ending the "MTF have it harder" once and for all.

[espo]

I have a feeling that whatever you are, is whats the hardest, regardless of what you are.... or who you are.

[caseyyy]

I understand the pressure of being male, or being perceived as male...when people saw me as a girl they saw me as this total ball-breaker, but now, when I tell people I'm transitioning, they see me as too weak and uncertain. And the lack of human connection thing...it comforts me too, somehow. I think because I don't get a lot of it as I am now. So to know that a lot of people who are perceived as strong, capable, and dependable are lonely too makes me feel better. But now I feel bad for taking pleasure in other's loneliness.

[Felix]

Felix, I feel so sad because you want to enter the hell that I am running from. I wish I could help but I know that the only answer is to let you go to the place that I can no longer stay in. I really, really hope that it works out better for you than it ever did for me.

Beverly, I think part of the issue is that I've spent so much time not being allowed to show weakness anyway, and I've always been the protector, the provider, the fixer. I'm rarely close to anyone for very long, if at all. I never liked the female things I had access to, and I never had access to the things you are running to.

As a man (acting the same as always for me) I'm softer, weaker, sillier than I was as a woman. I get respect when I speak, and the lack of connection is so much less confusing. The subtleties of female interaction were a constant whirlwind.

[Bishounen]

You know Gina, I know the beatings and murders happen more to MtF than FtM people, but anecdotally I don't see that. My own experience is hard for me to not get tunnel-visioned by. I've been beaten more than once for acting like a homo or dressing in a way that was disrespectful to god or whatever people felt they saw wrong with me. In 6th grade I got threatened and in trouble after I supposedly was scoping out a naked person in the girl's locker room. They just assumed I liked girls because I acted like a boy. It felt like a witch hunt.

And Beverly, I agree with everything you say there, but 2nd and 3rd world countries aren't drowning any boy babies. I am learning that there is enormous pressure being male, and far less human connection. But to me that feels good and makes sense, idk why.

Regarding the noting of drowning of female babies as proof of female oppression, then the very same argument could be done about males, too, as nowhere like in the West World, does males getting attacked, violated and killed only because they are males, as males, are the gender that Statistically and by far, is the most exposed for violence, not to mention that 90% of all civil losses in War are accounted by male soldiers- Male Soldiers that, as we know, is put there whether they want it or not. Or, "Canonfodder" as they are also referred to as.

Someone that perhaps disagrees with this reasoning may point out that; "But the majority of the violaters/killers/Attackers are males themselves", which, however, is irrelevant, as it is not males as a uniform group that stands for violence against people, but individuals of whom this or that percent are of Male Sex, which is a significant difference.

[Felix]

as males, are the gender that Statistically and by far, is the most exposed for violence

What? We track soldier deaths, but there are far fewer soldiers in the world than there are wives and children. In many parts of the world and for most of history, men do and have done whatever they want to these people.

Do you have these statistics you speak of with a capital letter?

[Kelly J. P.]

 I think the voice is probably the biggest deal. MTFs often have to retrain their voices, which can be very difficult, while an FTM will mostly acquire their voice with testosterone. Voice is quite a big deal; if Zelda starts sounding like Ganondorf, the audience assumes that she's possessed by him. Maybe it's human nature, maybe it's Hollywood, but the voice defines the soul in today's culture.

[Mister]

You know Gina, I know the beatings and murders happen more to MtF than FtM people, but anecdotally I don't see that.

Statistically it's proven and justifiable once you consider the statistical differences between FTMs and MTFs---   As a whole MTFs are more likely to experience a sexist view of transphobia, a more employment & housing discrimination (in SF >40% unemployment, higher for transwomen of color), thus be forced into sex work (greater than 55% in SF), have HIV/AIDS (nearly 45% in SF, not counting those untested or not reporting), become more desperate, put themselves into riskier and riskier situations, etc.

This happens and is very, very real.  Most people think San Francisco is some fabulous trans haven, but it's also a very real nightmare.  Just because we're lucky enough to have laws that say that people can't refuse to hire you and will get stiffer penalties for raping and beating your head open with a baseball bat (one image that will never leave my mind) doesn't mean it's less likely to happen.  One neighborhood in SF with a population of 25,000 has the highest concentration of transgender murders on the planet, 96% of which are MTF.  Since moving here about six years ago, I've befriended 4 women who were murdered and been acquainted with several more. 

[Bishounen]

What? We track soldier deaths, but there are far fewer soldiers in the world than there are wives and children.

Globally, yes, but technically not if speaking about a general War Zone, where there will be far more soldiers fighting against each other than non-soldiers, as, In fact, the majority of Civilians are traditionally either transported, or, flees, whilst the Soldiers are left fighting against each other sides, as Wars are foremostly fought by the rivalling sides fighting against each other, not against the Civilians and especially not females and children.
Yes, there have been lots of horrible acts done in both ancient aswell as Modern times against civilans during war, but those acts have foremostly been done by rouge Soldiers and leaders and not as a part of the War-orders.

The fact that there are more women and children in the World than Soldiers, doesn't say anything, really, as it is two completely different groups; Óne is a Gender, the other is an occupation that the person have to do whether he wants to or not.

In many parts of the world and for most of history, men do and have done whatever they want to these people.

Again, it is not Men as a uniformed group that have accounted for anything any less than Homosexual people are the cause of HIV, as Anti-gay acitvists wants to make it.
To say that Men as a group is responsible for this and that throughout history, is like saying that all Muslims are terrorists for the reason that all terror bombers have been Muslims, although, in reality, the amount of terror bombers makes up less than 1% of Muslims, which only proves that Muslims are no more uniform and syncronised mass than Males are.

Do you have these statistics you speak of with a capital letter?

Some numbers:
Caussualkities in WAR: [Dept. Defense -- Vietnam Casualties 47,369 men vs 74 women]

WORKPLACE FATALITIES: Men account for more than 95% of workplace fatalities.

MURDER: Men are murdered at a rate almost 5 times that of women [Dept. Health & Human Services -- 26,710 men vs 5,700 women]

And, some statistics about assault outside of War;  The following text is unfortunately in Swedish, but in English it says that;

Women over the age of 18 is foremostly exposed to violence by someone they know and inside, while men over the age of 18 in higher degree runs the risk of being assaulted outside and by someone unknown. In 2008, there were 25 816 cases of assault on females over the age of 18 and older, of those, 18 975 of the  the victim was familiar with the assaulter.
Of the complaints regarding violence against men of the age of 18 or older, 13 640 cases of 41 375 cases the victim was familiar with the assaulter.

And, regarding violence against males by people they know, here is some revealing statistics about that:

(Research from the 70's until now)http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm



This bibliography examines 282 scholarly investigations: 218 empirical studies and 64 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 369,800.


Amendt, G. (2008). I didn't divorce my kids!: How fathers deal with family break-ups. Campus Verlag Publishers. (In Chapter 5 author presents data from an internet survey of 3600 divorced German fathers. Results reveal that 1/3 of men reported episodes of physical violence during the divorce process and 2/3 of these were initiated by ex-partners.)

Adult males Germany

Anderson, K. L. (2002). Perpetrator or victim? Relationships between intimate partner violence and well-being. Journal of Marriage and Family, 64, 851-863. (Data consisted of 7,395 married and cohabiting heterosexual couples drawn from wave 1 of the National Survey of Families and Households <NSFH-1>. In terms of measures: subjects were asked "how many arguments during the past year resulted in 'you hitting, shoving or throwing things at a partner.' They were also asked how many arguments ended with their partner, 'hitting, shoving or throwing things at you.'" Author reports that, "victimization rates are slightly higher among men than women <9% vs 7%> and in cases that involve perpetration by only one partner, more women than men were identified as perpetrators <2% vs 1%>.")

Married couples USA

Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987). Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)

Universitt Students Canada

Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983). Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships. Family Relations, 32, 283-286. (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence. Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)

University Students USA

Mwamwenda, T. S. (1998). Reports of husband battering from an undergraduate sample in Umtata. Psychological Reports, 82, 517-518. (Surveyed a sample of 138 female and 81 male college students in Transkei, South Africa, regarding their witnessing husbanding battery. Responses reveal that 2% of subjects saw their mother beat their father, 18% saw or heard female relatives beating their husbands, and 26% saw or heard female neighbors beating their husbands.)

South Africa Adult Females

Nisonoff, L. & Bitman, I. (1979). Spouse abuse: Incidence and relationship to selected demographic variables. Victimology, 4, 131-140. (In a sample of 297 telephone survey respondents <112 men, 185 women> found that 15.5% of men and 11.3% of women report having hit their spouse, while 18.6% of men and 12.7% of women report having been hit by their spouse.)

Adults 1979

Jankey, O., Prospero, M., & Fawson, P. (2011). Mutually violent attitudes: effects on intimate partner violence and mental health symptoms among couples in Botswana, Africa. Journal of Aggression, Conflict and Peace Research, 3, (1) 4-11. (A sample of 562 university students in Botswana <71% female> completed the CTS2. No significant differences between men and women were found with regard to physical perpetration of partner violence.)

Botswana 2011

Moxon, S. (2011). Beyond staged retreat behind virtual 'gender paradigm' barricades: the rise and fall of the misrepresentation of partner-violence, and its eclipse by an understanding of mate-guarding. Journal of Aggression, Conflict and Peace Research, 3, 45-56. (Author offers an original analysis of findings in the area of partner violence. Suggests that gender-symmetries in intimate partner violence can best be understood from an evolutionary psychological perspective. In particular, "the greater need for women than for men to maintain the integrity of the pair bond" is offered as an explanation to account for the finding that women are as physically aggressive or more aggressive as men in their relationship with spouses or male partners.)

England 2011 Adults

Munoz-Rivas, M. J., Grana, J. L., O'Leary, K. D., & Gonzalez, M. P. (2007). Aggression in adolescent dating relationships: prevalence, justification, and health consequences. Journal of Adolescent Health, 40, 298-304. (A sample of 2416 high school students <1416 women, 1000 men> from 20 different schools in Madrid, Spain completed a modified CTS. Results reveal that significantly more women, 41.9% compared to 31.7% of men, admitted to perpetrating some form of physical aggression toward their dating partners. Women were significantly more likely to hit or kick <13.4% vs 5.3%>, slap <12.4% vs 3.1%> and shove or grab <22.5% vs 11.9%> than men.)

Spain 2007 Teens

Fergusson, D. M., Horwood, L. J., & Ridder, E. M. (2005). Partner violence and mental health outcomes in a New Zealand birth cohort. Journal of Marriage and Family, 67, 1103-1119. (Examined extent of domestic violence experience and perpetration in a sample of 828 <437 women, 391 men> young adults who were 25 years old. Subjects were part of a long term longitudinal study and were administered the CTS2. Results reveal that "there were more men exposed to severe domestic violence than women" and that mild and moderate rates were similar for men and women. Overall, 39.4% of women and 30.9% of men reported perpetration scores of 3 or higher. Authors report that men and women reported similar rates of injury <3.9% for women vs. 3.3% for men>. In terms of initiation of partner assaults, 34% of women and 12% of men reported initiating physical assaults.)

New Zealand 2005 25-year olds

Magdol, L., Moffitt, T. E., Caspi, A., ->-bleeped-<-an, J., Newman, D. L., & Silva, P. A. (1997). Gender differences in partner violence in a birth cohort of 21 year Olds: bridging the gap between clinical and epidemiological approaches. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 65, 68-78. (Used CTS with a sample of 861 21 year Olds <436 men, 425 women> in New Zealand. Physical violence perpetration was reported during the previous 12 months by 37.2% of women and 21.8% of men, with severe violence perpetration by women at 18.6% and men at 5.7%.)

New Zealand 1997 21-Year olds

Stets, J. E. & Henderson, D. A. (1991). Contextual factors surrounding conflict resolution while dating: results from a national study. Family Relations, 40, 29-40. (Drawn from a random national telephone survey, daters <n=277; men=149, women=128> between the ages of 18 and 30, who were single, never married and in a relationship during the past year which lasted at least two months with at least six dates were examined with the Conflict Tactics Scale. Findings reveal that over 30% of subjects used physical aggression in their relationships, with 22% of the men and 40% of the women reported using some form of physical aggression. Women were "6 times more likely than men to use severe aggression <19.2% vs. 3.4%>...Men were twice as likely as women to report receiving severe aggression <15.7% vs. 8%>." Also found that younger subjects and those of lower socioeconomic status <SES> were more likely to use physical aggression.)

18-30 Year olds 1991

Felson, R. B., & Outlaw, M. (2007). The control motive and marital violence. Violence and Victims, 22, 387-407. (Study based on an analysis of data obtained through the National Violence Against Women Survey <see Tjaden & Thoennes, 2000>. Authors looked at 10,000 respondents out of 16,000 total sample who were currently married. Results reveal that adult women are just as controlling and jealous toward their male partners as the other way around. Also report that, "While controlling spouses in current marriages are more likely to act violently there is no evidence that this relationship is gendered.")

Married Adults 2007

Russell, R. J. H., & Hulson, B. (1992). Physical and psychological abuse of heterosexual partners. Personality and Individual Differences, 13, 457-473. (In a pilot study in Great Britain 46 couples responded to the Conflict Tactics Scale. Results reveal that husband to wife violence was: Overall violence= 25% and severe violence= 5.8%; while wife to husband violence was: Overall violence= 25% and severe violence=11.3%.)

Married Adults Great Britain 1992

Brinkerhoff, M., & Lupri, E. (1988). Interspousal violence. Canadian Journal of Sociology, 13, 407-434. (Examined Interspousal violence in a representative sample of 562 couples in Calgary, Canada. Used Conflict Tactics Scale and found twice as much wife-to-husband as husband-to-wife severe violence <10.7% vs 4.8%>. The overall violence rate for husbands was 10.3% while the overall violence rate for wives was 13.2%. Violence was significantly higher in younger and childless couples. Results suggest that male violence decreased with higher educational attainment, while female violence increased.)

[Felix]

Statistically it's proven and justifiable once you consider the statistical differences between FTMs and MTFs---   As a whole MTFs are more likely to experience a sexist view of transphobia, a more employment & housing discrimination (in SF >40% unemployment, higher for transwomen of color), thus be forced into sex work (greater than 55% in SF), have HIV/AIDS (nearly 45% in SF, not counting those untested or not reporting), become more desperate, put themselves into riskier and riskier situations, etc.

This happens and is very, very real.  Most people think San Francisco is some fabulous trans haven, but it's also a very real nightmare.  Just because we're lucky enough to have laws that say that people can't refuse to hire you and will get stiffer penalties for raping and beating your head open with a baseball bat (one image that will never leave my mind) doesn't mean it's less likely to happen.  One neighborhood in SF with a population of 25,000 has the highest concentration of transgender murders on the planet, 96% of which are MTF.  Since moving here about six years ago, I've befriended 4 women who were murdered and been acquainted with several more.

Hey, don't take what I said out of context. Notice I used the words "anecdotally" and "tunnel-vision." My experience was atypical, and I didn't use it as a denial of statistics. I did have an mtf friend who was murdered in the nineties, and I have huge respect for data, but I think we can all agree that our own experiences loom largest.

[Felix]

And Bishounen, that's a nice list, but I still disagree. It's not worth bothering about though. We aren't ever going to come up with an answer to this that someone can't argue with, and it really doesn't matter very much.

[insideontheoutside]

All I have to say is I disagree that ftm's have an easier time passing before any medical transition. Maybe when you're a kid (and I consider a kid anyone under 18) because young boys don't grow beards, have big muscles and board shoulders, etc. etc. Secondary sex characteristics haven't set in so a younger ftm can pass as a young boy for quite some time. As an adult though? Good luck with that. I don't think the "default" social gender is male either. I've actually been doing a year long personal experiment now on how many times other adults in public clock me as male or female or don't use any reference (as in, they're not sure and they don't want to say). The vast majority read me as female. Why is that? Honestly for me I think it comes down to 3 factors: I'm only 5'3", I have "styled" hair that's got a little bit of length to it, and I can't grow a noticeable beard. 4 if I have to do any talking because I don't have a crazy deep voice. If I had to give an actual statistic, I would say 6 out of every 10 times someone refers to me with a female pronoun rather than male (and at least 2 of those times they don't use any gender reference). I can be totally dressed in obvious male clothing, my hair could be a mess, and I have never had very feminine mannerisms, yet the majority of people will still say female. I bought this up to an older friend of mine once and his take on it was that people error on the female side when they can't instantly determine gender because it might be more "generally accepted" that it's more offensive to call a women a man. I hadn't thought about it from that angle before. But I have actually corrected people, on occasion and if I feel up to it, and tell them I'm really male. They usually just get a little embarrassed and go, "Oh I'm sorry". Now if I have to show my ID somewhere, then things really get fun (still have an "F" on there and never bothered with changing my name). This year I went into the DMV and the guy at the counter referred to me as male. When he got a look at my ID he practically fell over himself trying to apologize to me. It was seriously like 10 or more times more apologizing than the other way around, so I think my friend's take on it might hold some weight. Any mtf's out there that can back up that opinion?

[Kahlan Amnell]

this is an impossible thing to generalize on, period. I believe that MTF's can easily stir the homophobia and misogyny that exists in males, and thereby causing suspicion easily around gender cues. On the other side of the fence FTM's do not have those things to face in the psyche of men or women. This is a pretty general point and I know that misandry and phobias surrounding transmen may exist but it is obvious they are in a much smaller degree. 'Passing' as it were, is something that is almost like an allowance by those who encounter a transgender / transexual being. The first 'exciter' that is likely to come up is a threat. From that perspective, FTM don't pose a threat to the gender identity of those they encounter as much as a MTF.

I'm not trying to make a grand bold statement here, but just wanted to include the essence of gender identity psychology rather than just strictly personal physical challenges, and also what  psychic challenges may be faced by either side as they arouse gender 'suspicions' in those they encounter. From that perspective I believe there is definitely a quantifiable difference in the degree of difficulty making the transition. That having been said, in order to actually quantify that difference one would obvs have to collect data and do proper research.

[Bishounen]

this is an impossible thing to generalize on, period. I believe that MTF's can easily stir the homophobia and misogyny that exists in males, and thereby causing suspicion easily around gender cues. On the other side of the fence FTM's do not have those things to face in the psyche of men or women. This is a pretty general point and I know that misandry and phobias surrounding transmen may exist but it is obvious they are in a much smaller degree. 'Passing' as it were, is something that is almost like an allowance by those who encounter a transgender / transexual being. The first 'exciter' that is likely to come up is a threat. From that perspective, FTM don't pose a threat to the gender identity of those they encounter as much as a MTF.

I'm not trying to make a grand bold statement here, but just wanted to include the essence of gender identity psychology rather than just strictly personal physical challenges, and also what  psychic challenges may be faced by either side as they arouse gender 'suspicions' in those they encounter. From that perspective I believe there is definitely a quantifiable difference in the degree of difficulty making the transition. That having been said, in order to actually quantify that difference one would obvs have to collect data and do proper research.

Is it really, though, or are you forming the opinion foremostly from those that are Stealth, living sucessfully in their Gender and are not in the open?
I can tell you that discrimination towards transmen are atleast as common as discrimination towards transwomen.
For instance, a transman by the name of Robert Eeds, that learned that he suffered from Ovarian Cancer, was refused by two dozen(Yes, two dozen) clinics for treatment, only because he was a Transman. When he finally found someone willing to treat him, the Cancer had already spread to such an extent that it was untreatable and he was already dieing.

The Transman Buck Angel have also had similar experiences where he was refused gynechological check-ups only because of his status.

Transmen that are open participaters in media, may, however, be the ones that are also the ones faced with the most amount of discrimination, even more so than the MTF's that figures in Media, or perhaps rather; Not necessarily a larger degree of discrimination, but often a somewhat rougher degree of discrimination.
For instance, the forementioned open FTM Buck Angel and another named Lando, have had several deaththreats posted in the commentsections on Youtube, something not uncommon at all for them. Ofcourse, there are however more people supporting them than those threatening them, but facts remains that they have and do experience a good share of discrimination.


In short, there are no evidence at all that T-men are less discriminated than MTF's, in fact, they are atleast just as discriminated, only differently.

However, neither the discrimination towards MTF's or the discrimination towards FTM's generally have to do with Misandry or Misogyny, however, and no matter how ironic it may sound, it is rather the lack of it that is the very reason for the discrimination, as, for instance, the person that disrespects an MTF does not do so because he/she views the MTF as a woman, but because he/she views the MTF as a man. Hence, it does not fill the criteria for Misogyny as Misogyny demands that the discriminator discriminates because of the female sex of the other, not the Gender identity.

The same is the case with FTM's aswell; It is not true Misandry, as the discriminators usually do not discriminates the person because s/he views the person as a man, but because of Transphobia, or, Homophobia(Even if the subject for the discrimination may not even be homosexual).

[Kahlan Amnell]

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny

[RhinoP]

I think both are exactly equal, and if anything, MTF is tougher during transition and body image, and peer social discrimination (lack of dating, bullying and jokes from peers, employment problems) - male puberty creates absolutely irreversible height problems, and that is about the only issue in our world that cannot be surgically changed. Male hormones also create "brutal" facial features that cannot be by any realistic extent feminine. They also cause voice depening, body hair, and balding, oily skin, and acne all which require surgery and treatments. Finally, many require boob jobs. For the gals, many female traits "suddenly turn manly" only weeks into HRT. The voice magically depens, hair magically sprouts out, a male hairline magically appears, body fat magically degrades, and some even get much taller - for the FTM's who don't change much, today's society actually values the cute, boyish men (Justin Bieber) over the haggard, viking looking guys, so most FTM's aren't loosing out on anything socially. About the only thing they usually have to do surgically is breast removal, and many gals already have flat chests.

It's more that there are just bad and unsuccessful cases in either/or gender, but I do think MTF's tend to require more treatments and surgeries if they are past prime puberty. It's just the facts, it's just what's common. MTF's have it very easy if they manage to get on hormones at age 12, but past then, they're usually out of luck. I've seen 30 year old FTM's who take testosterone and suddenly turn into the most handsome, youthful, modelesque boys ever - hardly ever see that with 30 year old MTF's without the aid of surgery. What's not fair most of all, though, are the boys and girls around us who, without any hormones at all and even up til middle age, pass perfectly as their desired gender (or could, if they were Trans.)

[NikaPlaidypus]

I've never actually thought about who has it worse.  It's bad enough for any transperson.  To try to outdo one another is just silly.  Yeah, but MtF... Yeah, but FtM... It's pretty rough either way and we should be supportive of one another instead of practicing our oneupmanship skills.

p.s. fire engines still aren't always red

[Bishounen]

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny

Thank you for the link.
However, If it is an invented term from a book where the writer believes that trans-activism is the same as feminism, then what reason is there to take the term seriously at all, in the context of the thread-topic?

Fact remains, that just as with the usage of the term 'Misogyny' in regards of trans-discrimination, that not even the term Trans-misogyny meets the criteria for 'technical' Misogyny either, as Misogyny is discrimination towards a person because of that persons Sex, not the inner gender identity, or, as Wikipedia defines the term; "Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls".

For instance, if someone sees a female, and disrespects that female because the discriminator have a disrespecting attitude towards that female as a female, then that is Misogyny.
However, if nonetheless using the term trans-misogyny hypothetically, then it can only be used in the circumstances that the discriminator/s actually views the MTF as a trans-female, not a male. For instance, when transwomen is by other transsexuals considered as not being "enough" transsexual or woman, or, if a transwoman is refused to store her sperm pre-surgery, only because she is a trans-woman, and so on.

However, the term can not be used in the circumstances where the discriminator disrespects an MTF because he/she do not view the subject as a woman or even as a transwoman at all, but sees a- quote- "Deranged" or "Masquerading" "man in a dress", as that attitude do not meet the criteria for Misogyny, simply because the discriminator do not hold the attitude he/she holds because he/she views the subject as a female but because he/she do not view the subject as a female.
At the very best, it could be called Misandry, but even that is not completely true either, as it is not about Sexism but about disrespect towards someone because that person is viewed as "Deviant" according to the discriminator/s.


This being said, and if one once again is nonetheless to use the term hypothetically, then there are far more trans-misogyny within the T-community than outside of it, as there are heckloads of more opinions and ideas about how a "Real Transsexual" is supposed to be in the community, than there are outside of it.

[A]

Only one fully neutral after having lived both in statistically equivalent situations could ever end this "debate", but such a person cannot exist, so why try?

It's a fact that on many points, FTMs have it easier. Notably, their voice changes on its own and they have no hair to remove. And even at older ages, hormone effects are still quite stunning, in most cases. Moreover, in society, men with feminine-ish features are often considered more youthful, more handsome; and personally, they're in my tastes. In short, physical features okay for a man, even at the price of being regarded as a teenager or a "chico", are very vast compared to women's, especially before the 40s, after which women start to look a little more manly for natural reasons.

On the other hand, women with masculine features, unless they are combined with very feminine ones (very tall, square-jawed and wide-shouldered BUT super thin and virtually hairless, for example, is the spitting image of a model, but remove the "thin" factor and add muscle and your have an entirely different situation), are generally regarded as ugly/not passing.

But MTFs can't deny that they have it easier on other significant fronts. They don't always need breast surgery, whereas FTMs pretty much always do. Also, their genital surgeries are far less costy and give much better results, with much less adverse effects. Even if she needs FFS and a lot of money to do so, pretty much any MTF is capable of being extremely hard to clock, even when naked. Furthermore, in an ideal situation in which transition is started before puberty, a MTF is capable of being almost identical to what she would have been if she had been born female.

FTMs, on the other hand, can hardly ever hope of having normal-looking, functional genitalia, at least for now.

Each "side" has its obvious difficulties and easy parts. Some points I stated as easier for one side or the other may be contested, but the very existence of easy fields for each side is a given. Denying the existence of those is stupid. Of course, FTMs have it easier in the voice domain; of course, MTFs can attain much better genital results. But no one can successfully compare the easy parts of each side and say which has it easier. Any such attempt is bound to fail.

[GinaDouglas]

Ok, let's just focus on the hardest elements.  For me, that would be this:

I go out, looking good.  A man who is repressing his minority homosexual tendencies feels a sexual attraction to me, but knows I am trans.  He blames me for making him feel attracted, and turns his inner hatred of his own tendencies on me, and wants to kill me.  Meanwhile, another guy who is battling transvestism sees me, and it makes him wonder what he would look/feel like in my shade of lipstick, and turns his own self-hatred on me, and wants to kill me.  Meanwhile, all the other people who are unhappy with choices they have made to conform to societal expectations resent that I do not conform, and some of them want to see me pay for my insolence.

FtMs certainly experience alot of the third condition, but I don't think much of the first two.

[Noah James]

Hmm, I was actually referred a rather interesting book by my therapist the other month that contained this nationwide survey of transgender people (and this included FtM, MtF, FtDG, MtDG, Genderqueer, Androgynous, and Crossdressers.) with nearly 3,500 participants. It's called 'The Lives of Transgender People', and I'm not sure if anyone's read it, but I'd definitely reccommend it.

Anywho, I was reading about a particular set of questions in this book/survey that were about the subject of harrassment due to transgender status, and I was a bit surprised to find the following:

RESPONDENTS' REPORTS OF HARRASSMENT AND VIOLENCE

"Twenty-seven percent (955) of the survey respondents indicated that they had been harrassed within the past year because of their gender identity and/or gender expression. When reviewing the data by transgender group, 47 percent (49) of the female-to-different-gender participants experienced harrassment as compared to the 22 percent (33) of the male-to-different-gender participants, 27 percent (584) of the male-to-female/transgender participants, and 35 percent (231) of the female-to-male/transgender participants."

- The Lives of Transgender People (pg 94) by Genny Beemyn and Susan Rankin

Now, the survey then breaks up the harrassment based on age, sexual orientation, level of outness, and race, but overall finds that - while close - FtMs and FtDGs experience more harrassment than MtFs and MtDGs.  I was a bit confused about this, as I was under the impression that MtFs and MtDGs received the most ridicule (due to society's intollerance when compared to FtMs and FtDGs) but apparently they're not. Still, it is a close number, so I wouldn't say in particular that one transgender group has it better overall.

Yes, FtMs generally pass more.
Yes, MtFs have more advanced surgery options.

When it comes down to it, those two (passability and surgery) are the general issues, so when you think about it, we seem to be fairly equal. The main thing that would tip the balance in any direction, in my opinion, would be situation. Do I have a supportive family? Supportive friends? Money? A safe environment? It's the sad truth, but if you can say yes to at least two of these, then you are going to have it a bit easier than others, be they FtM or MtF or FtDG or MtDG.