I'm deeply concerned...

[Shana A]

Thanks to everyone here for articulating concerns, I've recently also been feeling a lot of tension and conflict here on the board. I originally came here looking for companionship of others who share the same pain of being gender variant in a world that doesn't understand us, and also to offer support for others who are in this process. A couple of simple labels, TS, TG, TV, androgyne, etc., led me to believe I might find that community here. I regret to think I might have been wrong about that, I guess it's time to accept my status as a lower rung of the almighty trans ladder. 

peace!

zythyra

"I live proudly in a body of my own design. I defend my right to be
complex." -Leslie Feinberg

[Suzy]

Request To Moderators:

Could we please temporarily lock these threads dealing with the label issues to give everyone a chance to cool down?  This is so emotional that I see relationships, community, and friendships deteriorating.

In their place, could we post a list of resources concerning classification (from the wiki and/or elsewhere) for everyone to read and study so that we are at least talking about the same thing from an informed standpoint?

Kristi

[BeverlyAnn]

Before the thread is locked, I want to humbly apologize for something also.  I think I may have stirred some of this up with my post "Labels" and for that I am so sorry. (Would a moderator also please lock that thread) Also if anyone got the impression that I have anything against anyone planning on, is or has already transitioned, again I'm sorry.  I never meant to imply that and nothing could be farther from the truth.  I have nothing but admiration for the courage and fortitude that it takes to risk everything to transition.  I think people like my friends Stef, Brenda, Shannon, Sabrina and people here like Cindi are some of the bravest people in the world!

My concern has been for any younger people who may come to Susan's seeking information on where they fit in the gender spectrum.  After all we do have a lot of guests here and, after reading some of the things we've said to each other, I wonder how many have run screaming into the night in horror.  We know that some of them may come here believing they are one place as far as gender goes but may eventually find they are further along the line than they think.  Let's think of them and not try to force them into our own ideas of what anyone else is or should be.

Again I'm sorry.

Mea Cupla
Bev

[Shana A]

I have to add that one of the things that is concerning me is how some people quote HB standards, including #4, which specifies that non surgical TS exists, yet the same people quoting the standards say that either one goes all the way (HRT and SRS) or they're not TS. I believe there's room for all of us to exist.

peace!

zythyra

[Julie Marie]

My friends, I have grown concerned.

I am concerned with this recent discussion of labels, of varying degrees of ->-bleeped-<-, of categories and numbers and quizzes and results and things.  It is easy to forget, in an international society so focused on numbers and results, a simple fact. 

People are not numbers.

People are people. 
~ Blair

And as people, we are flawed.  We have doubts.  We have concerns about the impact we have on others.  We worry what they might think. 

We have a lifetime of brainwashing to overcome. 

We ask the questions in hopes of getting the answer why we are the way we are.

We categorize so we can find a group who understands us and to whom we can go when we are feeling alone.

We categorize so we know who is trying to prevent our happiness.  Maybe if we find out who they are we can talk to them and ask them why.

The problems arise when we are blinded by our need to belong and become critical and intolerant towards those who aren't in our group.  Then we're just as guilty as those we criticize.

Julie

[cindianna_jones]

I have to add that one of the things that is concerning me is how some people quote HB standards, including #4, which specifies that non surgical TS exists, yet the same people quoting the standards say that either one goes all the way (HRT and SRS) or they're not TS. I believe there's room for all of us to exist.

peace!

zythyra

I'm not sure that this is the case.  I don't know that anyone has actually posted this. I can see that feelings have been hurt and I am quite frankly stunned. If I have made a statement that has hurt someone, please let me know what it is and I will see if I can adjust my thinking.

Someone mentioned that there are elitists here in the forums. Perhaps, I am one of those included in this statement. I can assure everyone that there are no elitists here. There is no conspiracy, there is no TS religion, or even much of a community. We are all an odd assortment of individuals who share only one aspect of our lives in common. For the most part, if we were to get together as a bunch, we might share very little else. None of us have anything to gain by being a "preacher" to win a following.

Those who volunteer their time here do want this forum to be a safe haven for individuals with GID and other related issues. I can assure you that we are here to help. This is not a place where we collect, count, and classify the "haves and have nots". Very few of us are qualified to tell someone whether they "are" or "are not".... especially over the airwaves of the internet. We can only share experiences.

Come on people, this is a discussion, not a religion.  I know of a couple veterans who have left over all of this. And it truly is a loss to this forum. Their kindness, compassion, and experiences will no longer be shared with others walking the path. Where is the loss? I can assure you, it is not theirs. It is ours.

Cindi

[Ms Bev]

.......this is my soul, this is what I love, this is what I am.

Thus, a transsexual, one who has a spirit that is contradictory in overall gender to their physical sex, must transition into a state that they feel is acceptable.  Whether or not this is simply living full-time and presenting as a woman, or completely transforming oneself into the opposite, satisfactory sex is as irrelevant as hair color.

To deny any human being the basic principle of self-expression is to deny them their humanity. 



Blair

Blair, I'm no longer only concerned, I'm weary.  This whole competition over who is more TS is ludicrous.  It's like a pregnancy contest among already pregnant women.  Let the "professionals" do the test.  Yes, you are all pregnant.  But wait.....all you pregnant women who have not developed breasts......you're not as pregnant as some of us would like you to be.  Your body does not adequately match our personal opinion of what constitutes 'pregnant woman'. 

Let's get with the program, folks, either you are, or are not TS.  If acquiring a surgically-made vagina is the ideal criteria, then maybe there should be a special forum designed.  Maybe we could call it "The Master TS" forum.  Neovaginas only, please


Oh!  By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women.  No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger.  So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?

[Omika]

Blair, I'm no longer only concerned, I'm weary.  This whole competition over who is more TS is ludicrous.  It's like a pregnancy contest among already pregnant women.  Let the "professionals" do the test.  Yes, you are all pregnant.  But wait.....all you pregnant women who have not developed breasts......you're not as pregnant as some of us would like you to be.  Your body does not adequately match our personal opinion of what constitutes 'pregnant woman'. 

Let's get with the program, folks, either you are, or are not TS.  If acquiring a surgically-made vagina is the ideal criteria, then maybe there should be a special forum designed.  Maybe we could call it "The Master TS" forum.  Neovaginas only, please


Oh!  By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women.  No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger.  So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?

I think what everyone needs to really focus on is that fact that this journey is not about gender so much as it is about self-realization and self-expression.  Gender is a minor factor, in my opinion.  What's important to me is a sense of satisfaction and happiness with myself.  I just happen to be one of those individuals who wish to go "all the way" in transition.  Do I feel the need to differentiate myself from any other transgendered individual?  No.  I'm me, they're they.  Are we both happy?  Then we've both succeeded.

Thanks, though, Bev.  I'm glad there's a few out there who are willing to wake up and look past all this nonsense.

~ Blair

[Stormy Weather]

...only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women.  No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger.

No? Damn...

[LostInTime]

The labels exist for a reason.  One of the genesis stories for the evolution of gender being used in the way we do now was because the language had grown cumbersome for the researchers and the readers of said research.

I do a lot of research because I lecture on the construction of gender and also gender variance (which covers almost the entire LGBTIQ rainbow although I usually focus on the transgender aspect).  There are differences among those of us who are transgender.  Then within that own classification there may be a breakdown of smaller subsets.  Secondary transsexuals typically are okay if they do not get surgery and go on to lead a productive life without it.  it is important to understand the differences so that people can get the help that they need.  If you are coming here as your only source of therapy, you really need to find an actual therapist who specialises in gender therapy.  This board is a collection of individuals with many opinions, often strong opinions which is expected since this is a part of a person's overall identity.

A friend of mine is a cross dresser.  He is the only CD that is a real world friend of mine because he gets that there is a huge difference between our respective gender variances while many others I have met (who also CD) do not.  Does that make me better than him?  Absolutely not.  neither one of us is better than the other on that aspect.

Labels do not have to observed by the individual.  I often say that I am I.  That I is a lot of things.  Female, transsexual, geek, bisexual, martial artist, BDSMer, etc, etc.  I do not decide which hat I am going to wear when I get up, they all apply to me.  However, I am not going to try and delude myself into thinking that the labels do not exist.

When we are all the same then labels will not matter.  If I happen to be alive on that day, please shoot me because I like being different.

[Shana A]

I'm not sure that this is the case.  I don't know that anyone has actually posted this. I can see that feelings have been hurt and I am quite frankly stunned. If I have made a statement that has hurt someone, please let me know what it is and I will see if I can adjust my thinking.

Cindi, I have never read anything hurtful in any of your posts, and hold you in the highest regard as a contributor to the boards. I don't remember which thread it was, but it did contain criticism of non-op TS, essentially saying that they aren't considered TS. IIRC, the same person saying this had also posted the HB definition of Level 4 non surgical TS. I perceived this as being hypocritical. Perhaps they didn't mean it as such, it's just how I perceived it. On the internet we're reduced to reading someone's words, without hearing the tone in their voice or seeing body language, so things can get misunderstood easily. Anyway, enough from me on this thread, it looks like it's simmered down, which is probably a good thing...

zythyra

[Brianna]

What's that? I can't hear you over the drama.

Bri

[Omika]

What's that? I can't hear you over the drama.

Bri

hlep my earz r bleedign lolol

lol srsly i try 2 post sumthign prety and upliftign adn liek, half of every1 getz all dramarama lol

mebbe ill jsut stop tryign LOL!!!11!!11shifteleventyone!!1

~ Blair

[Kate]

Awwwwlllll!!! He or she is adorable! What a face!

Not that the cat IS adorable mind you, adorable in this case being used to describe this cat in this moment, and is not meant to categorize him or her into a group of ADORABLE cats as a sense of identity which is better than NON-ADORABLE CATS which shouldn't feel any less for being so.

Kate

[Omika]

   

srsly

~ Blair

[Shana A]

mrreowww

[Maud]

Oh!  By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women.  No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger.  So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?[/color]

Funnily enough I measured up my boob size this morning, 'parently I'm a C. . Horray for hourglass shaped figures extremely massive shoulderblades and extremely pointy (needs me some progesterone) boobs that point outwards distorting my bra measures.

This made me giggle.

edit, should make a serious post so here we go:


blair: stop giving a toss.

No one can stop you from transitioning you're defined for the most part by your actions not your words if you just can't hack transition then it may not be the best idea for you, simple as. constantly getting your knickers in a twist about whether you're a real ->-bleeped-<- or not gets you nowhere fast, it doesn't get you brownie points and it does not get you empathy in large quantities. It is you and you only who decides where your life heads and if you can't take the opinion of a few trans people on a forum then you sure as hell won't be able to hack the real world because it's tough out there, people won't understand you, they'll assume you're something you're not and unless you manage to do the stealth bit allot of people will constantly see you in ways other than how you wish to be seen for the rest of your life. It's not impossible and you develop a thick skin and you're young enough to probably be able to pass without a hitch.

You cannot expect people throughout your entire life to just accept you for who you claim to be, they'll accept you for who you act like, whining and moaning about it does nothing to remedy this. you can complain about gender conformity from here to the ends of the earth but either you come off as a plausable woman or you don't, you can't complain your way out of that no matter how many clever posts you think you make.

I don't know your situation intimately and what type of stuff you're going through but I'm experienced in my own life enough to know that I shouldn't pretend to be able to judge you in any way, some people on this forum knew who I used to be elsewhere on the interwebs and gods was I an angry little twunt and I suspect if it wasn't for the fact that a few people in the community I refer to had met me in real life when I came out I suspect I would have got a "lol" as a response instead of the acceptence and help which I did receive.

Take this as you will they are just my thoughts based on my experiences from majorly turning my life around from being the angery little twunt who thought they where better than everyone else but hated everything about themselves to the person I am today who I'm fairly comfortable with.

Ulitmately, the proof is in the pudding, transition if you have the will to and if you're successful then more power to you.


edit 2: final sentiment


Transition's all about being yourself, labels mean very little as you are who you are and you just can't change it, if you feel you need to transition 100% and that deep down you're female that means you're a MTF transexual, it's not worth you getting your knickers in a twist about it.

[Omika]

Oh!  By the way, I've considered yet another forum, haven't thought of a name for it yet, but only TS's with C-cup breasts will be considered 'real' women.  No....sorry, neovaginas may not be substituted for 'womanly' breasts of C-cup of larger.  So.....are all you 'real' girls going to join me?[/color]

Funnily enough I measured up my boob size this morning, 'parently I'm a C. . Horray for hourglass shaped figures extremely massive shoulderblades and extremely pointy (needs me some progesterone) boobs that point outwards distorting my bra measures.

This made me giggle.

edit, should make a serious post so here we go:


blair: stop giving a toss.

No one can stop you from transitioning you're defined for the most part by your actions not your words if you just can't hack transition then it may not be the best idea for you, simple as. constantly getting your knickers in a twist about whether you're a real ->-bleeped-<- or not gets you nowhere fast, it doesn't get you brownie points and it does not get you empathy in large quantities. It is you and you only who decides where your life heads and if you can't take the opinion of a few trans people on a forum then you sure as hell won't be able to hack the real world because it's tough out there, people won't understand you, they'll assume you're something you're not and unless you manage to do the stealth bit allot of people will constantly see you in ways other than how you wish to be seen for the rest of your life. It's not impossible and you develop a thick skin and you're young enough to probably be able to pass without a hitch.

You cannot expect people throughout your entire life to just accept you for who you claim to be, they'll accept you for who you act like, whining and moaning about it does nothing to remedy this. you can complain about gender conformity from here to the ends of the earth but either you come off as a plausable woman or you don't, you can't complain your way out of that no matter how many clever posts you think you make.

I don't know your situation intimately and what type of stuff you're going through but I'm experienced in my own life enough to know that I shouldn't pretend to be able to judge you in any way, some people on this forum knew who I used to be elsewhere on the interwebs and gods was I an angry little twunt and I suspect if it wasn't for the fact that a few people in the community I refer to had met me in real life when I came out I suspect I would have got a "lol" as a response instead of the acceptence and help which I did receive.

Take this as you will they are just my thoughts based on my experiences from majorly turning my life around from being the angery little twunt who thought they where better than everyone else but hated everything about themselves to the person I am today who I'm fairly comfortable with.

Ulitmately, the proof is in the pudding, transition if you have the will to and if you're successful then more power to you.

I have absoloutely no idea as to what inspired this response.  Did you even read what I wrote?

The topic had nothing to do with me personally, other than the fact that I think people around here seem to be a little too focused on tiers/labels and a little less focused on community/love/acceptance lately.

Matter of fact, this kind of reply is exactly what I'm talking about.  There's a whisper of ego in this "well, maybe this transition thing isn't for you" statement.  I've noticed a lot of people here are very quick to point that particular finger.  Why?  I don't really understand it.  We are who we are.

I'd like to directly quote your final sentiment, though, for emphasis.

"Transition's all about being yourself, labels mean very little as you are who you are and you just can't change it, if you feel you need to transition 100% and that deep down you're female that means you're a MTF transexual, it's not worth you getting your knickers in a twist about it."

My knickers aren't in a twist about it.  You just summed up the entire original topic that I wrote.  It was an observation and an expression of my concern.  Did you read it, or do we use everything around here as a pretext to make things personal?

I'm kind of disappointed.  I write to inspire, and most of what I get in response is dramazorslollol.

Read posts before you go making personal accusations and asessments of other people, please.  I am completely at peace, really, this entire process is something that I "hack" quite well.  I'm here to help and to get feedback from like-minds.  However, this becomes difficult when people completely misunderstand what I write.

~ Blair

[HelenW]

Yes, but the round waffles are infinitely superior to the square ones.  That's why I have a ROUND waffle machine and use only REAL maple flavored sugar free syrup!  >

Blair, I betcha didn't think you would ever start another one of those "label" threads, didja? 

On the other hand, as long as we remain cognizant of the labels' limitations, they can and do serve a purpose.  They're like any other tool.  They can hurt, they can help.

hugs & smiles
helen

[Ms Bev]

Also, this thread is now about waffles and their obvious superiority to pancakes.

I Never waffle on a subject.  French Toast is superior to both.  I fed all three to Harry Benjamin, and he wrote a 23 page report supporting this decision.  So.....REAL WOMEN EAT FRENCH TOAST!

Bev