Being "alternative" in transition - does it help?

[Jay-Bird]

Just something I have been thinking about lately.
Wondering if anyone is in the same boat or has been there.
To paint the picture a bit, fortunately I work in a creative role and have done so forever, so I have never needed to wear a "man suit" or anything of the sort, like a shirt and tie or shiny black man suit shoes - ew and ya I do work in an office.
Come to think of it, I don't even own a tie..
Before I started hrt, I was convinced that being seen as "alternative" (I hate that term btw) would make transitioning at work easier for me. I guess in a way externally it has, no one blinks an eye when I turn up in eyeliner or have shaped eyebrows or even having noticeably disappearing facial hair cause of laser treatments. I mean I wear my girlfriends super skinny size 10 jeans with boots and nothing is ever said or no strange looks are given, well maybe I am just blind and they are all s->-bleeped-<-ing behind my back. Anyway, I am in no way trying to pass or even be seen as female at this point at all, and probably won't for at least a year maybe more, after FFS more than likely. No one at work has any idea that I am on hrt or that I am transgender in any way. The thing is, since starting hrt I am finding myself rather self conscious much more so than I ever use to be, its like I am afraid of how far I can push it. I'm afraid of being outed before I am ready or choose to do so. Its weird, cause often I just feel like one of the girls when we are yammering on and being silly, and then I will catch a glimpse of myself in a reflection and feel really awkward and not right. Don't get me wrong, I am thankful I can get away with what I do, I wouldn't know how to be any other way, but somehow its not helping or making things easier on me internally as I thought it would. I feel like I don't fit into either world right now, and its well kinda crap.


I realize this is a strange post, probably doesn't even make sense, but that's where I am at right now so I though I would share.

Miya

[Mahsa Tezani]

I was a kink twink previous to transition. I can't see myself doing that again, I want people to take me seriously...as an adult first. At 29, I can't afford to have excessive piercings, I cover up my tats, etc. I think being "alternative" brings more attention to yourself. Now I'm a bit of an indie type like Zooey Daeschanel mixed with normal fashionista type stuff. There are a million girls like me in SF. I am nothing unique, as I attempt to blend it to bait men. I am not interested in getting tattoo'd pierced types. I want a metro/hipster/yupster man.

But when I see people in the career field...Men with ponytails wearing metal tees or girls who look like goth 20 years warmed over. I do not take them seriously. Past your 20s, it becomes a costume. Something that should have been left behind in high school. Does it mean you can have elements of it? Nope. You can. Ska and punk grew up into rockabilly, queer fashions grew into McQueen and different textural fashions.

I think being alternative is good, but when it comes to getting a job. You better have a trust fund happy...Because the older you get, the less alternative you should present.

[Jay-Bird]

I was a kink twink previous to transition. I can't see myself doing that again, I want people to take me seriously...as an adult first. At 29, I can't afford to have excessive piercings, I cover up my tats, etc. I think being "alternative" brings more attention to yourself. Now I'm a bit of an indie type like Zooey Daeschanel mixed with normal fashionista type stuff. There are a million girls like me in SF. I am nothing unique, as I attempt to blend it to bait men. I am not interested in getting tattoo'd pierced types. I want a metro/hipster/yupster man.

But when I see people in the career field...Men with ponytails wearing metal tees or girls who look like goth 20 years warmed over. I do not take them seriously. Past your 20s, it becomes a costume. Something that should have been left behind in high school. Does it mean you can have elements of it? Nope. You can. Ska and punk grew up into rockabilly, queer fashions grew into McQueen and different textural fashions.

I think being alternative is good, but when it comes to getting a job. You better have a trust fund happy...Because the older you get, the less alternative you should present.

Sorry but I have to say I took your post with some offense, especially in a transgender forum where a large part of what we go through is being comfortable in the way we are viewed externally and the way we in which we present to the outside world, after all are we not trying to align how we feel internally with how we present externally? If you cover up your tats cause your ashamed of them, perhaps you should not have got them or thought more about them before ink went to skin, personally I would never cover them because I am proud of them, they tell a story of my life and days gone by. They took years to design and come up with, they are my own and not picked of a wall. Also I am not trying to bait anyone nor do I want to, and that is certainly not now or after transition going to influence my look or the way I present. Frankly if someone is so shallow as to base there criteria for a partner on looks then I don't want to even talk to them let alone go out with them. I used the tag alternative because its the common description that everyone knows, I don't consider myself alternative as such, hence me saying I hate the term. I wear what I have always worn, and what feels comfortable. I don't really conform to anything or any particular style or follow any particular person (celeb), I did that in my teens and 20's.  So far as job and career goes, I have never had a problem, and tbh if i walked into an interview wearing a suit and tie in my profession I would not get the job, that is fact - unless I am going for an ultra corporate design position which I would not. So far as people taking me seriously, well again I am well respected in what I do and how I look has never ever been an issue, if anything an interest to others. In any case - I think each to their own, different strokes - different folks, wear what works for you, its not about what others think, or at least it should not be. do you really want a world of celeb look alike clones - I do not and am happy that there is variation and difference amongst people.

Anyway this really isn't what my original post was about...

btw, ska and punk has nothing to do with rockabilly, sure there are crossovers today, but rockabilly was a 50's style of rock n roll, punk was a movement in the 70's. Perhaps your talking about current movements like Psychobilly which merge punk and rockabilly together.

M

[El]

Miya, Mahsa is notorious for calling em as she sees em. Try not to take anything she says too much to heart, she just doesnt have that part of her brain that worries people will get offended (which isnt always a bad thing i gotta say), at least you know that she means what she says!

I do have to agree with mahsa when she says that its often better to "blend" your alt-style with a proffesional look if you want to get ahead. Some companies are obviously more relaxed than others. Ive know quite a few girls with a hippy/dreadlock look that they have managed to blend with a proffesional look in order to progress in their 9 to 5s. That said i used to work for a very successful company that made flashing road signs and their policy was very relaxed and had people who came in in a suit and people who came in with ripped jeans and a band teeshirt working opposite each other. So there are ways to avoid or reduce the compromises.

How do you think your co-workers would react if you were to come out and start transitioning on the job? Because from what you posted it seems like quite a liberal company. Are you somewhere with anti-tg discrimination laws in place?

[Jay-Bird]

Its all good, I'm ok too
Its just not really where this thread was at all suppose to go, but meh' it's fine, at least it started a conversation, of sorts lol.
I do understand about the blending of styles too, I have to say though its totally fine for me, I work as a creative designer, and there are some that dress I guess more extreme in their own way then me, although I don't consider my look extreme at all, heh.
Creativity is encouraged in my workplace and part of that is being yourself, I've been in the industry for 10 years, and have climbed quite far and worked for heaps of different places, dress style has never been a thought or issue to me in any way.
So far as my co-workers reaction, hmmm, not sure, probably quite varied I guess. There will always be those who are ok and those who aren't, but i am ready for that when the time comes. In general on a whole my work place would be very accommodating, part of the reason I chose the new place I am working at was its a safe transition place. But I am sooooooo not ready, I feel so far away from even considering coming out at work. Not sure if there are anti discrimination laws, but I do know there are some very vocal and out folk in the GLB part of the community and in high up positions, so I'm sure that will help.

[El]

Do you mind me asking what is stopping you from transitioning? Dont worry if its too personal, a couple of years ago if youy asked me that same question it would have made me angry sad and confused all the same time!

[Rabbit]

Haha I am in the same type of thing... I am an artist living in LA and feel it has been giving me the freedom to do whatever I want in terms of expression.

I was really worried at first that any small change would be picked up instantly and everyone would know. So when i did my eyebrows one night pretty drastically, I was afraid that everyone would be looking at me strangely. I got a couple very subtle looks, but overall everyone shrugged it off.

The same was with everything I have been doing. Longer hair, nails, earrings, and even makeup (one of my guy friends saw my picture with makeup and didn't think anything of it... as he told me, he thought it was "just Dan being dan"). I have my facebook profile picture as the one here...and no one has any issues.

Overall, I am really greatful to be in a field and place that is accepting as I explore myself No one here has given me a negative reaction yet (not even strangers).

[Jay-Bird]

Do you mind me asking what is stopping you from transitioning? Dont worry if its too personal, a couple of years ago if youy asked me that same question it would have made me angry sad and confused all the same time!

Not too personal at all, I have only just started not long ago, as in only been on E for about 9 days now. Had AA's for bout 2 months too.
I guess I just don't feel at all ready or confident enough, I am miles away from passing at all so until I feel that I can then I'm not going to try and present.
I seriously am not even considering coming out at work for at least a year. I'm out to all my friends and gf which is all good, so far that's all been great. I guess I just need hrt and some ffs to feel confident enough to present as myself in public and work.

[El]

Confidence is key. Ive been full time for about 20 months now and im still not on HRT (which is killing my soul but enough about that) I think i pass more often than not as long as i dont speak and im vastly happier than i was before but of course you ahve to wait untill you feel ready to start presenting

What helped me a load was meeting a support group, have you been to one yet?

[Jay-Bird]

El, your absolutely right confidence is everything, and I definitely don't have that!
I just had a look at some of your previous posts to see some photos of you, you look great and totally pass, there is nothing that would indicate otherwise.
No hormones? wow, your gonna look awesome lucky you!
Your in your early 20's too I believe? that too is gonna work great in your favor.
I'm 10 years on you, so I don't have youth on my side any more these days, maybe that makes it more difficult, definitely makes it more difficult in my head, I remember in my early 20's I would go out often totally dressed as me, completely confident, not sure if I passed or not but then I didn't care then, for some reason that has changed these days. I need to see hrt make some changes, like I need my upper body to come down a bit, and my face to soften, plus I've only had 2 laser sessions, so stumble is still evident. So far as a support group goes, nope and I won't go either, at least not for a while. Don't feel confident for that yet either, to be honest with you I only am now starting to post more here cause its actually feeling real now, i was very quite before because i guess it just felt like I was too far away.

Rabbit - yay for us artist nuts happy to see there is more.
It does kinda help, I swear some of the outlandish things I have worn to work and no body even blinks makes me wonder sometimes.
But hey, that's kinda my point, we are suppose to live, have fun and be free, if i can make someone turn there head, think about something a lil different for even a second then that's great. hmm, coming from someone who is completely petrified and not confident of presenting as their true self seems like such a contradiction ---> see what I mean, think i must be broken..

[Jeneva]

Being alternative is not necessarily the work killer that people present it as either.  I will admit that I do telecommute most days, but I have many piercings and tattoos and it has not affected my career at all.  I am well above most average salaries for my job role/years of experience/degree level on surveys.  Most of my co-workers also have a few tattoos and anyone in a suit and tie here would stand out MUCH more than I did before transition. 

I will also say that the alternative crowd has accepted me with no questions asked.  When I came out to my tattoo shop, they actually tole me they understood how it felt to have others judge and they didn't do that for ANYONE.  Being alternative helps you learn to be yourself and ignore negative feedback.  I basically had little fear the first time I was out and about as my true self because I had already developed the confidence to be myself.

[Mahsa Tezani]

In any case - I think each to their own, different strokes - different folks, wear what works for you, its not about what others think, or at least it should not be. do you really want a world of celeb look alike clones - I do not and am happy that there is variation and difference amongst people.

Anyway this really isn't what my original post was about...

btw, ska and punk has nothing to do with rockabilly, sure there are crossovers today, but rockabilly was a 50's style of rock n roll, punk was a movement in the 70's. Perhaps your talking about current movements like Psychobilly which merge punk and rockabilly together.

M

Yeah, but in the ADULT world...you have to conform. Society has a hard enough time taking transgender women seriously. If you want a decent job, etc. I am a makeup artist and honest to god, being "alternative" is within the context of fashion. I just don't like seeing adults being 40 yr old goths...you can be "dark" and have elements of it. But dressing like you're going to a concert past 30? Seriously? You expect the people who hire us(Gen-x) to take that seriously?

Call me a sell out. I don't care as I laugh my way to the bank. Being an artist will only get you so far before you have to get a REAL JOB like the rest of us. That means putting away the childish goin to a concert look.

I've done art too...but there are a million "artists" out there. Unless you have the skills and experience to market yourself. It won't be a lifetime career.

[sictransitkira]

I'm a musician and have been in the indie/emo scene for the last 10 years or so, and several years back it was completely acceptable to wear girl's jeans (the hot topic kids are still doing it), I rather enjoyed that, along with the girl haircuts and the general bi-curious nature of being in a band, it definitely helped me cope with my gender issues. I've always had a pretty androgynous style anyway, tight jeans, slim fitting shirts, cardigans, and recently with tom's being hip I pretty much get to wear ballet flats without stirring up any odd looks. I feel like my girl style will be similar, somewhere between Zooey/Jenny Lewis/Sia. 

[Mahsa Tezani]

I'm a musician and have been in the indie/emo scene for the last 10 years or so, and several years back it was completely acceptable to wear girl's jeans (the hot topic kids are still doing it), I rather enjoyed that, along with the girl haircuts and the general bi-curious nature of being in a band, it definitely helped me cope with my gender issues. I've always had a pretty androgynous style anyway, tight jeans, slim fitting shirts, cardigans, and recently with tom's being hip I pretty much get to wear ballet flats without stirring up any odd looks. I feel like my girl style will be similar, somewhere between Zooey/Jenny Lewis/Sia.

I used to wear military tops and dress like a gay boy who went to Folsom too much.

When I dress "andro"... Like I wear button up blouses, riding boots, and tight jeans...I get more attention. I guess the female shines through more... But I can wear anything and people don't think "boy". I think people are blind LOL.

But Zooey is definitely an "alternative for the masses" look. The hairstyle, false eyelashes, etc are more timeless and feminine than "alt". I associate alt with rockers, punkers, or tattoos.

[Mahsa Tezani]

I guess as a boy I fall more into the "hispter" category.
Example:

You have a nice face and will probably look like an attractive girl in a few years. But hipsters are common "alt" people. The OP seems like a motorcycle/biker type. The type you'll never see in corporate positions.

[Jay-Bird]

You have a nice face and will probably look like an attractive girl in a few years. But hipsters are common "alt" people. The OP seems like a motorcycle/biker type. The type you'll never see in corporate positions.

Oh, Masha I don't know how many which ways I can spell it out to you..
I work in a CORPORATE job, have done so very SUCCESSFULLY for 10+ years, I'm a Creative Designer (Graphic). I have always looked different, most people I work with are individual in their own way. I am taken very SERIOUSLY and well respected as I said, frankly being an artist with and artistic background, looking different really helps as I am paid to be creative and inventive, come up with fresh new ideals, look outside of the conventional box, not regurgitate current trends and ideas that are flooding the market. No one would take me very seriously if I rocked up in a suit and tie, I'm not a banker or lawyer, although I do sit next to many suit wearing types all of whom I get along with great and we respect each others professions and positions. So I don't know how much more real world I can get for you truly. If you wanna look like some celeb hipster that is totally your prerogative, sorry I have no idea who she is and I really can't be bothered looking her up. I like clothes which are different and I intend very much when I go full time to keep wearing them, its part of who I am, just because I am transition does not mean I am going to start conforming to current fashion trends or look like every celeb wanna be, sorry but here in Australia that is considered kinda boring and very clonal, we tend to laugh at trash magazine celebs and their bad dress sense. Perhaps over there its different, you probably much more influenced by celeb styles and so forth, I don't know.

Biker, seriously? where are you getting that, cause I am wearing a head scarf and I'm dressed in black?
Don't know how many bikers I've seen with, eye liner, girls jewelry and skin tight jeans.

Here's a pic of punky type look which I think is absolutely stunning, I intend to go down that road, but not the hair as I have none and have to wear a wig, so it will be long and black. So far as head scarfs go, I have heaps all different colors and materials so I'll more than likely keep incorporating those too, with hair underneath like the other pic.

[michelle666]

btw, ska and punk has nothing to do with rockabilly, sure there are crossovers today, but rockabilly was a 50's style of rock n roll, punk was a movement in the 70's. Perhaps your talking about current movements like Psychobilly which merge punk and rockabilly together.

M

The way that I took her comment "Ska and punk grew up into rockabilly" wasn't that rockabilly was created out of ska and punk but a lot of punks/ska/skinhead types ended up being rockabilly people in the end. Rockabilly always seemed like where punks and skins go to retire. I go to the Rockabilly weekend in Vegas every year and it's funny to see all the dudes with greased up hair and "Skinhead" tattoos.

[Mahsa Tezani]

Oh, Masha I don't know how many which ways I can spell it out to you..
I work in a CORPORATE job, have done so very SUCCESSFULLY for 10+ years, I'm a Creative Designer (Graphic). I have always looked different, most people I work with are individual in their own way. I am taken very SERIOUSLY and well respected as I said, frankly being an artist with and artistic background, looking different really helps as I am paid to be creative and inventive, come up with fresh new ideals, look outside of the conventional box, not regurgitate current trends and ideas that are flooding the market. No one would take me very seriously if I rocked up in a suit and tie, I'm not a banker or lawyer, although I do sit next to many suit wearing types all of whom I get along with great and we respect each others professions and positions. So I don't know how much more real world I can get for you truly. If you wanna look like some celeb hipster that is totally your prerogative, sorry I have no idea who she is and I really can't be bothered looking her up. I like clothes which are different and I intend very much when I go full time to keep wearing them, its part of who I am, just because I am transition does not mean I am going to start conforming to current fashion trends or look like every celeb wanna be, sorry but here in Australia that is considered kinda boring and very clonal, we tend to laugh at trash magazine celebs and their bad dress sense. Perhaps over there its different, you probably much more influenced by celeb styles and so forth, I don't know.

Biker, seriously? where are you getting that, cause I am wearing a head scarf and I'm dressed in black?
Don't know how many bikers I've seen with, eye liner, girls jewelry and skin tight jeans.

Yes, I love celebrities, fashion, makeup. I am for attracting yuppy types, so it's best to dressed like that.

Art comes from within. Sorry, I'd rather look like a conformist yuppy housewife who says she's an artist than the age old cliche. You work in graphic design, so you can look however you want. But if you want a higher corporate position, you will need to conform. "dressing like an artist" seems like your clothes define you're art...they don't.

or burning man... whatever. You look like some adult punk/biker. I don't care for the emphasis on subtleties.

Btw. this is my art:

[stldrmgrl]

I don't think the OP ever suggested they were looking for career advancements; the point of the thread was coming out at work, though correct me if I am wrong.  In this respect, I can somewhat relate.  I'm not full-time as I do not pass nor do I wish to even attempt to at this time.  I am "riding the hormones", letting them do their thing, and in the meantime taking care of most the other goals in my transition (laser, hair growth, saving for FFS, voice, etc.)  In fact, I don't have any plans to go full-time until after FFS.  Currently, I dress andro and present as such as well.  I don't know the differences between "alternative" and "andro", but the principle seems to be the same (or their entirety for all I know).  I feel we are both similar in our transition plans in a more generalized sense.  However, the two areas we do not relate are, I am unemployed and even if I were outed at my job prior to going to full-time, I wouldn't mind so long as there were no negative career related ramifications.

To comment on the photos, just to be honest, that look does not present a feminine appearance in any way, unfortunately.  Though, as you stated you are not attempting to present female and the photos are you in guy mode, I trust this was more or less unnecessary for me to say.  But, nonetheless.

[sictransitkira]

You have a nice face and will probably look like an attractive girl in a few years. But hipsters are common "alt" people. The OP seems like a motorcycle/biker type. The type you'll never see in corporate positions.

Oh Mahsa your inflating my girl ego with all your compliments!
To me the OP has kind of a neo-goth/industrial vibe going, if I encountered her on the street (or one of the girls she posted later in the thread) I would get a KMFDM/NIN/Godflesh/Throbbing Gristle vibe, which is actually becoming embraced by the hipster community in some cities, and definitely in the steampunk movement. I dig it, but never really got the look. I just want to be a cute girl, and listen to lots of My Bloody Valentine and m83.