dating and when to tell.

[Eve of chaos]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered numerous times. but instead of searching old posts I want some personal advice.

anyway heres my sitch.

so lately i've been getting very lonely. living with another couple makes em realize how alone I am on the daily.
I wasnt having any luck meeting people (decent people anyway). so i decided to make a profile on a free dating website. I mean why not. I thought if anything it would be a good way to meet some girls who identify as lesbian so I can be around more and hopefully meet a nice girl who is into me.

I made a profile on a dating website before as male. I never once got msged and anyone I messaged never replied. it got me really depressed. so i was anxious to be doing this again. yet I seem to be way more popular as a girl, I cant keep up with all the msg's I get :3

so with that in mind I'm not really sure how to handle it all. I've never actually had to reject anyone i didnt like, and I'm far too nice not to message anyone back. theres one or two girls on there I like and would like to meet adn see if it goes anywhere. but talking to so many makes me feel weird.

so my first question is should I only try to pursue one at a time? I feel like thats right but at the same time not....and its always the girls I like the most that I feel arent as interested :/ I find myself hoping they at least give me a chance in person. so i feel i should do the same for anyone who asks me.

and part two.

I'm fairly sure one girl is going to ask me on a date. shes already flirted hxc. and she just asked me if I like movies. so now comes the dreaded. does she know I'm trans? do I need to tell her before she spends money on me? do i need to tell her at all untill I'm sure were going to date? or do i possibly go along with it and let my actual pass-ability decide? not being on HRT means i could have very well passed in my pics but have no chance in person.

I didnt think i'd personally have a hard time with this. so any advice or stories to shed some perspective would be appreciated. I'm starting to wonder if this was a good idea at all.

[Lily]

so with that in mind I'm not really sure how to handle it all. I've never actually had to reject anyone i didnt like, and I'm far too nice not to message anyone back. theres one or two girls on there I like and would like to meet adn see if it goes anywhere. but talking to so many makes me feel weird.

I'm exactly this way. It feels weird to talk to more than one person on those sites... it just feels wrong to me somehow. I've never had to reject anyone either, luckily for me, because I hate saying no to people. It just seems like the worst feeling in the world to have to reject or break up with someone.

I end up getting maybe 2 messages from girls a week, most of which I don't reply to. It's easier that way for me, to just not get involved at all with someone I find unsuitable.

so my first question is should I only try to pursue one at a time? I feel like thats right but at the same time not....and its always the girls I like the most that I feel arent as interested :/ I find myself hoping they at least give me a chance in person. so i feel i should do the same for anyone who asks me.

I always only pursue one at a time. I treat it as though it could become a real relationship, and so I always show the same level of respect I would have for a real partner.

If a girl isn't interested, she isn't the one for you. The key is to have patience. You'll find someone perfect for you in time, it just may take a wile. Being lonely is a terrible, soul crushing experience, but being with someone who isn't right for you is even worse.

I'm fairly sure one girl is going to ask me on a date. shes already flirted hxc. and she just asked me if I like movies. so now comes the dreaded. does she know I'm trans? do I need to tell her before she spends money on me? do i need to tell her at all untill I'm sure were going to date? or do i possibly go along with it and let my actual pass-ability decide? not being on HRT means i could have very well passed in my pics but have no chance in person.

How does your voice sound?

You look like you could pass provided your voice is good and you carry yourself well.

I always tell girls right away, but the situation is a lot different for me. When girls look at my pic they see a man, and I have to first inform them that I do not wish to be treated as one. If you can pass in public you can wait to tell if you wish, but if you feel you cannot pass you really should tell her before meeting her.

Is she bi or lesbian?

[Eve of chaos]

@Lily
heh i shouldve thought it through more. i was so excited to be the one taken on dates. and to eb the one getting pursued instead of the pursuer that i didn't take the time to consider what id do if I wasn't interested.
never had to deal with this, and I really have a hard time saying no to people.

i was taking the stance in my ind that I was just going to be friendly to everyone and let them make the moves. and I was only going to genuinely flirt or pursue one girl at a time. and view the others as potential friends.

its one of the ones I was just being friendly with that i think is going to ask me. so im not really sure how I feel about them. part of me wants to go on the date for the experience. but I'm also afraid of making things worse.

theres been a  few times where ive asked girls on dates and they accepted but had no intentions of it going anywhere serious. it hurt me. but how amny times it happened made me feel liek the weird one and taht wha they were doign is considered normal.

my passability? its really idk. i dont think my voice is good at all. but ive confused my friends a few times answering the phone. they get all weird then tell em alter they thought some girl i was with answered.
Theres two people I know who ive met only as female and Im fairly sure they dont suspect anytihng, but dfor all I know they do and are jsut being courteous. its really ahrd tot ell without outright asking thsoe people. and i dont want to jsut out myself if i dont have to

she lists herself as lesbian. so it could possibly be a dealbreaker for her. its my policy to tell anyone im dating if they ask. and to tell them no matter what before any physical contact is made. I dont want to "trick" anyone. more so I want to be hoenst with anyone I could possibly be with

hoenstly though i kind of want to test my passability with someone who will be checking me out. and someone wo i can tell the truth to at the end of the day adn see if they suspected. so another question woudl be is it wrong of me to go along with it becasue of that?

I mean nto saying I couldnt eb itno ehr at all. i never decide that before meeting someoen. but I dont really think im feeling it. I tihnk i jsut feel good becasue she really takes the male role and ive always wanted that.

theres also the possibility that its blaringly obvious I'm trans and not saying anytinhg for respect. which is cool ahha. jsut a possibility i suppose

[MsDazzler]

Why aren't you upfront about it in your profile? Let it be stated there and save yourself heartache and worry - you know people who have contacted you will obviously know and there is no need to do the big "reveal" or "->-bleeped-<- surprise", heh.

I have a profile on OkCupid and I am very upfront about it in my profile. And I always pop the question, "Are you experienced with trangsender women?" before I ever meet them off line

[Lily]

I have in my profile that I am gender variant and that I welcome any questions about it. You don't have to state right out that you're trans, you can drop hints and lead up to it more slowly. Always answer truthfully if asked though.

Being with a dominant woman is the most exciting thing to me too. If I felt I could pass I would be tempted to go without telling for sure, but I feel it can be disrespectful.

[Assoluta]

Personally I have found it to be less of a problem than I imagined it would be, even pre-op. When I was pre-op, there were a couple of times where I was reckless enough to get into bed with a guy without even telling him! I just kept everything hidden well... But when it came to actually telling a potential guy in two instances, in the end it became a non issue, but it was largely because I disclosed AFTER he got to know and like me, and not from the off. I wouldn't recommend telling straight away as it will shape his perception of you and possibly not allow him to get to know you in the way you would like. However, with anyone open minded and accepting enough, the general perception I seem to get is that it is merely a side issue as it relates to my past, and does not affect the way they feel about me, because they were interested in me as a person. For some, it may affect their perception throughout a relationship as they process what your past means, and for some, a woman who in the minds of some "used to be a man" may not be somebody they can see themselves with - but those aren't the sorts of people you'd want to be with in any case.
In short, trans status can be used as a good filter.

However, you don't have to feel sorry for your trans status or feel you are tricking anyone. I can appreciate that pre-op you may be conscious of somebody being shocked at the fact that you don't have the body they may expect but in my view, it is a matter of a potential partner being interested in you, being attracted to your soul, meaning your physical past or even present state is not something that everyone is entitled to know straight away. The more confident and happy you can be in being assured that somebody can be attracted to you as a person and that your transition is simply an element of you (or being confident and happy in being openly trans, but then "telling" wouldn't be such an issue, so I don't think this applies in this instance) the more you will convince people to like you and accept your trans status. I wouldn't worry about whether you 100% pass or not either, it should be purely about the interaction between you and your potential partner.

I compare the ideal attitude to dating to an amusing sketch by Eddie Izzard when he mentions shopping for women's clothes. He says that you can't go in and ask the shop clerk in a small apologetic voice "er...where erm... can I try on this....dress?" you have to walk up to him and say "I AM trying on this dress, now hurry up and show me the changing rooms!" (it's funnier when he tells it!). But in essence, the message is that you should not need to be apologetic about disclosing or self conscious, it is simply a matter to be disclosed at some time and your partner or potential partner should take it on board or leave. The more you act as if your being trans is something that ought to be accepted rather than being self conscious, the more they probably will actually accept you.

[envie]

@ Assolute

your post means a world to me now. I am meeting someone in person in an hour and have been breaking my head over as what and when to say.
I am  pre- op but very passable so he saw me as a woman.
I feel a lot more confident now. I usuall am confident especially when I ask someone out but this time it was a guy who tracked me down and it feels like a completely different game.
Besides in the past it has not worked out and this would be my first boyfriend ever if it works out.
Thanks again!

[MsDazzler]

Hmm, well, I guess everyone s different - I could not handle having that dark secret even past the first date....

Like you, Absoluta, I had my old wild days of picking up drunk guys at the bars (an dbeing drunk myself) then like, "oops, ->-bleeped-<- surprise".... I count myself to be very, very fortunate to not have been beaten up or assaulted after they found out. Especially with alcohol involved.

But I m done with that, and being trans is a part of who I am - I need to present that upfront.

Ironically, I also hate it when people introduce me as their "trans" friend, as I mentioned in another thread. heh

[Assoluta]

Hmm, well, I guess everyone s different - I could not handle having that dark secret even past the first date....

Like you, Absoluta, I had my old wild days of picking up drunk guys at the bars (an dbeing drunk myself) then like, "oops, ->-bleeped-<- surprise".... I count myself to be very, very fortunate to not have been beaten up or assaulted after they found out. Especially with alcohol involved.

But I m done with that, and being trans is a part of who I am - I need to present that upfront.

Ironically, I also hate it when people introduce me as their "trans" friend, as I mentioned in another thread. heh

In some of my cases too, alcohol was involved (not with me drunk though!) although on a couple of occasions I actually dated a couple of guys for a while but didn't have sex (well, I wasn't able to back then!)

I used to see it as a 'dark secret' as well, but after over five years transition, I've normalised my experience, and to me, I am me and that's it - it's not as if I've murdered, spent time in jail, or done anything else terrible. I feel like I've normalised it because I just feel like me now and sometimes it feels like I've always been this way and I haven't transitioned at all. I think it's just a case of the human mind suppressing the intensity of the trauma of transition and pre-transition life. Of course, some guys might have a horrible reaction, but in most cases I can size up in the first three or four meetings whether he'd likely to react at least reasonably and not flip out. Of course, I'd always tell in a public place, just in case.

[envie]

Well I am back home from my date.
I held off on telling about my trans status for as long as I could but then it just had to happen in my opinion as we were coming back to certain questions that I would have to dodge to answer. Actually I would have to lie or make up stuff and that simple wouldn't provide a base for meaningful conversation. I am a parent and he knew that so there is only so much I can do to avoid the questions of who is the other parent and such without making stuff up. Also I felt like if I am avoiding topics of parenthood, previous relationships etc. it would suggest that I have a problem with my trans status or that I am ashamed of it. So I took the previous advices and just stood my ground confidently and explained the situation without being dramatic or put too much importance to it.
He took the info just fine but as the conversation went on it became clear that he was presented with my physique that he didn't expect and that throw him off his path. He liked my personality and he like what he saw but he was trying to figure out if he can handle my genital situation even though he had an experience with a guy once and figured he is not gay.
I don't know if he'll call and he said in a non suggestive way that he really has to get clear with himself as he wouldn't want to "exploit" me just out of his curiosity. For me he seemed like it would be worth to try to get to know him better as he wasn't off putting in any way but of course it is way too early to tell. It wasn't a "love on first sight" for me either but I found myself really struggling with my pre-op status as he was pretty clear he wouldn't have an issue if I were post-op.

[Eve of chaos]

disclosing on my profile is something I'll never do. to me I want to be seen as a girl not a transsexual. if that makes sense? I dont mean that in a phobic way at all if its even possible to be phobic against myself.

basically I came up with my own solution. I dont feel comfortable going on a date with someone I met just online anyway. so if they ask Ill simply say id rather meet them in person and be asked on dates then if it goes well.
and if I am asked on a date and feel inclined to accept I will tel them then.

I want potential partners to know about me. but in my experiences I am treated different when someone knows I am trans. and I want to be treated like any other girl. and if I'm not going to be physical with someone theres really no need to tell.

now would I lie if they asked about it? no probably not because I have an extremely guilty conscious. if I were building a friendship and they asked yeah id tell the truth. but only if they asked.

as for strangers. I'll lie through my teeth to be seen as a girl.

[MsDazzler]

disclosing on my profile is something I'll never do. to me I want to be seen as a girl not a transsexual. if that makes sense? I dont mean that in a phobic way at all if its even possible to be phobic against myself.

basically I came up with my own solution. I dont feel comfortable going on a date with someone I met just online anyway. so if they ask Ill simply say id rather meet them in person and be asked on dates then if it goes well.
and if I am asked on a date and feel inclined to accept I will tel them then.

I want potential partners to know about me. but in my experiences I am treated different when someone knows I am trans. and I want to be treated like any other girl. and if I'm not going to be physical with someone theres really no need to tell.

now would I lie if they asked about it? no probably not because I have an extremely guilty conscious. if I were building a friendship and they asked yeah id tell the truth. but only if they asked.

as for strangers. I'll lie through my teeth to be seen as a girl.

Obviously, for everyday encounters, you do not need to disclose your trans status, heh.

But I am saying - for romantic pursuits, you cannot afford to hide your head in the sand like an ostrich! unless you are planning on going 100% stealth (which, BTW, is getting harder and harder in this Information Age and Internet)

I just think you are causing yourself needless worry and stress by not divulging your trans status upfront and going down that road "will s/he like me if s/he find out?"

It is foolish to pin your hopes on that a person will like you enough anyway when you reveal the "->-bleeped-<- surprise" eventually .

[Assoluta]

Obviously, for everyday encounters, you do not need to disclose your trans status, heh.

But I am saying - for romantic pursuits, you cannot afford to hide your head in the sand like an ostrich! unless you are planning on going 100% stealth (which, BTW, is getting harder and harder in this Information Age and Internet)

I just think you are causing yourself needless worry and stress by not divulging your trans status upfront and going down that road "will s/he like me if s/he find out?"

It is foolish to pin your hopes on that a person will like you enough anyway when you reveal the "->-bleeped-<- surprise" eventually .

I agree that a trans status should be disclosed, if only for the sake of being honest and open. However, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to do so straight away - with the ideal person it may turn out okay this way, but it may scupper opportunities for some as it may shape their perception of you as they get to know you, and will also affect how you act as you will be self conscious and questioning yourself - "what does he really think about me being trans?", which in turn will make your initial interactions more awkward. For me, the best course of action would be to get to know each other for a month or two and see if you enter the first phase of being really attracted to each other. At this point I would disclose, and he'll either not worry because he likes me so much or not contact me again.

[MsDazzler]

 

I agree that a trans status should be disclosed, if only for the sake of being honest and open. However, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to do so straight away - with the ideal person it may turn out okay this way, but it may scupper opportunities for some as it may shape their perception of you as they get to know you, and will also affect how you act as you will be self conscious and questioning yourself - "what does he really think about me being trans?", which in turn will make your initial interactions more awkward. For me, the best course of action would be to get to know each other for a month or two and see if you enter the first phase of being really attracted to each other. At this point I would disclose, and he'll either not worry because he likes me so much or not contact me again.

That is my point exactly - you will have wasted those 2 months or so "getting to know" him if he dumped you after your big reveal. And don't tell me that he would have not been worth keeping anyway if he would dump you over something like that. Come on, don't be naive - you wanted to keep him is which why you have been seeing him for 2 months (and worrying endlessly about what he thinks)

I don't wonder, "Does he like me because I am just transgender?" when someone contacts me on OkCupid. I wonder, "Does he has a hot bod? Lemme see pics!" lol.

I used to go through all that crap in my early dating life as a woman, and realized I was just wasting a lot of time/stress on that issue. If a man hit on me because I was transgender, so what? It is a part of me just as some men hit on me because I am Asian and it is a part of who I am.

So, ironically enough, the non-passable ones never have to face this dilemma, right? lol. Any man who got interested in them would obviously know/tell right off the bat and well... no "->-bleeped-<- surprise" there, heh

[Assoluta]

That is my point exactly - you will have wasted those 2 months or so "getting to know" him if he dumped you after your big reveal. And don't tell me that he would have not been worth keeping anyway if he would dump you over something like that. Come on, don't be naive - you wanted to keep him is which why you have been seeing him for 2 months (and worrying endlessly about what he thinks)

I don't wonder, "Does he like me because I am just transgender?" when someone contacts me on OkCupid. I wonder, "Does he has a hot bod? Lemme see pics!" lol.

I used to go through all that crap in my early dating life as a woman, and realized I was just wasting a lot of time/stress on that issue. If a man hit on me because I was transgender, so what? It is a part of me just as some men hit on me because I am Asian and it is a part of who I am.

So, ironically enough, the non-passable ones never have to face this dilemma, right? lol. Any man who got interested in them would obviously know/tell right off the bat and well... no "->-bleeped-<- surprise" there, heh

I don't think two months is an awful lot of time to invest in someone, and in my experience, most of the time, if a guy is into you, he'll most likely accept it anyway, but you say "on't tell me that he would have not been worth keeping anyway if he would dump you over something like that." but I truly believe that - if he can't accept it then my opinion of him would immediately drop and I'd leave him, unless he felt he could somehow come to terms with it eventually. I wouldn't be THAT emotionally invested in a guy after two months anyway - possibly infatuated, yes, but no more than that. When I reveal my trans status it tends to be quite a serious talk and I don't want anything that heavy early on in our interaction. Sometimes I might test the waters by mentioning TSism - a good example now would be "Did you see that My Transsexual Summer programme?"

But in any case, it's up to the individual and whatever approach works best for them is fair enough.

[MsDazzler]

I don't think two months is an awful lot of time to invest in someone, and in my experience, most of the time, if a guy is into you, he'll most likely accept it anyway, but you say "on't tell me that he would have not been worth keeping anyway if he would dump you over something like that." but I truly believe that - if he can't accept it then my opinion of him would immediately drop and I'd leave him, unless he felt he could somehow come to terms with it eventually. I wouldn't be THAT emotionally invested in a guy after two months anyway - possibly infatuated, yes, but no more than that. When I reveal my trans status it tends to be quite a serious talk and I don't want anything that heavy early on in our interaction. Sometimes I might test the waters by mentioning TSism - a good example now would be "Did you see that My Transsexual Summer programme?"

But in any case, it's up to the individual and whatever approach works best for them is fair enough.

Honey, by two months' time is probably the "we're dating" stage instead of the " we are just getting to know each other" stage, lol.

And you know they say, "Don't sleep until the third (or fifth) date", and if you have gone out on only one date in two months, the man is definitely busy juggling other dates, lol.

Look at what Eve is agonizing over - she writes long posts and even made a thread about it. I used to do that too but now my life is much lighter and happier because I am upfront about my trans status and don't agonize about it anymore.

Interesting - on the contrary to you, I find that I dont have that serious "trans" talk because it was not some built-up secret over time that had to be revealed at the "appropriate" time then it required seating each other down in a quiet and safe place then say, "Darling, I have something to tell you..." Of course that kind of statement prefacing the conversation plus the somber mood would turn it into a heavy, serious discussion.

Instead, I simply ask at the beginning, "Are you experienced with transgender women?" and that is it - he is still interested or lost interest then if he is still interested, then I get interested in seeing if he is a keeper.

Being upfront about being trans may shape the other person's perception about you - but IF he was worth keeping in the FIRST place, who cares about how being trans shaped his perpection? The important thing is that you are being wined and dined (and perhaps bedded) anyway! Lol

[Assoluta]

Honey, by two months' time is probably the "we're dating" stage instead of the " we are just getting to know each other" stage, lol.

And you know they say, "Don't sleep until the third (or fifth) date", and if you have gone out on only one date in two months, the man is definitely busy juggling other dates, lol.

Look at what Eve is agonizing over - she writes long posts and even made a thread about it. I used to do that too but now my life is much lighter and happier because I am upfront about my trans status and don't agonize about it anymore.

Interesting - on the contrary to you, I find that I dont have that serious "trans" talk because it was not some built-up secret over time that had to be revealed at the "appropriate" time then it required seating each other down in a quiet and safe place then say, "Darling, I have something to tell you..." Of course that kind of statement prefacing the conversation plus the somber mood would turn it into a heavy, serious discussion.

Instead, I simply ask at the beginning, "Are you experienced with transgender women?" and that is it - he is still interested or lost interest then if he is still interested, then I get interested in seeing if he is a keeper.

Being upfront about being trans may shape the other person's perception about you - but IF he was worth keeping in the FIRST place, who cares about how being trans shaped his perpection? The important thing is that you are being wined and dined (and perhaps bedded) anyway! Lol

Perhaps it's a culture difference - in Japan, two months dating is quite normal to still be getting to know one another and not actually "going out". I knew of one couple who were friends for a year before they were properly "dating". So most of the time when I'm meeting and getting to know somebody, we're not actually properly "dating", we're just getting to know each other. Of course, when it gets to the point that we're going to get close and start making out, then I would tell him, and for me that tends to be at the one or two month mark. There's no point me telling him if I don't even know if he's thinking of wanting to date me or not yet (and trust me, in Japan, this gets really ambiguous, even my Japanese female friends often have trouble understanding!). A guy can walk you home, invite you to his house and cook for you and it may not necessarily mean he's into you. I and other friends have experienced this and all before me even disclosing being trans!

In the end it's about what makes you comfortable, because if you're comfortable with the situation, then the best outcome would result. I would prefer to just interact without telling and be comfortable with that and then tell when things start to progress - if I told straight away I'd feel awkward because I'd be wondering how he would be perceiving me and whether he perhaps liked me but had doubts in his mind - after all, I would be telling somebody I did not know at all. But as it is with you, there are some people who think otherwise and if you feel better that way, then that is the best way for you. If anything one could try two different approaches on two different people and see how one goes with that. [/Sounding like the Queen]

[MsDazzler]

Perhaps it's a culture difference - in Japan, two months dating is quite normal to still be getting to know one another and not actually "going out". I knew of one couple who were friends for a year before they were properly "dating". So most of the time when I'm meeting and getting to know somebody, we're not actually properly "dating", we're just getting to know each other. Of course, when it gets to the point that we're going to get close and start making out, then I would tell him, and for me that tends to be at the one or two month mark.

god, you are making me feel like a total whore - you make out at the first month!!?

god, by the end of the first date, we are already making out - lol

I can see that we differ in how we approach our trans sides - and Eve has not chimed in about her own opinion, heh

[Assoluta]

god, you are making me feel like a total whore - you make out at the first month!!?

god, by the end of the first date, we are already making out - lol

I can see that we differ in how we approach our trans sides - and Eve has not chimed in about her own opinion, heh

For me it has been different with different guys - a couple of times it has become apparent that one guy liked me by the first time we met and we kissed around the fourth or fifth time we meet. However, there have been plenty of guys I have met one on one but I don't know whether I'd consider them dates - I've met  plenty of guys one on one to do something or go out for a meal together but 49% of the guys perhaps have some initial interest (it's hard to tell) but then it never progresses (even when I've tried to be encouraging!) and fizzles out, so there isn't really any reason to disclose because it's not even a case of us properly dating. The other 49% are merely physically attracted to me and just want to have fun and I get an overwhelming sense that they are not interested in me beyond that - if they're hot I might just have a bit of fun with them, and contact naturally fades over time so again, no need to really disclose, unless you were pre-op and considering sex. The remaining 2% of the ones are the ones that actually have an interest, sometimes this is apparent early on, sometimes it develops over time.

That's why my opinion comes from the instance of when you meet a guy and you become friends and get to know each other, but you aren't exactly dating properly yet - why disclose when you don't even know how he feels about you, or aren't sure that he'll just disappear off the face of the earth? (I've had THAT one plenty of times!) However, if you know he's really into you, then it's probably best to disclose. If that's on the first meeting, then so be it, but for me, it tends not to be that way.

[Rabbit]

Perhaps it's a culture difference - in Japan, two months dating is quite normal to still be getting to know one another and not actually "going out".

I don't understand all the semantic games (even here in the US)...

If I go on a date with someone... we are dating. If I see him once, we are seeing eachother.

Sure, it is "we just started dating" and "we just started seeing eachother last week"... but... I don't get the entire "it isn't until date 3 and you kiss in the back of the car and he rubs your leg under moonlight that you are really seeing eachother!!" stuff ><


Oh, and when to tell? I tell before going on a date with them (if they didn't already know). I am VERY upfront with how I am... they can take it or leave it. Actually, if they don't know, I tell them when they start to hit on me (in a confident way, like "haha, ohh, I'm not really sure I'm your type " and then when they ask what I mean, I go "well... I'm a ->-bleeped-<- ~surprise!!~")