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Why Does Your Faith Have To Be "The Right One"?

Started by Julie Marie, December 08, 2011, 09:11:39 AM

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Julie Marie

This is not directed an anyone here.  It was prompted by a movie I saw last night.  It included Pagans, Christians and Jews.  And there was a lot of fighting and killing over which faith was the only faith. 

We see this with other faiths too.  All these religions up in arms, often in direct confrontation with one another, fighting over who worships the right god, over which holy books should be followed, over who is the real savior.  It seems to me the epitome of insanity.

Why does it matter so much?  What is it about my faith that makes you so offended or fearful?  Why do you feel a need to pressure me into converting to your faith?  To challenge me?  To go to war with me?  To kill me?  Isn't it enough I wish to live in peace with you?  That I cause you no harm?  Why do I have to believe in the same god as you?  How does me having different beliefs harm you? 

I don't get it.  Can anyone here explain this?
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Sarah Louise

It matters because it IS that persons belief.  Typically when you believe in a "religious system" it has to be correct (and the only correct one) or your "faith" is no longer valid.

Does it mean you need to kill those who do not agree, No.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Annah

I personally believe it is a mixture of many different issues that has people believing this way:  you have insecurities, pride of your specific religion, an unwavering truth that you really believe your God is the only way, a scornful history with another religion that creates hostility, etc.

There are obviously more reasons and explanations of why people feel that their faith has to be the right one. There are also other people, while they do not believe their religion is the "right one," they will freely harass other religions. It happens all the time. As I mentioned in another post, I have seen Christians put down Pagans and I have seen Pagans put down Christians. I have seen Jews put down Muslims and I have seen Muslims put down Jews. I have seen Atheists put down people who believe in God and vice versa.  I think being in Seminary, I have seen it all.

It would be nice to see interfaith respect but I don't think they will happen anytime soon.
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Catherine Sarah

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry if I can't answer your question. Because your beliefs are your own and that doesn't matter, offend or make me fearful of you. I certainly do not want to convert you to my faith, it may be in direct contradiction to yours. My faith is an ongoing journey and I'm simply not in a position to challenge yours. I don't know it all.

As for going to war or wanting to kill you for yours. No thank you. I respect yours too much for that. After all; I may be wrong. I have been known to be wrong in the past. And I'm not prepared to accept the responsibility of leading you astray.

I'd love to live in peace with you, and hope I do. So far you haven't harmed me and you don't have to believe in the same God as me. Although He may be the same. I don't know. Your different beliefs don't harm me at all. In fact they may help me in my journey. You just never know. I've had people from other disciplines of engineering tell me things I didn't know that have helped me in my discipline of engineering.

I understand what you are saying. But wouldn't it be nice if we all respected each others opinion and went about living our own lives and not trying to live someone elses for them?  Arrr to dream!!

Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa huggs
Catherine




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Maya Zimmerman

I may be mistaken, but I think the majority of religious warfare has been conducted exclusively within the Abrahamic religions, which is especially hilarious considering they were all developed from one another.  By hilarious, I mean terrible and tragic, but that's how it goes, right?

As far as people insulting each others' religious views, it reminds me of the nonsense argument that can be found on the Wikipedia discussion page for the song Money by Pink Floyd.  A whole lot of people who don't begin to understand music kept yelling at each other and insulting each other, saying why they were right and other people were wrong, when real musicians would know instantaneously that the debate in question was completely irrelevant and nobody was right or wrong.  This debate has gone on for 6 years so far and despite clear statements about how music works from myself and another person, people still insist that they are "right" in the sections devoted to fighting.
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Annah

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 08, 2011, 02:29:23 PM
I may be mistaken, but I think the majority of religious warfare has been conducted exclusively within the Abrahamic religions, which is especially hilarious considering they were all developed from one another.  By hilarious, I mean terrible and tragic, but that's how it goes, right?

There were just as many wars waged by Pagan leaders as well.

Babylonian Empire, Assyrian Empires, the Egyptian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the fighting under a patron God or Goddess in the South America regions, etc etc.

So wars had not be committed exclusively within the Abrahamic religions. In the Middle ages and during the renaissance it was exclusive in Europe plus the current jihad issues in the Middle East. But other than that, throughout the world and ages it was not exclusively Abrahamic.

Almost every religion out there has been guilty for taking a life in some God(s)' name
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Pica Pica

I'd say that it's because faith is about revealed Truth - a central truth bestowed to humanity and so only one group can have that central truth.

Also, I'd say that most of those who fought 'for religion' were fought for personal and political reasons.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Maya Zimmerman

Annah - I'm not so sure about those empires' attempts to conquer being considered religious warfare, but I suppose that would probably level the historical playing field.  However, there's so much prehistoric time that various tribes with various Gods would almost certainly have comprised the vast majority of warfare.

As far as lives being taken in general, yeah, I think plenty of people have died through various peoples' interpretations of various holy texts. 

Regardless, let's not forget that war is an important social construct to gather those who would kill and face them off against those who would kill.  If you've got groups so full of bloodlust that they would do so with texts aimed at understanding spirituality as their motives, all the better to see them gone.
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Joelene9

#8
  Yes, Julie.  It is hard to find the right one faith to believe in.  I am a Christian, but the mainline denominations are either too rigid or their mission charters are too vague.  I am not talking about transgender inclusion.  Another is the change of the Sabbath to Sunday.  The main reason of that the sun worshipers used Sunday as their day and the change was to keep them from their places of worship on that day with the excuse of "Jesus arose on that day of the week".  Ironically, that's where we get the name for that day. 
  Joelene
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Anatta

Kia Ora Julie,

::) Why I don't give any 'god-centric' religion the time of day..."Every religion has a group of people who swear that what they preach is the truth and what everyone else preaches is false. Therefore, all religions cancel each other out !"

* However in saying this, I do respect the rights of a person to hold a belief in a god [just so long as it's a nice friendly, helpful god]... ;)

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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tekla

Just do what most people do and that's ask: Is my faith popular?  One of my favorite college proffs used to say: A cult is just an unpopular church, and a church is just a popular cult.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Annah

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 08, 2011, 04:08:22 PM
Annah - I'm not so sure about those empires' attempts to conquer being considered religious warfare, but I suppose that would probably level the historical playing field.  However, there's so much prehistoric time that various tribes with various Gods would almost certainly have comprised the vast majority of warfare.

Most of the empirical conquests in ancient civilizations had been motivated by their desire to spread their religion and their power to neighboring civilizations. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and Egyptians cultures highly regarded their faith as a driving force behind any attack. If the battle was won it was proof that their God had wanted it to be so and it was proof that their God was more powerful than the defeated nations' Gods. If they lost the war, then they saw it as a time of deep reflection and some type of wrong doing they had done to warrant the defeat.

QuoteAs far as lives being taken in general, yeah, I think plenty of people have died through various peoples' interpretations of various holy texts. 

Regardless, let's not forget that war is an important social construct to gather those who would kill and face them off against those who would kill.  If you've got groups so full of bloodlust that they would do so with texts aimed at understanding spirituality as their motives, all the better to see them gone.

It happens in every religion. With religion you can go three ways:

1. Piousness and charity (as many religious figures had "preached" such as Jesus, the Buddha, etc)
2. Complacency (they worship theirs and others worship their own where no interference occurs)
3. Warfare (as an attempt to spread their religion through forceful means)

It happens everywhere and not just the Abrahamic ones. I just wanted to point that out.
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tekla

If the battle was won it was proof that their God had wanted it to be so and it was proof that their God was more powerful than the defeated nations' Gods. If they lost the war, then they saw it as a time of deep reflection and some type of wrong doing they had done to warrant the defeat.

In one of the classic Greek tragedies a king had to sacrifice a virgin to insure a great military victory over their foes.  To make victory a sure thing he chose his daughter.  They lost and everyone blamed the gods for not favoring them.   I always figured that the more obvious answer was that he was mistaken about his daughter.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

I understand why someone would say theirs is the right religion for them, personally and individually.  But what I'm asking is why a person feels the need to convert another to their faith, pressure another into believing in their faith, cause physical harm to another who does not accept their faith, kill another who refuses to convert to their faith, or assemble with others of their faith and wage war on those of another faith just because the other faith won't convert to their faith?

Why is is so important someone else believes in the same religious tenets as you?  Why can't these people just accept each person has their own religious beliefs and leave it at that?
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Anatta

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 09, 2011, 03:06:12 PM


Why can't these people just accept each person has their own religious beliefs and leave it at that?

Kia Ora Julie,

::) Because they're mentally unbalanced nutjobs and I'm being serious when I say this....

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Jen61

Quote from: Annah on December 08, 2011, 03:35:34 PM
There were just as many wars waged by Pagan leaders as well.

Babylonian Empire, Assyrian Empires, the Egyptian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the fighting under a patron God or Goddess in the South America regions, etc etc.

So wars had not be committed exclusively within the Abrahamic religions. In the Middle ages and during the renaissance it was exclusive in Europe plus the current jihad issues in the Middle East. But other than that, throughout the world and ages it was not exclusively Abrahamic.

Almost every religion out there has been guilty for taking a life in some God(s)' name

I beg to disagree, all pre christians cultures and civilizations were very tolerant of other people religion. The war of antiquity were all about resoruces (money) not about religion. The Jews have never persecuted Christians or muslims. The religion wars have been waged by Christians against Christians, Muslims against Muslims, and Christians against Muslims. In Asia Hinduist have gotten in wars with both Christians and Muslims.

The point the JM makes is that mostly Christians have this so self-rightous postions, that they and they alone are the bearers of the truth, the basic command of their religion is to proselytize, it is a mandate conversions.  Jews do not proselytize.

I agree with you JM, I personally do not care who believes what, it is only when they are trying to "push" their beliefs that we have a problem.
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Annah

Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 06:16:25 PM
I beg to disagree, all pre christians cultures and civilizations were very tolerant of other people religion. The war of antiquity were all about resoruces (money) not about religion.

The ancient wars were not just about money. It was also fueled by religion and their desire for conquest was religious, cultural, and monetary reasons.

QuoteThe Jews have never persecuted Christians or muslims.

True, but their numbers were also small and their people were in diaspora. However, the Jews were just as guilty; do not mistake that. The Jews were responsible were countless acts of Genocide in many regions and the book of Joshua chronicles most of it. Even if the acts are not historically accurate, the fact that they added it into their holy books speaks volumes. And this isn't me being anti Semitic. I am Jew by blood. I know very well the horrors the Jews had done and the horrors that had befallen them.

Every religion has been responsible for acts of atrocity. Every single one. Even the Native Americans fought and killed men, women, and children in tribal conquests and the eating of their opponents hearts in order to gain their strengths and their soul was commonplace.

QuoteThe religion wars have been waged by Christians against Christians, Muslims against Muslims, and Christians against Muslims. In Asia Hinduist have gotten in wars with both Christians and Muslims.

Don't forget the Muslim conquest of Spain where their expansion was halted by Charles the Hammer.

QuoteThe point the JM makes is that mostly Christians have this so self-rightous postions, that they and they alone are the bearers of the truth, the basic command of their religion is to proselytize, it is a mandate conversions.  Jews do not proselytize.

True, Jews do not proselytize and neither do some other religions; however, when the Jews were a considerable force they never proselytize....they killed everyone...and the ones they did not kill they were shunned (the Samaritans being one example). You cannot dismiss the fact that all religions have been guilty of warfare and this is my point.

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Anatta

#17
Quote from: Annah on December 09, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
The ancient wars were not just about money. It was also fueled by religion and their desire for conquest was religious, cultural, and monetary reasons.

True, but their numbers were also small and their people were in diaspora. However, the Jews were just as guilty; do not mistake that. The Jews were responsible were countless acts of Genocide in many regions and the book of Joshua chronicles most of it. Even if the acts are not historically accurate, the fact that they added it into their holy books speaks volumes. And this isn't me being anti Semitic. I am Jew by blood. I know very well the horrors the Jews had done and the horrors that had befallen them.

Every religion has been responsible for acts of atrocity. Every single one. Even the Native Americans fought and killed men, women, and children in tribal conquests and the eating of their opponents hearts in order to gain their strengths and their soul was commonplace.

Don't forget the Muslim conquest of Spain where their expansion was halted by Charles the Hammer.

True, Jews do not proselytize and neither do some other religions; however, when the Jews were a considerable force they never proselytize....they killed everyone...and the ones they did not kill they were shunned (the Samaritans being one example). You cannot dismiss the fact that all religions have been guilty of warfare and this is my point.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) Do you mean in the name of religion or members of a religion ? There's a big difference, for example if you see Buddhism as a 'religion' like many in the West do, then the religion itself has NEVER been involved in any kind of atrocity... And if one refers to the second world war and the Japanese, again it was not the Buddhist religion that went to war- * The Japanese people went to war for the 'Emperor' whom many believed to be a living god ...Plus one must remember in Japan there are also followers of animist religions - Shinto comes to mind...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Cindy

JMO but religion and politics have been linked for ever and politicians have used religious belief to support their ambition. You may not motivate the average Joe or Jill to go to war about the price of whatever or access to trade routes but if you convince them that people are  blasphemous against their God belief well they go hell for leather. Propaganda isn't new.  Just the adverts change.

It is happening now.

Watch it

Cindy
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spacial

The awareness of higher spiritual plains seems to be innate in humans. This is evident because it affects every human culture and seems to have always done so. Moreover, inspite of the numerous instances where once powerful religious groups have been utterly discreditied, such as the Reformation, where the singular religious organisation soiled itself from the sale of indulgences, individuals and communities continue to pursue a spiritual quest.

One of the most significant of recent times seems to be the expanding aethist movement. Inspite of their claims, they are a religious movement in that they are based upon a system of belief and personal faith.

Most religions, possibly all, base their claims to preminance upon their predictions of general disaster, if they are ignored. Moreover, they all appear to be based upon a hierarchy, formal or otherwise, plus systems of confirmation, affirmation, identity and submission.

Islam for example, it is largely based upon their general manipulation of persecution as a tool of social management. Muslims are raised, from an early age, to see themselves as persecuted by an uncaring world. The creation and manipulation of the Palestine issue for example. It allows leaders to behave in almost any way they choose, as evident by the Saudis claiming that anyone who defies them is defying their god!

Christianity is a good example of a contrived religious group, A purely political creation, manipulated and sustained by catering to the fears eminating from the innate spiritual awareness that afflicts all humans, like a terminal disease. This is emphasised by the various schisms which have each created alternate power bases but continuing, essentialy the same message, acceptance of slavery. ie Nietzsche.

Religion exists for its own sake. It is and always will be, a political tool, to manipulate and cajole. Wars in the name of god. Payment for god.

As each new religion is established, only one thing is and will be certain. That those not submitting to the will, as expressed by the leaders, paying dues to the leaders, dividing themselves from all non-adherients will be opposed.

Hence, each religion is correct. In the same way that a boiled egg should be broken from the large side. (or is it the smaller?)
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