Why Does Your Faith Have To Be "The Right One"?

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,
"First of all Annah I would like to compliment you on your diligence when providing points of reference and to also commend you on your steadfastness [Sticking to your guns so to speak]...However .........My comments in red" 

Humankind, since intelligence became of them have looked above themselves to have faith in something higher than themselves.

One cannot prove humankind "invented" religion or if they "discovered" it. No one will ever know how the exact details came to pass.

"I find this very hard to believe, again one would have to have 'faith' to believe this ! And your above statement does in a way state that man 'came up with'  religion-When looking for something greater than themselves !"

As did almost every other book written during that time including secular centric writings. Religion was just one slice of the pie as a rallying cry to commit to war. Other reasoning as I stated earlier were also responsible. To blame religion entirely or say it was the majority of all killings throughout history and modern times has some hints of truths but to entirely blame religion is relaxing the hand on other motives in which people kill.

"'Entirely !' Your words Annah, not mine !"

Death is death no matter the method applied to it. A life is lost.

"Then why go out of your way to give examples of how 'bad' atheists atrocities were and how many they have killed[in modern times using modern means]  compared to theists with their swords and bows and arrows! It would seem your means of comparison leaves out then and now-ancient verses modern times[within the last 150 years]

The point of religion is the point of the believer. There is no point in religion for someone who does not believe. A believer in a certain religion believes in their diety(ies).

"Annah, this would be all well and good if this were true, however many of them expect non believers to adhere to what 'their' so called deities have deemed moral/true, according to their holy books..."

It is up to others who do not believe in that religion to have the respect to allow them to worship. Likewise, it is up to others who do believe in a religion to have respect to those who do not have a faith.

"True...But throughout history 'for the most part' it was the religious who disrespected those who chose not to believe and those who believed in a different god/s[squabbling amongst themselves so to speak and as well as persecuting the non believers] ...Nowadays,  I 'believe' humanistic atheism and the free thinkers *agnostics* [of the age of enlightenment] have brought this respect to the table and the religious theists were forced to come to the party or become even more isolated from mainstream society ..."

When someone makes fun, belittles, degrades, or find another person's beliefs (or no beliefs) wrong, then we repeat the cycle all over again with intolerance.

"True...But I would presume one who has 'faith' would not 'fear' what another says about them or their belief in a god...To do so would indicate insecurity on their part,[or if you like a lack of 'faith'] And if this is the case then what's the point in living with this uncertainty about a so called almighty creator/benefactor ? Having faith in this case would serve no beneficial purpose whatsoever..."

As I stated four previous times, no, it would not work. It's been tried before (less than a hundred years ago) and millions of religious people died for their beliefs. When someone believes in something, you cannot weed it out like an antibiotic to bacteria.

"One hundred years is a very short span, it took 2000 years to get Christianity up and running and it's still on shaky ground- with all the splinter groups/cults that have sprouted from it all claiming their slice/version of the truth!"

And to assume only civilized "man" is civilized because they do not worship a god is narrow minded.

"What is it that all Abrahamic religions have in common ? A  'narrow minded' belief that their faith is the right one and that god chose them ! Civilised man does not need  a 'faith' in a god to know what's 'right' "

As am I. As I explained in numerous posts, blood has been spilled in the name of a particular religion and blood has been spilled in the name of an Atheist action.

"Have I said anything different ?"

And as I pointed out faith should not be comparable to a ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. When an ostrich does this it has a false security in thinking that if it cannot see the threat then the threat is no longer there.


Faith is so much more deeper than that and it in no way comes close to the allegory of the Ostrich and the Sand. I am not here to convince you nor am I here to explain to you how faith works. You either have faith in something or you don't. I am responding to your posts because your posts exhibits the behavior of exactly what the original poster was asking.

"I had to smile when I read this ![But I'm guessing you don't see the funny side]... However  at times you do tend to come across as having to be right, and perhaps find it difficult when others challenge your understanding/personal beliefs...I enjoy a challenge...I guess it's because I enjoy life..."


our answer to eliminating the chances of people fighting over faith and religion as being the right one is to get rid of all of them so that there are no more arguments over the right one, ergo, you become guilty over your own explanations by saying "My non centric God belief has to be the right one because the only way to stop the violence is to get rid of god centric religion."  You are being hoisted by your own petard.

"What  "

And being happy with oneself and others despite faith, religion, politics, etc is a big step to peace.

"What is it that both Islam and Christianity as a whole wants ? To save us from 'ourselves'! You of all people should know this, you yourself are a convert..."

I am not angry.

2. I am writing to show you that your own philosophy in these matters are showing a sense of "I am right and you are wrong" when my position has been and always will be, one should have the right to worship in anything or have the right to worship in nothing. When someone starts saying, "My religion is right and yours is wrong" or "Atheism is right and religion is wrong" or "My religion is right and Atheism is wrong"; those statements sound exactly the same to me. It shows little respect for diversity.

"I have respect for diversity but even as patient as I am[as a saint so I'm told ], I have little time for stupidity!"

3. I do not show anger/aggression/frustration for those religious people who despise trans people. I deliver my beliefs and convictions to the table in a manner in which I do not say "I am right and you are wrong and your way is silly." Every denomination in the Christian Church who has accepted LGBT through the witnesses of LGBT church leaders and though the fruits of their labor in these religious institutions. The saw kindness and godliness in people they had once thought to be immoral sinners. Also, our push for a more accurate interpretation of the Koine Greek in relation to homosexuality has helped the ordination of LGBT tremendously. Speaking in regards to the acceptance of LGBT in the church, anger did not win the fight. Patience and understanding did. Yes, there are other denominations who has not accepted the LGBT population but that is their lost not mine.

"But I do detect some of this towards me because of how I see things... However, I express my opinions in order to help others think a little deeper about what they believe ! My personal beliefs are my personal beliefs and when I express them, people should see them as such...If they find them threatening in any way, that's an issue for them to sort out[with their god/s]..."

Every Sunday morning, I put on my clerical collar and deliver the Christian word of God to a Church in Lancaster, PA and a few days later I attend Coven and cite the rede and embrace earth spirituality. I embrace evolution, I embrace all religions, I am a 3rd degree witch and next year an Ordained Christian Pastor.

"Good on you! However if it weren't for the free thinkers and humanistic atheism you would have been burnt at the stake by now! Think about it !  'Christianity and Paganism' make strange bedfellow... "

I attend a Seminary with three Atheists who are my closest friends, my boyfriend is Buddhist, and my Seminarian Vice President is gay and married to the college bookstore Manager. I could not be happier. I am not just saying these words on a forum, I am living out my convictions. I truly enjoy the company of every philosophy out there and I enjoy the company of every type of person as long as they do not disrespect other people's convictions.

"I'm truly happy for you and your conviction[BTW how long did you get ?  ]... My work involves helping people of all walks of life who are in  'need' [desperate need in some cases].. I see the 'person' who is suffering, not their religious conviction or lack of...

I bring my compassion and understanding without judgement to my work , I guess, like many I also live out my conviction too!"

Theism and atheism are NOT and have NEVER been compatible, history highlights this truth ! And no matter how one tries, one can not bring these two opposing mind sets together in harmony- for any 'long period of time' that is!
Like two opposing thoughts can NOT occupy the same space at the same time within ones mind, this applies to the theist and atheist ! 

It would be illogical to think otherwise! 'Faith verses logic and reason'... One as got to give way for the other ! Or be prepared to exists in a very 'diluted' form/state !

"Faith" in something does not mean it will come to pass. These two ARE facts that empirical evidence does support.

We may not see eye to eye but I thank you Annah, for providing some food for thought for not only myself, but for others who read your comments too...


Metta Zenda

[Annah]

Kia Ora,

"I find this very hard to believe, again one would have to have 'faith' to believe this ! And your above statement does in a way state that man 'came up with'  religion-When looking for something greater than themselves !"

My previous statements tell how humans since they became intelligent had a yearn to seek out something higher than themselves. This does not mean they "made it up."  The issue remains that no one will be able to prove if man created religion or discovered it.

And yes, it is a matter of faith...just as you have faith that humankind created religion because you will never have the proof you need to know for sure if it was created.

Death is death no matter the method applied to it. A life is lost.

"Then why go out of your way to give examples of how 'bad' atheists atrocities were and how many they have killed[in modern times using modern means]  compared to theists with their swords and bows and arrows! It would seem your means of comparison leaves out then and now-ancient verses modern times[within the last 150 years]

My point still stands that a death is a death. I do not measure the value of killing because of how efficient it is. The fact of the matter is, people died.

Furthermore I never made any comparisons between bows and arrows and machine guns. I made the point that humankind's desire to harm and inflict pain is here regardless of religion and it matters not what instrument they use to carry it out. The act of killing is still the same.

"Annah, this would be all well and good if this were true, however many of them expect non believers to adhere to what 'their' so called deities have deemed moral/true, according to their holy books..."

And likewise, many non believers (and yourself) makes suggestions that they should abandon their beliefs to make the world a better place. This to me, is no different than religious people doing it to non believers to make the world a better place....what I have been saying in the last five posts.

"True...But throughout history 'for the most part' it was the religious who disrespected those who chose not to believe and those who believed in a different god/s[squabbling amongst themselves so to speak and as well as persecuting the non believers] ...Nowadays,  I 'believe' humanistic atheism and the free thinkers *agnostics* [of the age of enlightenment] have brought this respect to the table and the religious theists were forced to come to the party or become even more isolated from mainstream society ..."

And as I stated earlier, religious related violence is not the only violence here on earth. People have killed in the name of God, people have killed in the name of territory, people have killed in the name of sex, people have killed in the name of Atheism. I do not look at one portion and then point my fingers and scream foul. I look at the whole picture.

"True...But I would presume one who has 'faith' would not 'fear' what another says about them or their belief in a god...To do so would indicate insecurity on their part,[or if you like a lack of 'faith'] And if this is the case then what's the point in living with this uncertainty about a so called almighty creator/benefactor ? Having faith in this case would serve no beneficial purpose whatsoever..."

People who have in faith in whatever they believe in should not fear when another says something about their religion; however, people do act that way. Hence my points in the first two posts on this thread. Atrocities has been committed because of ignorance, fear and pride over religion. Then again, as my point continues, atheists has done the same exact thing as well as others under different convictions (such as territory, honor, money, etc)

"One hundred years is a very short span, it took 2000 years to get Christianity up and running and it's still on shaky ground- with all the splinter groups/cults that have sprouted from it all claiming their slice/version of the truth!"

Again, you have been misinformed. Christian has been up and running since the earliest Roman manuscripts speaks of Christian as early as 90 CE. Furthermore, the religion was so stable that once the goths and other people sacked Rome on August 24, 410, the Christian churches and ecclesiastical standing remained unshaken despite the Roman Empire's infrastructure crumbling before their eyes.

It is not debate but a fact that the Christian religion was like a small candle giving hope to others during the Dark Ages when everything crumbled including roads, infrastructures, aqueducts, government, education, living conditions, etc.

The Church was never on shaky ground after the dissolution of the Roman Empire. They continued under the Holy Roman Empire and then the Orthodox Church in the East formed as a result of earlier councils.

The Christian Church was alive and well even before it became the Roman State Religion on February 27, 380 CE under Emperor Constantine.

I am not sure where you received information stating that Christianity took 2000 years to get it up and running but your information is in error.

"What is it that all Abrahamic religions have in common ? A  'narrow minded' belief that their faith is the right one and that god chose them ! Civilised man does not need  a 'faith' in a god to know what's 'right' "

Again, attacking religions as being narrow minded is narrow minded. It is quite clear you hate the Abrahamic religions and I am not here to convince that you shouldn't hate them. If that is your thing then that is your thing, but I am also here to tell you, I have studied the Bible for over eight years in a post graduate environment and yes there is violence in the Bible and acts of aggression and narrow mindedness, but my whole entire point is: This exists in ALL forms of religion and non religion. Religion is not to blame, Abrahamic religions is not to blame, Atheism is not to blame. Humanity is to blame for narrow-mindedness occurs in every facet of human civilization.

[quote Annah]our answer to eliminating the chances of people fighting over faith and religion as being the right one is to get rid of all of them so that there are no more arguments over the right one, ergo, you become guilty over your own explanations by saying "My non centric God belief has to be the right one because the only way to stop the violence is to get rid of god centric religion."  You are being hoisted by your own petard.[/quote]

"What  "

When you claim religion is narrow minded and then you act the same why in which you are accusing religion to be doing, you are hoisting yourself on your own petard. Meaning, you are committing the act in which you are blaming religion as doing.

"What is it that both Islam and Christianity as a whole wants ? To save us from 'ourselves'! You of all people should know this, you yourself are a convert..."

Each religion has their own dogma. If you don't like it you don't have to follow it. I find it interesting that I am a "convert." It implies that someone convinced me into believing something. No. I believe in what I believe and I respect what others believe in.

Every religion has an aspect of having one go above and beyond than what they assumed they are. If you don't like that, it's fine. I am not debating that. I am debating your views on certain religions.

[quote Annah]I am not angry.

2. I am writing to show you that your own philosophy in these matters are showing a sense of "I am right and you are wrong" when my position has been and always will be, one should have the right to worship in anything or have the right to worship in nothing. When someone starts saying, "My religion is right and yours is wrong" or "Atheism is right and religion is wrong" or "My religion is right and Atheism is wrong"; those statements sound exactly the same to me. It shows little respect for diversity.[/quote]

"I have respect for diversity but even as patient as I am[as a saint so I'm told ], I have little time for stupidity!"

If you find my beliefs stupid then that's your thing. What makes me different from you is the fact that I will never call your beliefs stupid.

"But I do detect some of this towards me because of how I see things... However, I express my opinions in order to help others think a little deeper about what they believe ! My personal beliefs are my personal beliefs and when I express them, people should see them as such...If they find them threatening in any way, that's an issue for them to sort out[with their god/s]..."

I do not find your opinions threatening. However, if you were to become a world leader, then I would find your beliefs extremely dangerous.

Theism and atheism are NOT and have NEVER been compatible, history highlights this truth !

This is untrue. The simple fact that we have atheists attend our seminary and the fact that some of my best friends who are atheists respect each others beliefs shows me that Theism and atheism is compatible. Only those who are insecure in their religious beliefs or atheist beliefs would say they cannot be compatible.

I've seen it first hand of them being compatible. Every day I see it.

And no matter how one tries, one can not bring these two opposing mind sets together in harmony- for any 'long period of time' that is!
Like two opposing thoughts can NOT occupy the same space at the same time within ones mind, this applies to the theist and atheist !

If you, with your views, and Pat Roberston, with his views, got to together for lunch then I would agree with you. However, as I stated, I have seen the two mindsets in harmony. I see it everyday. I see it in action.

It would be illogical to think otherwise! 'Faith verses logic and reason'... One as got to give way for the other ! Or be prepared to exists in a very 'diluted' form/state !

Again, this is a stereotype. I have seen it first hand that faith and logic/reason are intertwined in a harmonious balance. I see it everyday.

[Anatta]

  The issue remains that no one will be able to prove if man created religion or discovered it.

'Religion' is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, so it's more than likely it 'was' created

And yes, it is a matter of faith...just as you have faith that humankind created religion because you will never have the proof you need to know for sure if it was created.

What proof do I need Annah ? I have nothing to prove! "What can be asserted without proof can just as easily be dismissed without proof !"


My point still stands that a death is a death. I do not measure the value of killing because of how efficient it is. The fact of the matter is, people died.

Furthermore I never made any comparisons between bows and arrows and machine guns. I made the point that humankind's desire to harm and inflict pain is here regardless of religion and it matters not what instrument they use to carry it out. The act of killing is still the same.

I know you never made these comparisons[machine guns, bow, arrow and swords], I was just pointing out the fact you didn't take both the time of theses events and what killing devices were on hand, into account when coming up with the figures !

And likewise, many non believers (and yourself) makes suggestions that they should abandon their beliefs to make the world a better place. This to me, is no different than religious people doing it to non believers to make the world a better place....what I have been saying in the last five posts.

And as I stated earlier, religious related violence is not the only violence here on earth. People have killed in the name of God, people have killed in the name of territory, people have killed in the name of sex, people have killed in the name of Atheism. I do not look at one portion and then point my fingers and scream foul. I look at the whole picture.

Did I say it was ? I also look at the whole picture but not through 'theist eye'...What eyes  do you see things through Annah are they 'uncontaminated' ?


People who have in faith in whatever they believe in should not fear when another says something about their religion; however, people do act that way. Hence my points in the first two posts on this thread. Atrocities has been committed because of ignorance, fear and pride over religion. Then again, as my point continues, atheists has done the same exact thing as well as others under different convictions (such as territory, honor, money, etc)

Remove 'god' from the equation and there would be one less evil to worry about !

Again, you have been misinformed. Christian has been up and running since the earliest Roman manuscripts speaks of Christian as early as 90 CE. Furthermore, the religion was so stable that once the goths and other people sacked Rome on August 24, 410, the Christian churches and ecclesiastical standing remained unshaken despite the Roman Empire's infrastructure crumbling before their eyes.


It is not debate but a fact that the Christian religion was like a small candle giving hope to others during the Dark Ages when everything crumbled including roads, infrastructures, aqueducts, government, education, living conditions, etc.

Now I've heard it all, you are joking aren't you? You don't seriously believe this do you ? !  If you believe this you will believe anything !

The Church was never on shaky ground after the dissolution of the Roman Empire. They continued under the Holy Roman Empire and then the Orthodox Church in the East formed as a result of earlier councils.

The Christian Church was alive and well even before it became the Roman State Religion on February 27, 380 CE under Emperor Constantine.

I am not sure where you received information stating that Christianity took 2000 years to get it up and running but your information is in error.

Annah, give or take a few hundred years-no big deal [unless one chooses to make it a big deal]...But more to the point all that you quote in regards to dates and events are irrelevant...Info passed down, passing through many hands...No first hand accounts..Errors are possible... 

Again, attacking religions as being narrow minded is narrow minded. It is quite clear you hate the Abrahamic religions and I am not here to convince that you shouldn't hate them. If that is your thing then that is your thing, but I am also here to tell you, I have studied the Bible for over eight years in a post graduate environment and yes there is violence in the Bible and acts of aggression and narrow mindedness, but my whole entire point is: This exists in ALL forms of religion and non religion. Religion is not to blame, Abrahamic religions is not to blame, Atheism is not to blame. Humanity is to blame for narrow-mindedness occurs in every facet of human civilization.

'Hate' now I've heard it all [again], when bringing 'hate' into it, you are beginning to sound like the *guy' I had a confrontation with a few years back,[I'm hoping this is not the case though- because he started to go on about 'hell fire and damnation' and that I would burn in hell, amusing really, not only for myself but other readers of the paper] the debate went on for around half a dozen issues of the local paper... He started by accusing me of 'hating' god and 'despising' all Christians...How can I hate what does not exist[beside hate is not part of my make up] and why would I despise all Christians? It's funny how religious people bring hate into the equation[alarm bells go off force of habit I guess]....I might dislike 'stupidity' but I have no 'hatred' or fear of it, I more so have compassion toward those who suffer from it...    

When you claim religion is narrow minded and then you act the same why in which you are accusing religion to be doing, you are hoisting yourself on your own petard. Meaning, you are committing the act in which you are blaming religion as doing.

What do religions want Annah[I'm refer to the Abrahamic ones]  ? Do they want freedom of choice ? Do they strive for human rights[the right of all humans ]? Or do they want the whole world to believe just as they do ?

Each religion has their own dogma. If you don't like it you don't have to follow it. I find it interesting that I am a "convert." It implies that someone convinced me into believing something. No. I believe in what I believe and I respect what others believe in.

Were your parents religious ?

Every religion has an aspect of having one go above and beyond than what they assumed they are. If you don't like that, it's fine. I am not debating that. I am debating your views on certain religions.

I'm not sure what you mean by this Annah ?

If you find my beliefs stupid then that's your thing. What makes me different from you is the fact that I will never call your beliefs stupid.

I do not find your opinions threatening. However, if you were to become a world leader, then I would find your beliefs extremely dangerous.

Now 'that' I find interesting...Like yourself I tend to call it as I see it, for example you call me a 'hater' because you disagree with my opinions...

This is untrue. The simple fact that we have atheists attend our seminary and the fact that some of my best friends who are atheists respect each others beliefs shows me that Theism and atheism is compatible. Only those who are insecure in their religious beliefs or atheist beliefs would say they cannot be compatible.

I've seen it first hand of them being compatible. Every day I see it.

Are they all as compatible ? I mentioned before in order for co existence there has to be some form of dilution of one's faith[I'm talking about A R believers here] 


If you, with your views, and Pat Roberston, with his views, got to together for lunch then I would agree with you. However, as I stated, I have seen the two mindsets in harmony. I see it everyday. I see it in action.

Again, this is a stereotype. I have seen it first hand that faith and logic/reason are intertwined in a harmonious balance. I see it everyday.

Logic/reason dilutes faith and the more it's applied the weaker the faith becomes...

Sorry for the delay I'm watching Coro street on TV...

* I've just removed a 'term/word' that might have offended you when reading the sentence and replaced it with a more appropriate  word  'guy'...The term I originally used was 'nutjob' because this was the closest thing to describe this person's ranting,verbal attacks and accusations[which I might add started off with accusing me of 'hating']...He flew off the handle when I happened to say that not all Christian values were wholesome and should be adhered to...   

Metta Zenda

[Anatta]

Kia Ora Annah,

I think it's about time we called a 'truce' don't you ? A definition of insanity "Continuing to do the same thing over and over again each time hoping for a different outcome/result !" ... 

I have found your comments both interesting and informative[ and I'm not being sarcastic when I say this]...But we don't see eye to eye, we both have a point to prove and this could go on for ever...So I'll leave it to you to have the last say on the matter...I've said my piece re our discussion...Thank you and as I've said once before, I wish you well and I mean this...No hard feelings Annah...Remember they are just words...Nothing more nothing less !

"Sabbe Dhamma Nalam Abhinivesaya !" Annah...

Happy mindfulness 

Metta Zenda