ending the "MTF have it harder" once and for all.

[A]

What are MTDGs and FTDGs?

[Felix]

I'm surprised this thread is still going. And lol that it hasn't degenerated into lockworthy mutual potshots.

We're all kinda screwed, really. And on top of that, most humans are in some way or another.

[Noah James]

What are MTDGs and FTDGs?

Male-to-different-gender and female-to-different-gender. 

[A]

Like, Male-to-Androgynous or Female-to-Crossdresser or things like that?

[Noah James]

Like, Male-to-Androgynous or Female-to-Crossdresser or things like that?

Yeah, kinda like that. It's for the people who identify as a third gender, but not Androgynous or Genderqueer. 

[A]

Thank you.

[GentlemanRDP]

So, I'm going to try and NOT sound like a dick here...but,
I don't really agree with your comparison, yes, when you type it up like that, there are the same changes.
But the fact is that the changes are different in very specific ways.

When you look at an MTF they have these kind of obstacles when they're trying to pass.
Many MTFs are taller than bio-women. You can't make yourself shorter unfortunately.
A bio-man's facial features are different from a woman's. They're much more angular (( Typically )) Not always. And it's easier to create the illusion of angles than try and take the angles away. Yes, there is FFS, but it can only do so much.
Many MTF's also have larger hands compared to bio-woman, the infamous 'man-hands,'
The voice. To my understanding, deeper voices come from thick vocal chords and higher voices come from thinner ones that can vibrate faster. I don't know if hormones change this, but I do know if the case of an FTM, they're voices don't go back higher after the chords thicken (( Correct me on this if anyone knows for sure ))
No boobs. I don't really know how an MTF does this before hormones, but I know how hormones can help them grow.
And of course, the penis. Yes, MTFs can tuck (( Which I can only assume is EXTREMELY painful ))

Now, for FTMs, Obstacles include;
Being shorter than other men. I stuff my shoes with paper to gain another inch or so, but some FTMs buy lifts.
Some of us have 'softer' faces than bio-men, but jaw-lines can be angled with make up to create the illusion of angles. And let us not forget that the 'baby-faced' man is sometimes fawned over, which helps in this prospect.
If an FTM has 'girly-hands' that can sometimes change with T, but not always.
The voice. T will generally make it lower after a few months, helping with passing.
Boobs. We bind, and it hurts like ->-bleeped-<-. Biggest downside, right here.
Lack of penis. Packie or condom filled with hairgel.


I don't wanna be a snob, but I think this is a more realistic way of looking at the changes between MTFs and FTMs.
And I'll say, that on average, when I look at MTFs, I see more of them that I can say, "Yeah...I can believe that that was a bio-male," compared to FTMs where I tend to think, "Wait...what...really? NO WAY!?" However, there ARE exceptions.

Besides, there's more to passing than just fixing the above obstacles.
Things like age. Those who transition younger are more likely to pass because their body hasn't fully developed yet, and of course, the amount of time that they've been on hormones.
I'm not saying these things to be a douche or single out the MTFs, because I love and respect you all,
But...I will admit, that sometimes, it seems that they got the short-end of the stick. No pun intended.

[A]

I pretty much agree with GentlemanRDP on most points, except I want to correct one point:

Actually, tucking isn't very painful. It's just uncomfortable and unstable (doesn't hold very long, and is likely to let you down as soon as you run or sit up/down a few times) unless you tape... Well THAT one is painful, though.

However, we get much better bottom surgery than you guys, don't we? So I'd tend to guess this fact kind of balances out with the points on which guys have more trouble.

PS: The unintended pun was funny. o.o

[Chamillion]

I don't think either has it harder, it's all circumstantial.

I consider myself to have had a really easy transition overall. There are people from both sides who had an equally easy time, and then there are others who have a really difficult transition. I also don't think you can really say MTF's have to deal with X obstacle and FTM's with Y obstacle, because not all of us deal with the things being mentioned. Example, everyone points out MTF's have it better in regards to surgeries. But the lack of bottom surgery options isn't a problem I have to deal with because I'm good with what I have and don't want surgery, so how would this be something that is making my transition 'harder'? The same can be said about any of the negatives that have pointed out on this thread. They will only apply to individuals and won't hold true for the whole group.

[Æsher]

^ This. Some have it hard, some don't, regardless of which transition they're going through. An MtF with supportive family/friends and loads of money doesn't have it harder than a penniless FtM who was disowned by his family, rejected by his friends, and abused by everyone around him; and to say that MtFs have it harder simply because they're MtFs is dismissing and invalidating the horrific experiences that some transmen have had (and vice versa, of course). It's completely impossible to judge which transition is "easier" or "harder" because the easiness/hardness of transition depends on the individual and his/her specific environment. All we're doing in this thread is arguing about the nonexistent experiences of hypothetical "typical" transfolk, which gets us nowhere because "typical" doesn't exist, only individuals.

[RhinoP]

Basically, with MTF's, if a Male has every scientifically defined Male trait (Brow Bossing, Beard Stuble, Androgenic Skin Properites, Balding, Body Hair, Lack Of Breasts, A Penis, Overly Large Nose, Butt Chin, Sqaure Jaw), then to achieve a 100% appearance of being Female, his journey will, according to fact and study, cost around $50,000-$60,000.

With FTM's, if they have every defined Female trait (Breasts, Vagina - there are no other scientific traits that occur on Females only, and cannot be 100% achieved with Hormones alone), then their journey, by statistic and study, will cost around $15,000.

In my opinion, $15,000 is something that a Student can accomplish, while $50,000 is something that most middle-aged adults can't handle.

Just trying to keep it real. There's no sense in playing the equality card when, when you take average person of both sexes, Males clearly develop more features that by no scientific definition occur on Females, while there are very few Female traits that do not happen on a large portion of Males, especially young Males. There's also clearly people of both sexes that, at rare times, Pass without even trying (there's both FTM models and MTF models) but I'm talking about the extremes that sexual development can present, which is what we more often see with people who have to get their support from an internet forum instead of being able to model fashions. These things mix and match, but again, science proves that many Males tend to develop traits that by no definition or statistic ever occur or have ever occurred on Females. And sadly, in our country, these features take money to correct, while many Females have the exact craniofacial shape as a pre-adult Male. If the government gave us all money to fix every gender trait, we'd all have it equal, but it's not that way.

But that's just speaking of the science and anatomy.

[kelly_aus]

Basically, with MTF's, if a Male has every scientifically defined Male trait (Brow Bossing, Beard Stuble, Androgenic Skin Properites, Balding, Body Hair, Lack Of Breasts, A Penis, Overly Large Nose, Butt Chin, Sqaure Jaw), then to achieve a 100% appearance of being Female, his journey will, according to fact and study, cost around $50,000-$60,000.

With FTM's, if they have every defined Female trait (Breasts, Vagina - there are no other scientific traits that occur on Females only, and cannot be 100% achieved with Hormones alone), then their journey, by statistic and study, will cost around $15,000.

In my opinion, $15,000 is something that a Student can accomplish, while $50,000 is something that most middle-aged adults can't handle.

Just trying to keep it real. There's no sense in playing the equality card when, when you take average person of both sexes, Males clearly develop more features that by no scientific definition occur on Females, while there are very few Female traits that do not happen on a large portion of Males, especially young Males. There's also clearly people of both sexes that, at rare times, Pass without even trying (there's both FTM models and MTF models) but I'm talking about the extremes that sexual development can present, which is what we more often see with people who have to get their support from an internet forum instead of being able to model fashions. These things mix and match, but again, science proves that many Males tend to develop traits that by no definition or statistic ever occur or have ever occurred on Females. And sadly, in our country, these features take money to correct, while many Females have the exact craniofacial shape as a pre-adult Male. If the government gave us all money to fix every gender trait, we'd all have it equal, but it's not that way.

But that's just speaking of the science and anatomy.

And it's mostly wrong... I had a fairly masculine looking face until I started HRT.. Now and without surgery? I pass, but I suspect I have slightly different aims than some. My breasts are filling in nicely, if slowly, so no surgery planned for those.. Facial surgery is required for some, and some feel the need for it regardless of their appearance, but it is by no means required for all. And as I mention to Beverley below, there are plenty of women who have what would be considered masculine features, in fact, the woman I share my house with has a more masculine chin and jaw than I do..

I expect that to complete the physical side of my transition for around the $20,000 to $25,000 mark..

I can see where you are going wrong. There are PLENTY of females with attributes from your masculine list. There are women with square jaws, there are women with strong chins, there are women with hair problems or a big nose. Also, not every male has strong features that you list.

Indeed there are plenty of women around who have 'masculine' features, at least at my end of the island..

To pass as female you do not even need to have the "100% appearance of being female", anything over 50% will usually do. Breasts are easy to come by for an MtF (mine are doing very nicely but I have spent more on chinese food in the last year than I have spent on my breasts in the same period).

Beverley

Careful voicing that kind of comment here Beverley, lest you be branded a heretic and burnt at the stake.. I happen to agree with you, otherwise I would not have the passing success I do..

[Æsher]

With FTM's, if they have every defined Female trait (Breasts, Vagina - there are no other scientific traits that occur on Females only, and cannot be 100% achieved with Hormones alone), then their journey, by statistic and study, will cost around $15,000.

*spews tea* Wait, we're talking top surgery and bottom surgery?! Idk what statistics & studies you're looking at but FtM bottom surgery costs a bomb the last time I checked.

In addition, as Beverley and kelly_aus said, many females have classically masculine traits. In fact I can't think of a single masculine trait that I have never before seen in a female.

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

*spews tea* Wait, we're talking top surgery and bottom surgery?! Idk what statistics & studies you're looking at but FtM bottom surgery costs a bomb the last time I checked.

In addition, as Beverley and kelly_aus said, many females have classically masculine traits. In fact I can't think of a single masculine trait that I have never before seen in a female.

many ftm don't even get it for that reason. i'm sure ftm would still want their breasts removed and a hysterectomy, which cost alot. ftm can bind, but from what i hear, it's not comfortable. you would have scars after the breast removal that stay there. people would notice them. people tend to associate females with being "underdeveloped males," which i don't believe. maybe an ftm can be more convincing quite naturally given enough time on testosterone, but who is really one extreme or the other? i would imagine if you had a body like marilyn monroe, passing as a man would be very difficult. many ftm who do pass report problems of "passing, but not as my age."

[pretty]

I think the main problem for MTFs is that so many start so late compared to FTMs. It seems like, at least on susan's, the FTM crowd is much younger (not that there isn't a number of younger MTFs including myself).

It's sooo much harder for an MTF to become passable when they start later, especially if they had difficult genes. Of course many turn out very well, but it seems like it's a much lower rate than the younger MTFs.

And I think maybe the standards a little different for MTFs because women are expected to put more work into their appearance. Some MTFs are not ready or willing to fit that image and it causes them to ignore makeup which is actually a very useful passing tool.

[pretty]

Yes and no. Older women are not expected to be 'babes' or 'gorgeous pretty' and as GGs get older their features do coarsen somewhat. Transitioning to being an older female is easier in some ways. Working against you is the fact that your male body has also coarsened as well, but a lot of this can be reversed with exercise, diet, exfoliation and gallons of moisturiser.

Well, if by you you mean me specifically, I stopped growing when I was 13 or 14 and I'm still pretty tiny and have very little masculine development. It's true my face changed a bit though, because people think I look about 16 now it seems. But certainly, someone my age could have changed a lot. I think there is a lot more potential for genetic luck to shine at this point. And HRT is still a bit more forgiving on tough genes. Once you get older, the finer changes set the bar higher and the effectiveness of HRT drops off a bit. I don't think you can actually reverse T damage, but at least you can cover it up with a hygienic presentation 

You mean they are not 'trans enough?'

I do know what you mean. I know some MtF people for whom boobs and SRS are all they want or need and they do not care about their appearance or who stares at them or what people think. Blending in is not something they care about.

Beverley

Sorry, I did not mean they are "not trans enough." I would never use that term anyway, personally I aspire to feminine standards and not trans ones 

But all I meant to say was, if you have a person who wanted to present socially as a woman bad enough to go through transition, it would be a shame to go through all that and then choose to not make use of makeup, which is one of the most helpful passing tools. And I see some people resisting makeup while still struggling with not passing and I just wonder why they would do that.

[kelly_aus]

But all I meant to say was, if you have a person who wanted to present socially as a woman bad enough to go through transition, it would be a shame to go through all that and then choose to not make use of makeup, which is one of the most helpful passing tools. And I see some people resisting makeup while still struggling with not passing and I just wonder why they would do that.

Oh I quite agree, but there are some for whom the possession of a female body is enough (boobs / srs) and they want nothing further. I do not understand it either.

Beverley

Here's my take on that.. Some of us don't like it.. Some of us don't need it.. And contrary to popular belief around here, not all ciswomen wear it..

[pretty]

Here's my take on that.. Some of us don't like it.. Some of us don't need it.. And contrary to popular belief around here, not all ciswomen wear it..

I was talking specifically about MTFs who are having problems passing but still don't use makeup. Makeup is a bit of a different thing for cis women because it's only used to look prettier. For MTFs, makeup is used to look prettier and to look more feminine.

Cis women can better afford to not use makeup. Unless, I guess, the MTF doesn't care about passing.

[Walter]

I always thought it was easier for MtF's than FtM's. At least what I've seen, it seems like MtF's are more respected for their transition than FtM's. I see FtM's being pointed out more as lesbians, butch's and such things more than the other way around. Maybe it's just what I've seen and maybe that's not the case

Edit: I'm not trying to start an argument..I'm just posting my thought

[Nero]

In terms of passing I always thought that FtM was easier because T alters so much, but in terms of surgery I am so glad to be MtF.

Beverley

And this is basically what it boils down to. There are pluses and minuses on both sides. For somebody for whom bottom surgery is very important, it's probably easier to be MtF (there's for the most part one surgery that does it all at a reasonable price (when compared to ours). If effortless passability is the focus, it's probably easier to be FtM. These are of course generalities, YMMV, and all that.