences, but I think they're between those who have a polar gender identification and those who have a spectral identification, or a lack of gender identification at all, not between those with penises and those with vulvas.

Quote
But without a clear and defining public message, we'll NEVER see those lifelines materialize.  Our stance isn't one of saying "screw the rest of you" but instead is fighting for what we need for our survival.  If we muddy the message with the agendas of people who don't have the suicide rate of transsexuals, then we won't see results that cause those rates to dip.  It's like saying people with major depressive disorder are no different than people with narcissistic personality disorder simply because both disorders are in the DSM.

Is this making any more sense?  It goes way beyond penis=man and vagina=woman.  That's both an oversimplification and demonization of our message and our goals.  We have no intention of telling anyone how to transition or who they are, just please don't say you're one of us if you're not because what good is terminology otherwise?  If you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, do you call yourself black?  See?  It doesn't work that way.

I understand your goal and I know where you're coming from, how a binary identification and a desire not to be falsely categorized by a frequently intolerant public.  But that doesn't mean you get to disenfranchise other trans* people of an identity they may wish to hold as well (and certainly not of the gender as which they wish to identify).
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Joeyboo~ :3

It was an ugly opinion.

Calling yourself a "woman" with a penis is a delusion,

  what planet are you people from anyway?


That's why she was smited.

  •  

Forever21Chic

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?



  Lol yeah i just didn't like how she preached about being a "true transsexual" if such a thing even exists. I think post-op's just have a strong dysphoria feeling towards their genitals so for them it's death or surgery, for non-op's it's other male things (voice, facial hair, body shape etc) that cause them severe dysphoria with their gender.


  That's my opinion on this. 
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