Which fork would you take?

[kelly_aus]

While I think I understand where you are coming from, I'll continue to get my psychiatric and psychological advice from my therapist.. After the hour of digging around in my head, even he was forced to admit that it was an amazingly healthy concept.. And somewhat surprising, given my personal history.

I also think you may misunderstand me slightly, I do care what my friends and family think of me.. It's the rest of the world I don't give a crap about..

[sonopoly]

MsDazzler, your perspective is interesting.  I never thought people would "choose" to be trans purely based on attractiveness and popularity.  From reading this forum for a few years, I've learned that it's something deep within.  I do understand that you think life is much better and happier if a person is attractive, though not all attractive people are popular.  They may attract people initially and may be able to hold the attention of someone for a period of time even, but if there's nothing else there, it won't last (happily anyway).  I see plenty of unattractive people every day who are married with families and who seem quite happy.

I guess I don't see how being a hot gay male with all sorts of people chasing him and having one-night stands every night equates to being happy, nor do I think that being an unattractive female means a life of loneliness and misery.  It just simply isn't true.

I do respect your feelings about yourself and believe that you are being honest.  It's just different than what I've seen here by most trans people.  I think everyone is trying to find happiness and what makes each person happy is different.

[MsDazzler]

Yes, looks are important to some, but surely not all (I for one do care, but it is not the reason I am transitioning).  If no one claimed to care, none of us would be concerned with passing.  BUT, as said; passing does not necessarily equal being attractive, and vice versa.  As for option #1 - it cannot be assumed that just because a handful of trans people were once content with their previous gender, that all of us were; this is simply not the case.  I could not be happy as a gay male, and I can assure you the "gay" part is not the issue.  I despise once being male, despite acknowledging it.  Hell, for all I know, as a guy I could have been unattractive, and for all I know once my transition is complete I could be unattractive as a woman (despite how much I do care about my looks) - that's life.  Not every woman who has less-than-glam looks is unhappy, and not every gay guy who has charming looks is happy.  We are who we are and make peace with that first; being attractive is merely an added bonus.

Yes I know that being attractive does not automatically equate popularity nor being ugly automatically equate isolation.

But as I patiently repeat, for the sake of discussion, suppose you could be, indeed a popular and hot gay guy with a happy and fulfilling life or indeed an unpopular and fugly woman with a zero social life, given a chance to redo your life prior to transitioning or hell, before you were born and God presented you with two choices....

That is what people seems not to be getting here. Is being gay such a repugnant concept that you can't fathom being happy as one?

[Emi]

Well,  for me this  is actually my present problem...
I must chosee between be a almost atractive guy, straigh / bisexual ...maybe a bit  androginous..if i got lucky whit my transform.
or be  whatever i got..but maybe a  not passable, maybe not atractive  woman... solitary..because the lesbian girl  surely will never  want to date whit me.

In a utopic situation i would say "sure!! i am a woman no matter if i would be   ugly!!" but..is not so easy for me..and i really believe that is natural feel this.because...one female  desire always is feel herself atractive..beuty...

Of course this used to crush in one point...no matters how much hot you  are as guy...the straigh girls..usually  dont put  to much attention to your manly beuty..they see more  your personality...and others factors...and of course..how my personality is  more female than male...i used  to loose any chance whit a woman that want be whit a man....

So just to end..i am not sure what i would chosee...in some months maybe i told you XD

[MsDazzler]

I'm not sure why you'd think I would jump on you, but I'm gay, so that kinda doesn't work. I wished I was a gay boy sometimes, instead of a girl, you know. It would have been so much simpler. I made a slight pretty andro boy - to the point that I accidentally passed as a girl rather a lot. But I wasn't really interested in dating anyone, regardless of gender. The idea of being with someone without disclosing what I was horrified me, and I was too scared to disclose. Add that to my body dysphoria and the testosterone-induced depression and I just couldn't give a ->-bleeped-<- about being with anyone.

I did try one relationship before transitioning. She'd known I was trans for a year before we got together. It was still... complicated. And I wouldn't have done it again.

I'm not resilient enough to survive the kinds of situations you are suggesting. I didn't really care about breathing enough as it was. I'm just not a very brave girl.

Well because people seem to fire bullets or get hissy every time the subject of homosexuality is approached... and I was flamed for merely suggesting that having an existence of being a popular, happy, and hot gay guy might be preferrable to an existence of an unpopular, depressed, and unattradtive woman given a chance at a life redo. Not only this thread but any other gay-related thread (unless it is lesbian-related)

It just has feelings of internalized homophobia carried over from having led lives as hetero men with lack of exposure to the LGBT community or being ingrained with homophobic doctrine or being around other people who were homophobic while growing up.

[MsDazzler]

MsDazzler, your perspective is interesting.  I never thought people would "choose" to be trans purely based on attractiveness and popularity.  From reading this forum for a few years, I've learned that it's something deep within.  I do understand that you think life is much better and happier if a person is attractive, though not all attractive people are popular.  They may attract people initially and may be able to hold the attention of someone for a period of time even, but if there's nothing else there, it won't last (happily anyway).  I see plenty of unattractive people every day who are married with families and who seem quite happy.

I guess I don't see how being a hot gay male with all sorts of people chasing him and having one-night stands every night equates to being happy, nor do I think that being an unattractive female means a life of loneliness and misery.  It just simply isn't true.

I do respect your feelings about yourself and believe that you are being honest.  It's just different than what I've seen here by most trans people.  I think everyone is trying to find happiness and what makes each person happy is different.

Thank you But again I emphasize, attractiveness and popularity are some of the factors that make people decide to transition or not.

I know few trans friends in real life who were depressed and lonely ugly gay men but transformed in stunningly beautiful MTFs and became popular. Just saying that there are people out there who transitioned for other reasons than the "I must or I die" reason. We would be judgmental to take the higher moral ground to say one reason is less valid or better than another.

Besides, Syms29 has been pretty upfront about her reasons for wanting to transition and it has nothing to do with "I must or I die"... Is she bonkers? Maybe so, maybe she definitely needs a shrink first.... but we can't pass judgment on her. If she rather transition to have a better life as a stunning woman than a life as an ugly man, so be it. For her, quality of life based on appearances is a high priority.

[sonopoly]

ut as I patiently repeat, for the sake of discussion, suppose you could be, indeed a popular and hot gay guy with a happy and fulfilling life or indeed an unpopular and fugly woman with a zero social life, given a chance to redo your life prior to transitioning or hell, before you were born and God presented you with two choices....

Well, if you put it this way, meaning that a person has no power to make oneself be liked and loved (which is unrealistic, but if we're talking Twilight Zone scenarios....), then yes, I would choose to be the happy hot gay guy!

[Emi]

Well, not my case... i  have a lot of exposure  in the LGTB community..because  have gay friends...my sister is lesbian..and well i   used to  explore my sexuality whit men too...that explation end whit the discover that i  dont liek men ..but sometimes i got some fanties about them...so maybe i am a bit bisexual who knos..or maybe men ar jut a kinky for me...

Well to the point...in my case..a i told in other post... the "man to man" thing and the "strigh woman whit striagh men" thing ... make me  react inside (but  try to dont  explode and  do  the kind of comment that you refer... because  some lesbian women feel  the same competitiveness or disgust against men that some gay men feel against women  (my gay friend used to dislike  and hate women...whit some few exceptions)

[eli77]

Well because people seem to fire bullets or get hissy every time the subject of homosexuality is approached... and I was flamed for merely suggesting that having an existence of being a popular, happy, and hot gay guy might be preferrable to an existence of an unpopular, depressed, and unattradtive woman. Not only this thread but any other gay-related thread (unless it is lesbian-related)

Well, that's pretty ->-bleeped-<-. If it makes you feel any better, there's been some pretty nasty lesbian-related threads too. The posts that imply I'm not really female 'cause I like girls, or I'm just confused about my sexuality, or I'm not feminine enough to be a real girl... The forums go through cycles.

It's sad to see people getting all twisted up over other peoples' identities and experiences. How much effort does it really take to just let people BE, and not make assumptions and judgments? What happened to diversity being a good thing? Bleh. I'd rather talk about skin care. 

[sonopoly]

MsDazzler, I think everyone has a right to make their own choices for their lives and shouldn't be questioned, or maybe they should only for their sake -- to make sure they don't make irreparable mistakes.  I think some people here have it easier because they live in an accepting community with very accepting family members and friends while others live in quite the opposite environment.  I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think a person in an accepting environment may transition without having the extreme "do or die" dysphoria.  Whereas a transperson with very little dysphoria in a very conservative, restrictive community may not transition, but would if he/she were in a more open and accepting environment.

[Emi]

Well, that's pretty ->-bleeped-<-. If it makes you feel any better, there's been some pretty nasty lesbian-related threads too. The posts that imply I'm not really female 'cause I like girls, or I'm just confused about my sexuality, or I'm not feminine enough to be a real girl... The forums go through cycles.

It's sad to see people getting all twisted up over other peoples' identities and experiences. How much effort does it really take to just let people BE, and not make assumptions and judgments? What happened to diversity being a good thing? Bleh. I'd rather talk about skin care. 

this  answer have a lot of sense. Usually all we have diferent experience of life....and is not easy understand others. Usualyl  as a lesbian transgender..i dont have any support where i live....hhere all the other trans girls that i meet are straight...and dont believe that a trans woman can be lesbian

[MsDazzler]

Well, if you put it this way, meaning that a person has no power to make oneself be liked and loved (which is unrealistic, but if we're talking Twilight Zone scenarios....), then yes, I would choose to be the happy hot gay guy!

+1 to this - she understands what i am driving at

[stldrmgrl]

But as I patiently repeat, for the sake of discussion, suppose you could be, indeed a popular and hot gay guy with a happy and fulfilling life or indeed an unpopular and fugly woman with a zero social life, given a chance to redo your life prior to transitioning or hell, before you were born and God presented you with two choices....

That is what people seems not to be getting here. Is being gay such a repugnant concept that you can't fathom being happy as one?

You're asking a question in which is so hypothetical in nature that you're insisting we not put any actual true emotion into it.  Thus, I interpret this question to imply I would be utterly brain-dead, however given just enough brain power to understand the two choices and the ability to press button A or button B, which in turn would choose my lifestyle.  Given this; a complete memory wipe, no prior dysphoria or knowledge of being trans, and the ability to choose a lifestyle that would either guarantee happiness via being an attractive homosexual male or misery via being an unattractive woman, of course the majority of us would pick A.  Seeing as these are simply ludicrous stipulations even in the form of being hypothetical, I cannot bring myself to answer the question despite my inadvertent doing so in my prior sentence.  However, with actual true emotion added to the equation, I remain with choice B.

[MsDazzler]

You're asking a question in which is so hypothetical in nature that you're insisting we not put any actual true emotion into it.  Thus, I interpret this question to imply I would be utterly brain-dead, however given just enough brain power to understand the two choices and the ability to press button A or button B, which in turn would choose my lifestyle.  Given this; a complete memory wipe, no prior dysphoria and knowledge of being trans, and the ability to choose a lifestyle that would either guarantee happiness via being an attractive homosexual male or misery via being an unattractive woman, of course the majority of us would pick A.  Seeing as these are simply ludicrous stipulations even in the form of being hypothetical, I cannot bring myself to answer the question despite my inadvertent doing so in my prior sentence.  However, with actual true emotion added to the equation, I remain with choice B.

To be honest, when I threw out that hypothetical situation, I was not even expecting strong and intense responses. I thought it was a simple & innocent "this or that" situation - and to see how important appearance/popularity was to people here...

[stldrmgrl]

To be honest, when I threw out that hypothetical situation, I was not even expecting strong and intense responses. I thought it was a simple & innocent "this or that" situation - and how important appearance/popularity was to people here...

  Ya, I figured this thread got out of hand...but is that really so surprising?

Look, I mean nothing negative by my comments.  I admire your creativity...even if I don't quite understand it 

[MacKenzie]

   Yeah I have to agree with Amy, it's like asking "would you rather be rich or would you rather be poor?" obviously people are gonna say they would rather be rich. I think the reason the majority of people here said they would rather be an unattractive girl rather then being a gay guy is because most transsexuals don't want to be a guy period.


   I think an equally balanced question would've appealed more to people rather then this one sided question. 

 

   

[MsDazzler]

MsDazzler, I think everyone has a right to make their own choices for their lives and shouldn't be questioned, or maybe they should only for their sake -- to make sure they don't make irreparable mistakes.  I think some people here have it easier because they live in an accepting community with very accepting family members and friends while others live in quite the opposite environment.  I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think a person in an accepting environment may transition without having the extreme "do or die" dysphoria.  Whereas a transperson with very little dysphoria in a very conservative, restrictive community may not transition, but would if he/she were in a more open and accepting environment.

I agree -  I noticed people who come from LGBT environments tend to have very little "I must or I die" feelings compared those to who do not come from LGBT environments. I presume it is because LGBT culture, especially in San Francisco, is open to gender experimentation so those who transitioned have had already opportuities to express their gender safely over the years so the frustation doesn't get built up over the years from being repressed like one in a midwest, LGBT-devoid culture.

For example, a gay man who grew up arund people who are okay with showing femme characteristics, drag, and transfolks will have opportunities to be able to dress up as a woman in a safe space then eventually decide that he is better off as a woman because he got "previews" of what he would look like and saw that he would be popular. Because he never had to bottle up or repress, it never built to the "I must or I die" volcano.

Contrast this with a hetero man who grows up around homophobic people who say "->-bleeped-<-" at the slightest show of feminiity is bound to have all those feelings and not being able to play with gender presentation building up and bottled until it blows or spiral into a severe depression then "I must or I die" finally happens.

So you see how two different people from different backgrounds might arrive at the point of transitioning for different reasons. It just happens that appearnce and popularity played a role in the guy #1's decision because he had opportubities to "preview", while the guy #2 never really had any "previews" (perhaps aside from discreet and guilty cross dressing in private) so appearance and popularity never enters the picture.

[MsDazzler]

   Yeah I have to agree with Amy, it's like asking "would you rather be rich or would you rather be poor?" obviously people are gonna say they would rather be rich. I think the reason the majority of people here said they would rather be an unattractive girl rather then being a gay guy is because most transsexuals don't want to be a guy period.


   I think an equally balanced question would've appealed more to people rather then this one sided question. 

 

That is what people are NOT getting here. I know of course, transgender people are transgender because they are not happy with their assigned gender at birth. That is patently obvious. I am not challenging whether you are transgender or not.

I just was taken aback when people started insisting appearances and popularity were irrevelant to transition, when in truth, they are.

And it is an one-sided question? How so?

Would it be more balanced to say, "Would you rather be a popular, happy, and attractive heterowoman than be an ugly, depressed, and lonely hetero man?" 100%, not the majority, would choose Option A, of course. 

That is why I mixed it up by throwing in the homosexual quality - which apparently stirred the pot for some. heh.

[kelly_aus]

That is what people are NOT getting here. I know of course, transgender people are transgender because they are not happy with their assigned gender at birth. That is patently obvious. I am not challenging whether you are transgender or not.

I just was taken aback when people started insisting appearances and popularity were irrevelant to transition, when in truth, they are.

Not for everyone it seems.. And this seems to be something you don't get..

[Nurse With Wound]

Exactly - and I get blasted for even questioning why one would rather be an ugly and depressed hetero woman than a hot gay man if given a chance to redo life with either those two choices as a blank human slate being.

Because it entirely changes who we are as a person (at least for me), being a hot gay guy is so very far from being anything close to me I can say if I chose that option that I wouldn't even be me anymore, it'd be like never being born, or being dead.

   Yeah I have to agree with Amy, it's like asking "would you rather be rich or would you rather be poor?" obviously people are gonna say they would rather be rich. I think the reason the majority of people here said they would rather be an unattractive girl rather then being a gay guy is because most transsexuals don't want to be a guy period.


   I think an equally balanced question would've appealed more to people rather then this one sided question. 

To me it's more like "would you rather be poor or would you rather be poor?" being attractive as a guy has never been a desire of mine, attractive masculine traits tend to not be how I want to be seen nor how I want to see myself.

And sure appearance has some factors in, but there's plenty trans girls who were very attractive as guys and popular even, just being attractive as a guy wouldn't be enough to remove dysphoria for some people.