"Truth" about having female traits, mannerisms, likes, etc.

[insideontheoutside]

So basically, to the majority of people in current, western civilization, the "truth" (and I say that lightly because while it may be majority rule, it's certainly not 100% true) is that if you are physically male (or just identify as male) and if you:

1) have any female mannerisms
2) have any female features
3) like anything traditionally segregated to females (ex: makeup, sewing, etc. etc.)
4) have a higher pitched voice

You are to be made fun of or at the very least totally harassed by other people (probably most being other males). For most trans guys I would even say that the majority of people would still call you female because of one or more of these things as well.

Now, like I mentioned above there are certainly exceptions to this but even if it's a friendly jest people still comment or poke fun. I have friends that completely accept me as male, but kid me about being short (they say I'm "portable" because most anyone could pick up me if they wanted!) Throughout my life it just seems inevitable.

Without getting into semantics of culture throughout the ages or other current cultures where something that seems "Feminine" to another culture is completely accepted for males (ex: kilts are basically skirts - but yeah, don't go there with a Scotsmen!) what are the thoughts on this phenomenon?

Also, knowing that you can't change what the majority of other people think, do you think it's better to just keep being yourself or to succumb and try to mold yourself to what society considers to be "completely male" (I'm not talking about hormones or SRS here - just mannerisms, style, your actual personality ... things like that)?

Is it more important to be:
A) Accepted by society as male (and therefore treated as such) at all costs
B) Be yourself at all costs
C) or are you willing to change some things (if so, give reasons) but not others?

Discuss.

[Kreuzfidel]

I would also like to insert a vice versa here: while it's more "accepted" in Western cultures for girls to be "tomboys", many are also teased and given a hard time for "acting unladylike". I was relentlessly criticised my entire life for sitting with my legs apart, walking like a man, enjoying stereotypically masculine pasttimes and dressing in "men's clothes".  My feminist mother, aunt and grandmother went so far as to try to have an outright intervention with me at 12 years old to attempt to feminise me.  But yes, I would be myself in most situations, but mindful of the fact that my self-acceptance of any "feminine mannerisms" of mine doesn't necessarily mean that ignorant people are going to do the same.  Being myself is not worth my life and safety, so unfortunately I am conscious of my mannerisms when I am in situations that involve ignorant drunk blokes for example.

[Darrin Scott]

I would also like to insert a vice versa here: while it's more "accepted" in Western cultures for girls to be "tomboys", many are also teased and given a hard time for "acting unladylike". I was relentlessly criticised my entire life for sitting with my legs apart, walking like a man, enjoying stereotypically masculine pasttimes and dressing in "men's clothes".  My feminist mother, aunt and grandmother went so far as to try to have an outright intervention with me at 12 years old to attempt to feminise me.  But yes, I would be myself in most situations, but mindful of the fact that my self-acceptance of any "feminine mannerisms" of mine doesn't necessarily mean that ignorant people are going to do the same.  Being myself is not worth my life and safety, so unfortunately I am conscious of my mannerisms when I am in situations that involve ignorant drunk blokes for example.

Agreed.

We do hear a lot about it being more acceptable for a girl to act/dress more masculine then the other way around. We also have to be mindful that it's not all roses for these girls, either. Like Kreuzfidel, I was teased relentlessly for not being a "typical girl" growing up and it drove me to deep depression. In fact, all the teasing growing up was because of my gender.

[Henri]

For me it depends on the situation. In a school environment with my best friend I will be myself because she has known me forever and it is pointless to restrain myself. She's kind of a cynical person in the first place so I don't ever mind when she pokes fun at me, most of it having to do with my height. When I am not in her company but with my good male friends, I find that I don't restrain myself very much either. My "profession" is art so I can get away with a lot of "feminine" behavior while still having them view me as male. Occasionally we kind of "contest" each other in our masculinity, and I have taken to calling one of the guys in my group "Pretty Boy" because he is kind of fashion-conscious compared to the other guys in the group. So basically if they poke fun at me, I find room to do the same to them. The guys I hang out with are fairly masculine but they do have their "feminine" quirks which I subtly encourage in them. All in all I don't have extremely feminine mannerisms though. Like Kreuzfidel mentioned, most of the times that I've been harassed for my behavior was back in the day when I was presenting as female and people found me too "insensitive" or something of the sort.

However, in school situations where I am with people I do not know and who perceive me as male, I end up taking caution with how much of myself I express because I am afraid I might do something to make them realize something is off. Usually I tend to brush off interaction almost completely with them. This is also true of when I am just about outside of school and people perceive me as male. At this point I feel insecure about my ability to pass during any extended interaction with someone, and so I do whatever I need to in order to compensate so that I remain perceived as male. I think when I am further along in my transition and am completely comfortable with my passing ability I might be a bit more loose, but for now I don't really mind having to compensate since I am not much of a social person anyways.

As far as my style of clothing, that is what I feel I need to restrain the most. This is mostly because where I live people tend to be very traditionally dressed in stereotypically male or female clothing, and anyone who isn't really stands out. I noticed the contrast between where I live and the other day when I was at the Dali museum in St. Petersburg, FL, where there was much more variation in the ways people dressed, especially males. There was a lot less pressure to be completely masculine. If I had my way I would probably dress in a more androgynous style that still reflected a masculine personality, but where I live I find myself curbing my wardrobe, and when I am looking to buy new clothes I have to ask myself "would I get made fun of (or worse) if I wore this?". I've been called things like a ->-bleeped-<-/freak/etc. before at my school when I wear some things I own even now so the possibility of me being harassed or worse is definitely probable, and I look to avoid that. I'd rather not have to deal with hateful behavior so for the most part I dress kind of nondescriptly. However, on days when I feel up to it, I'll wear something less stereotypical and deal with any looks or confrontations by changing my behavior to something a bit more "stony" in a sense so that people can't get to me.

[fionabell]

The OP seems to be about avoiding harassment.

Mtf's have a lot of trouble passing physically/visually. I think you guys have more trouble passing mentally.

Society says that men don't understand the way women think but I think it's women who don't understand the way men think.

Cismen don't discuss these topics like you guys. They accept that life as a male is ultra competitive and really hard.

Life as a male:

No tender physical touch ever, from anyone. Except your wife or girlfriend. If you don't have a girl for a few years. Too bad. You ain't gettin' touched honey.

No support of any other kind. If you lose you job. Guess what? If you don't get another , you'll lose your wife too. Can you move back with your parents? Nope. No one wants their sons coming back. That position's reserved for the daughters.

If you get injured, you better be insured because no one else will pay for it.
You know what this means? You can't live the bohemian lifestyle anymore, you can't waltz around at university for years on end. You have to stay at that soul destroying job till your dying day. Which isn't that far off , thank god for your sakes, because of the stress problems you are faced with.

Mtf's have a lot of social problems and prejudice but I think you guys have the harder road......especially if you pass 100%

You want to avoid harassment? maybe work on not passing.

[insideontheoutside]

The OP seems to be about avoiding harassment.

Mtf's have a lot of trouble passing physically/visually. I think you guys have more trouble passing mentally.

Society says that men don't understand the way women think but I think it's women who don't understand the way men think.

Cismen don't discuss these topics like you guys. They accept that life as a male is ultra competitive and really hard.

Life as a male:

No tender physical touch ever, from anyone. Except your wife or girlfriend. If you don't have a girl for a few years. Too bad. You ain't gettin' touched honey.

No support of any other kind. If you lose you job. Guess what? If you don't get another , you'll lose your wife too. Can you move back with your parents? Nope. No one wants their sons coming back. That position's reserved for the daughters.

If you get injured, you better be insured because no one else will pay for it.
You know what this means? You can't live the bohemian lifestyle anymore, you can't waltz around at university for years on end. You have to stay at that soul destroying job till your dying day. Which isn't that far off , thank god for your sakes, because of the stress problems you are faced with.

Mtf's have a lot of social problems and prejudice but I think you guys have the harder road......especially if you pass 100%

You want to avoid harassment? maybe work on not passing.

On the contrary, I'm actually on the "be yourself" team. I am fascinated about other people's take on it though.

I have known many males in my time that enjoy conversation and discussions on a wide range of topics - ones that didn't include sex or football scores or the like.  I think you actually touched on a very large stereotype about men that's perpetuated by the majority. But there are certainly those that don't fit that mold. And yes, I get your hint of sarcasm there

Everyone else that brought up the "vice versa" topic, I agree that being a male-acting/looking "female" certainly has its pitfalls. What's funny is I experienced that most from the females not the males (so it seems to be similar to males dissing other males for being too femme). Very rare was I harassed by a male for looking or acting male. However, I will say that even the female harassment didn't happen a lot either. The snide comment from a female was few and far between and it often had to do more with question like, "why would you want to look like a boy?" It wasn't an all out verbal assault or physical confrontation.

When I was in art  school and working in the music industry I often did pass as male to those who didn't know me. And I was able to just be myself and no one really looked twice. When I got out of that "element" though, I did have some other dudes call me a ->-bleeped-<- and things like that (but like I said it was rare - I can only think of 2 times). I was an adult by that point though and that sort of childish behavior didn't really phase me. Also, I am one to avoid physical confrontation and I have a good sense of what real threats and dangerous situations are and I like to avoid them before they even become a dangerous situation.

I think the stereotypical male has picked up somewhere along the line that they must uphold their "manliness" at all costs. To me though, to be a man means other things - and one of them is having the confidence to be yourself in spite of what everyone else is doing.

[Adio]

I feel like it's best to compromise, in my situation.  I still have some interests that some others may consider effeminate, mostly the entertainment I enjoy like musicals, plays, etc.  So I'm not as open about that sort of thing and generally keep those interests to myself.  No doubt some of my mannerisms are effeminate, I was raised as a girl!  I can't change everything about myself, nor do I want to.  None of it has affected my "passing", so I don't really care about it.

@Fionabell:  I've gotta say...that's really heteronormative and sad, to be honest with you.  Perhaps those were your experiences or a generational/cultural difference, but not all men are like that.  I'm not sure why this man/these men in your world never experience affection beyond his female SO, seem to expect others to support them, live a bohemian lifestyle, stay at uni for an extended period of time, work at a soul-crushing job, and be stressed all the time.  Thankfully this doesn't seem to be most people's reality; it's certainly not mine.  I can't figure out whether you are saying trans men discuss topics like those you listed or have those thoughts, or something else entirely. 

[JohnAlex]

For my mental well-being, for me it is most important to be accepted by society as male.  But I'm okay even if that's a very feminine, gay male.

[cookiekangaroo]

Living in the south, I have to change my mannerism to be more masculine just to get by. I pass in every way except the way I sometimes act/talk. so I have to work at breaking myself of habits ingrained into my brain at a young age, and it's hard...but necessary. I hate having those feminine attributes anyway, so it's okay.

[eli77]

I've sort of seen this on both sides, having gone from presenting as an androgynous male to presenting as an androgynous female. It doesn't seem wildly different, at least in my middle class, urban, progressive environment. I used to get flack for not being masculine enough, now I get flack for not being feminine enough. I think I do get a little more flex now, but mainly because I make a pretty girl. Attractiveness gives you a bit of a margin because people tend to associate masculinity with ugliness for women (inaccurately, but that's the stereotype). Whereas being a pretty boy was just one more sign of effeminacy.

I would have been willing to sacrifice some of my style and personality if it was necessary to be perceived as female. But it wasn't, so I just accept the comments I get for being andro. In some ways it amuses me. My best friend tells me I'm ->-bleeped-<-ing with him, as my hair gets progressively shorter and my style gets less feminine. I prefer to think of it as "educating."

I think it would be some kind of awful to have to suppress bits of yourself post-transition. Like trading one mask for another.

[anibioman]

C) ive gotten rid of all of my fem mannerisms even the  slightly fem ones i dont mind; sitting with my foot on the opposite knee. i have a high voice and i would love to change that but i currently cant. i have fem hobbies like cooking, baking, and art which i will never do. i dont look very feminine which is good for passing. Cis dudes who see me as a guy make fun of my voice and minor things.

[Paul]

For my mental well-being, for me it is most important to be accepted by society as male.  But I'm okay even if that's a very feminine, gay male.

That's how I feel.  I've become more aware of my mannerisms and how some of them may be considered feminine or there's an auto judgement that I may be a gay male, but I'm okay with that because they're still seeing me as male. 

[Mr.Rainey]

Just be yourself there is a dude in my metal shop that wears a pink hoodie. This dude even has pink filters on his respirator because he like pink. Some of the other guys poke fun at him but they aren't mean to him about it.

[dmx]

Is it more important to be:
A) Accepted by society as male (and therefore treated as such) at all costs
B) Be yourself at all costs
C) or are you willing to change some things (if so, give reasons) but not others?

Discuss.

B. The point of transition is to become yourself, not necessarily to become the opposite sex (although that is the means of achieving it).

[Ryno]

I'm pre-T right now and sort of in a genderqueer phase so once I start T I might change. But for now, I have very little desire to fit in the all-male world and be seen purely as a typical guy. I can't do it. I'm naturally more comfortable interacting with women and queers. And I'm sure people at work have questioned that. I'm not too concerned about people knowing I'm trans except for the safety of my roommate - if I lived alone, I'd probably be out. I almost feel more safe that way. I'm always been so open about being a member of the LGBT community that it feels so weird and boring trying to fit into the role of a white, heterosexual male. There is something hugely queer about me and it's just really weird holding that back. I've never been one to bounce around and shove it in people's faces (except at Pride and among a group of other LGBT friends) but I've also never been one to hide it, until I started passing as male.