The anti-war thread.

[Mahsa Tezani]

Protect it from who ?   

Ok your poor but you have mentioned your daddy isn't..

Yeah, my dad is pretty rich. But I don't live with him.

Protect my country from aliens, giant praying mantises, godzilla, mothra, rodan, Rodan Bin Laden, Commies, teenagers, & draculas.

[Devlyn]

Emoxon, I wish you had stayed, I was enjoying the conversation. Farewell and best wishes, hugs, Tracey

[Jen61]

The "Arab Spring" taken together with the "occupy wall street" movement are for the first time a true global movement, a very unique sociological phenomena triggered by the globalization of the planet.

With the exception of a few extreme radical religious or communist countries, the rest of the world are but infected by mercantilism greed. Mercantilism is as old a human, and IMO the motivator of invention and innovation by the needs of war.

We are at a crossroad in human history and it has nothing to do with 1% but rather with overpopulation. In ten or fifteen years at the most, larger scale global uprising will begin due to shortages of energy, food, and clean water. How the global powers (1%) handled those uprisings will determine the future of the planet for centuries to come.

Many scenarios can be contemplated, one possible scenario is that corporations and nations will decide to profit out of this shortages. This scenario could easily lead to nasty high intense local wars (more profits boys!). War or not war, in any scenario the underlaying problem remains: To many humans, not enough food, clean water, and/or energy !

The solution ? Short of a miracle (e.g. nuclear fusion), drastic population reduction ! but how ?


Jen61

[Devlyn]

Jen61, nothing like war to reduce the population! As you state, overpopulation leads to global food, water, and energy shortages. "Grog ate my berries! Whack!"

[Zaria]

I have done a little military service... Infantry reserves only here in Canada.   I'm not a pacifist and believe that countries have the right to defend themselves. 

That being said, most current wars that the west is involved in seems tied to oil.  If the US (and Canada) would stop meddling in other nations conflicts, they would have a lot less to worry about.    Personally I believe that the US will be forced by financial reasons to downsize their military drastically in the next decade. 

Hugs
Zaria

[Anatta]

Jen61, nothing like war to reduce the population! As you state, overpopulation leads to global food, water, and energy shortages. "Grog ate my berries! Whack!"

Kia Ora,

Many spiritual belief systems believe we are 'one' with nature="Mother Earth" ...So could Mother Nature  be manipulating the minds of  man with the thoughts of war, because She feels this is a quick but brutal way of creating harmony=balancing out life on this planet ?

After all, humans as far a life goes are only part of life[just one of living things on the this planet] not life itself....

Food for thought...[A bit far out but none the less a possibility-leave no stone unturned when looking for answers]

Metta Zenda

[Jen61]

Jen61, nothing like war to reduce the population!

Hi, Tracey,

Deaths by WWI = 15 Millions, deaths by flu pandemic of 1918 = 50 millions. Current estimated number of deaths to stabilize world population to sustainable number = 1,000 millions. No conventional war can produce that results; that lives without solution.

Jen61

[tekla]

We need to protect American from terrorists.
Are you suggesting that we use the army to: a) clean up Congress, b) drive the lobbyists into exile, and c) stop the Republican debates?  Interesting idea. 

In the 40some years I've been paying attention to such things the biggest terrorists America has to worry about all seem to all be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.  And if you really want to protect this nation from them the first step is not to elect them.


The current wars are about oil.  But the next set of wars is going to be about water.  (currently two, the long running problem in India/Pakistan in Kashmir is over water, the Siachen Glacier in particular, as well as being a huge part of the Golan Heights issue)

[Cindy]

Robert Heinlein argued the perspective that all wars were fought for economic advantage (Starship Trooper). It is difficult not to agree. As for 'armies' protecting against terrorism; it doesn't, has never, and will not work. The war of the flea is an old book but still very true.

If a 'terrorist' is committed enough to be a suicide bomber, little will stop them, except luck in detecting them. I think I'm correct in saying that soldiers do not sign up to die. Terrorists do. There is a big difference in that concept.

Cindy

[Amazon D]

Personally i think the powers to be are reaching and grabing for what they can while they are simultaneously  reducing the masses of the populations access to goods through downsizing production and consumerism in the largest consumer countries.

Then when the poor become a blight to the rich they will be seen as not worthy of being allowed to exist since well they are a blight in the rich's eyes..

What means will they reduce our numbers i am not sure but it won't be by wars. (except it seems a war in the middle-east is inevitable due to religions control and desire for one) They are just a means for the powers that be to amass all they can in the mean time. China is amassing all it can right now in hopes it too is one of the powers to be at the end.. Then they like many other governments will reduce populations as they choose seeing it as the greater need to save the earth.

Oh they will allow some people to exist because they will be seen as agrarian types and not big consumer types..

Also the robot is near the point where it will make all the things the rich and powerful will need.

The USA is being lowered on the totem pole and the other countries are raising up their bases and well most think a big giant war will come but i doubt that because the powers to be will want to preserve some of human relics and will simple find another way to reduce the masses of the population..

However, along the way will come a antichrist like figure who will offer the masses of mankind a safety net while at the same time leading them all into their demise..

Finally either a alien / God will come to rescue us or well the powers to be will have a wonderful world with billions removed for earths salvation..

Where will you be is the question ?? Myself i am living near / with the amish who are an agrarian type of people and i have downsized my consumerism quite drastically.

[BlonT]

A very long time ago there where no wars ! no strongholds.
Now *we (in most countries )* can elect the ones that represent *us*
*us* = the people,  but that is not you and me !
Elect mmmm NONE is saying my point .
All governments want more children born !  Even if the have no food or water.
All have hidden agenda,s .

PS. Tekla love your reply

[Anatta]

What do you do to help stop wars? It seems there are few answers. This conversation started in "Roll call" and I thought it needed a home of its own.

Kia Ora Tracey,

1) Get the world's pharmaceutical  companies to collaborate and come up with a cheap safe and effective multipurpose  'Antidepressant'...

2) Get everyone to take a course in  vipassana  meditation...

Is it the happy or sad[depressed] person that starts more wars ?

Metta Zenda

[Devlyn]

Hi Zenda, I, for one, don't want to be doped up on anti-depressants! I started this thread because I sensed this whole conversation coming and didn't want it my "Roll call" thread, a place for veterans, families and friends. I'm not sure why Emoxon left, but I just picked a few words out of the air to start a topic. But I have enjoyed the cavespeak part! Hugs, Tracey

[Anatta]

Hi Zenda, I, for one, don't want to be doped up on anti-depressants! I started this thread because I sensed this whole conversation coming and didn't want it my "Roll call" thread, a place for veterans, families and friends. I'm not sure why Emoxon left, but I just picked a few words out of the air to start a topic. But I have enjoyed the cavespeak part! Hugs, Tracey

Kia Ora Tracey,

The remark about the anti depressant was just to bring to your attention an important fact[in fact an irrefutable truth you could say] "happy and mentally stable people, don't 'intentionally' start wars ! They have too much to loose if they do= 'peace of mind'...

I believe the underline reason why we humans tend to start wars and commit atrocities is due in no small part to a somewhat 'unhappy' negative 'unstable' mind...hence the anti-depressant comment...However it's also a fact that for some people anti-depressants work, lifting them out of the doom and gloom of their depressed state-making their world seem a little brighter...World leaders are [for the most part] human and are also prone to the Western world's fastest grown disease=depression...

Many world leaders are good at the propaganda war and manipulating the population by social engineering, sadly once the seeds of war are planted 'mob mentality' tends to take over...

Until man understands himself [ The Buddha, Aristotle, Jesus all agreed on this simple truth] there will always be conflict, not only with others but within oneself and the latter is the hardest foe to conquer...

This is where Vipassana meditation[which is used both in spiritual and secular circles ] comes into play, it's been around for at least  two and a half thousand years it's weathered the test of time, many people in the West are reaping its benefits, but sadly not enough so it would seem...

People fear what they don't understand so to delve into the deep dark crevices of ones mind, bring for many the fear of losing one'self' when in fact there is no self to be lost...Only beneficial knowledge to gained..

So my response was not to mock your thread but to provide an insight that many tend to overlook/dismiss...

Like charity begins at home so peace begins within-it's a no brainer...By implementing this long term solution-starting with our children, by doing so will do away with the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach...


It won't happen over night, but it will could happen ! Fingers crossed XX XX


Metta Zenda    

[JessicaH]

People are no differnent than any other species on the planet in that they individually and collectively "fight" for resources. It Darwinism at it's finest and the strongest and smartest survive and procreate. It's ugly, brutal and every other nasty thing you can call it but it has ultimately led to the success of humans as a species although we have evolved to the point that we can create the technology to destroy all life on the planet.

Personally, I think there ARE some things worth fighting for, killing for and maybe even dying for.

[cadeliara@yahoo.com]

Good point Tracey, I may have started to hijack the other thread, so I'll post again here.

I am anti-war and have been an active campaigner for a few years. I am opposed to both Iraq and Afghanistan, aswell as intervention in Libya and Kosovo. Basically I believe that western (or any for that matter) governments and ruling classes fight wars to serve their interests, not those of ordinary people. What I would call Imperialism, is not about peace, or humanitarian invention (an oxymoron in my opinion) but about money. The west doesn't worry about Somalia or piracy because it has an interest in world peace, but because it interferes with trade. A good example of this is that after the arab spring, William Hague (UK foreign minister) toured the countries that had recently overthrown their old governments, with him went 50 arms dealers seeking to make money.

However while I am opposed to Imperialist war, I am not a pacifist or against individual soldiers. Soldiers of boths sides are the poorest people, with the most to loose and the least to gain.

Normally I wouldn't post in a thread like this as usually people that only know each other online and are otherwise strangers will be more heavy handed with their opinions and that will send a thread like this spiraling into two camps vehemently against the other.

The reason I DID decide to comment is the highlighted section from your post.

I will have to disagree with you on that point. The only thing the US did NOT do correctly in Kosovo is intervene in time and with the proper forces. I personally watched Serbian militia trucks hauling off Kosovar Albanian civilians to an end I could only imagine in my worst nightmares and have a 7.62mm reminder just east of my spine as a memory of that ungodly place and time. Half of my best friends family perished there for no other reason than being born in the wrong place, following the words of a different deity.

What happened there (not unlike Rwanda, Sudan and many many other places) is beyond any semblance of humanity. I agree that involving ourselves in every corner of the world is not only imperialistic and something that we can not maintain, but what example are we showing when we let THOSE places bleed while we pour a trillion dollars and thousands upon thousands of both American and foreign lives into mistakes like Iraq.

War exists and will always exist as long as there are two people on the planet vying for resources, attention and/or supremacy of belief. That unfortunately will never end, but for me I would think that to show a semblance of civilization on our part and potentially an example to others, we would be able to help people and places that truly need our help and concentrate our efforts on uniting the civilized world in those efforts.

Alas, my deeply hidden idealism shows in that statement but I think we (pragmatically at least) need to pick a side and stick to it. We either commit to help or entrench at home and watch the world burn. You can't do a little of both.


On a side note, as far as the comment about keeping us safe here in America, if you think that this country's greatest enemies and harm to our people will come from abroad, I think you are living in a different nation than I. Lack of education, and opportunity, ignorance and apathy of the populace and a rapidly evolving two class system in which the plutocrats and oligarchs prey on that same ignorance and apathy I believe is a FAR greater threat than anything someone in a cave in Afghanistan can cook up.


I will don my flamesuit now as I am sure to have dripped out some kerosene around some folks with torches and pitchforks.

[Cindy]

You can put away the fire retardant

You make several very good points. Military action is a positive to save lives of the innocent. Kosovo is a fine example, and my sorrow for your loss and injuries. But I think we need to remove that, or regard that differently to warfare. As far as I'm aware is that the military action in Kosovo, for example, was just that, to protect people. With some disgusting failures that will forever be a blemish of the integrity of some countries troops, who allowed civilians to be lead away while 'under their protection'. But I will not add to the flames. War fare in Iraq and Afghanistan hid or hides behind the flag of helping people, in reality it is an economic war to keep oil for the USA, and presumably a few friends.

As for picking sides and staying I agree, Zimbabwe has been tortured to death by Mugabe, but there is no police action there, they have nothing that the USA and its allies want.

Cindy

[Gadgett]

I think it boils down to a simple question. Are people naturally violent? Is it built into our DNA?

I remember when I was a little kid watching two infants maybe about 2 yrs old. One was playing with a toy and the other reached out and took the toy away from the one started to play with it. The first started crying and tried to take it back and the second pushed the first.

I think this here is here is the basic and bare bones of why we have and will always have war.

The second reason why is just as Alfred told Bruce Wayne in Batman.. "Some people just want to watch the world burn."

[Julie Marie]

The best way to stop war is to remove the profit from it.  There isn't a corporation in the world that will make weapons, fighter jets, war ships or battle gear if they can't make a profit.

All we have to do is vote out those politicians who hand money hand over fist to war defense contractors.  The rest will take care of itself.

[Michelle.]

Remove profit motive, eh? That didn't stop the USSR from invading Afghanistan.

No more ships? The nation with the largest navy controls the high seas and thus trade.

Roll over and play dead? Often dosent work for opossums.

Now why we need to spend TWICE as much as rest of the world combined is a point of debate for cost savings.