Acting Female

[Alainaluvsu]

Depends on how close someone is. From a distance "normal" features aren't visible but posture/how they walk and carry themselves is. FFS and perfect skin isn't going to matter 75 feet away.

I cannot begin to tell you how true this is. I've passed as female in the dark while presenting male due to posture, word selection, walk, etc. I cannot count the number of times I've seen men checking me out from a distance, and the closer I get, their face turns to dissappointed mush, or how people will open a door for me from a distance and their smile turns into an eyeroll once I get close enough. I've even been approached by guys in straight clubs while presenting male. I've even been ma'amed from directly behind in grocery stores, and from 15-20' by women facing me. Of course being 5'4" and narrow in the shoulders helps with this, but posture can destroy you.

Shoulders back and relaxed, head high, 1 foot in front of the other girls. It makes a world of difference.

[Tori]

I think this clears up your opinion, but if somebody states "we act 99.9% of the time" that tends to be taken as "we pretend to be somebody we're not 99.9% of the time". To me, there are two main definitions of acting - that is to do an action, and the other is to play a role of somebody who is not yourself. I think it's important to make this distinction before anyone else quotes Shakespeare saying "The world is but a stage" etc.

Sometimes we act different in different situations - are we not being ourselves in each of them? Perhaps they are all part of ourselves - the different facets of one person at work, as a parent, as a friend, as a partner. The nebulous concept of "true self" and acting as yourself can become highly subjective and vague - and is it just a binary concept? Are we acting as our true selves or NOT acting as our true selves? Or can we sometimes be in between that? I think that it is possible.

If we take the definition of "acting" as doing an action, and being ourselves as also an "act", then in a way, it is a self-evident statement, because if we do not act, then we are doing nothing - we are inACTive.

I see how the word 'act' can cause problems.

One of the first lessons in actor training is learning the definition of the word 'act'.

To a trained actor, acting = doing/being. To much of the audience, acting means pretending. This is why they are in the seats and I am on the stage doing the things my character would do. The audience pretends. They suspend their disbelief and go for a ride. I act.

So, in hindsight, I see why 'act' can be a tricky word.

[Tori]

Seems for some people things like this and voice have no impact on passing, only major amounts of surgery do?  I don't get it..

Exactly. Behavior that is perceived female is at least as important as a face that through surgery, looks female. Neither is required... and one is much less invasive/expensive than the other. I think many MtF women who wish to pass would save a lot of money and have better esteem if they focus more on the changes they can control.

[Asfsd4214]

So, let me steer this back on topic...

One thing which I think can out a MTF who wishes to pass is posture.

Everybody's posture is different but there are postures that say male and postures that say female.

I have trouble thinking hormones change posture. Clothing can change posture in some ways (heals and corsets... short skirts). Seems to me good female posture requires a bit of conscious thought or effort... no?

What experience in this does anybody have?

Also shoulders. Men keep their shoulders much higher than women. This is not just musculature but that is part of it. I imagine as muscle mass decreases the shoulders will settle a bit but without a slight change in posture a MTF may still carry their shoulders like a guy.

Thoughts?

How 'bout walking. A CIS woman's hips are different so they walk differently than most men. Men can walk like women, and frankly it is more healthy, but men tend to walk each step a bit like a duck to get their musculature behind each step.

Has anybody noticed this and/or done anything about it?

I thought I had given my views on your questions, but nevertheless.

In my experience, posture makes no difference in if you are read as male or female, I see it purely as a personality attribute, a weak one at that.

I have not noticed how someone carries their shoulders as making any difference either, again, weak personality attribute.

As for walking, some men walk different to most women. But I have not noticed any significant enough difference in the majority of men or women to feel it's much more than a personality attribute that is unreliable and not used as a way to identify someones gender.

As I said, if you got Obama to walk, carry his shoulders and use a feminine posture, or the reverse in most any women. Or for that matter, even very androgynous people, I don't think it changes how they're ultimately read. I can't speak for everyone, but my brain read's peoples gender based primarily on the sound of their voice, when other cues are inconclusive. Next to that in importance would be face, then body size and shape.

[Asfsd4214]

If you want to know the hard truth of my opinion...

I believe that a very large proportion of the transgender population believes in controllable attributes like posture, because they are not passing with less controllable ones.

And again for one of those disclaimers you enjoy, I am not talking about you in particular, I don't know you or what you look like.

But what we want unfortunately doesn't change reality. I wish the reality was that everyone was happy, I wish that everyone could be who they are without fear of discrimination or prejudice. I wish I didn't have multiple sclerosis, I wish I wasn't transgender, I wish the government would stop interfering and regulating in matters I feel they have no moral right to interfere in. I wish bad things didn't happen to good people, and I wish good people didn't feel compelled to do bad things.

I wish this forum would embrace the concept of harm reduction and change its policies regarding self medication.

Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world, virtually none of those things are the way I wish they were, and unfortunately some people don't pass.

My belief is that hormones and voice are the number one controllable influence in a persons passability. And I don't believe the 'way' you speak, the words you use, the way you walk, or any of that, has any appreciable influence. My belief is if you put a cisman in a dress, give them long hair, tell them to walk feminine, and put make up on them, then most people may well refer to them as female. Especially people who's jobs depend on customer satisfaction. But those people are humoring them. They are doing that because they don't want to offend them, start a fight, loose their jobs, believe in their right to identify however they want, etc. But ultimately the majority of people see this cisman as a male wanting to be identified as a female, not as a female.

I believe this because I know a lot of androgynous looking people and I know how my brain works in this regard. And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe most people would see the aforementioned cismale as biologically female, but personally I doubt it.

Unfortunately in life, sometimes things really suck and there's nothing we can do to change them.

Accept the things we can't change, change the things we can, and know the difference.

I'm tempted to not even post this, and I hope nobody is hurt if I do. If someone gains comfort in something I don't ultimately believe is true (religion), then who am I to change their mind?

[Stephe]

I believe this because I know a lot of androgynous looking people and I know how my brain works in this regard. And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way.

You can't assume that.

Again my example: this woman I know who is VERY passable visually, has a decent voice, has been on hormone for 6+ years and is post op can be clocked from 50 feet away JUST from how she carries herself. She stands like a guy, walks VERY masculine etc. Maybe it's because her body still shows some manliness that her posture stands out so much? IDK exactly what it is but is just SCREAMS "I'm male" when you see her from a distance. This isn't something that is hard or complex to fix.

I don't think things like posture and ones attitude are important just because "someone isn't passing with less controllable ones". MANY people on these forums seem to believe "If I look female in a head shot, I WILL pass so give me FFS!! Then I'm all done, no effort required on my part" when there is a lot more to it than this. The above example proves to me there is more than just someone looking female to all of this.

BTW I don't wish I wasn't transgender, one more thing you can't assume everyone feels the same way on.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but your post was written based on "I am right and you are wrong, end of argument" style. Life just isn't that simple.

[Asfsd4214]

You can't assume that.

Again my example: this woman I know who is VERY passable visually, has a decent voice, has been on hormone for 6+ years and is post op can be clocked from 50 feet away JUST from how she carries herself. She stands like a guy, walks VERY masculine etc. Maybe it's because her body still shows some manliness that her posture stands out so much? IDK exactly what it is but is just SCREAMS "I'm male" when you see her from a distance. This isn't something that is hard or complex to fix.

I don't think things like posture and ones attitude are important just because "someone isn't passing with less controllable ones". MANY people on these forums seem to believe "If I look female in a head shot, I WILL pass so give me FFS!! Then I'm all done, no effort required on my part" when there is a lot more to it than this. The above example proves to me there is more than just someone looking female to all of this.

BTW I don't wish I wasn't transgender, one more thing you can't assume everyone feels the same way on.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but your post was written based on "I am right and you are wrong, end of argument" style. Life just isn't that simple.

I didn't assume everyone feels that way, you assumed that I assumed that.

Furthermore, I CAN in fact assume that other people feel the way I do when all the information I have leads me to that conclusion. It's an assumption, by its very nature it can be wrong, it is the best answer with the information currently available to me.

I have said from my very first post that these were my opinions, I outright said I could be wrong.

EDIT: Actually I will say one thing, posts like yours are exactly why I believe that people like yourself are in willful denial. I have tried at EVERY point in this thread to make it known that these are my opinions that CAN be wrong, and that I am only giving my views and the ways I formed them. And STILL someone has the audacity to go "wha wha wha I don't agree with you which means you're forcing your opinions on me". So well done reinforcing my viewpoint, nice job breaking it hero. 

[Tori]

Thank you Asfsd for your thoughtful reply. You clearly have reasons for feeling the way you do and who am I to disagree? You feel the way you feel. I am neither offended nor surprised.

It is OK for us to disagree. It does not make me feel less of you.

I am familiar with changing my posture and it does give results... but posture alone will not change how everybody sees you. It can help from a distance as others have said.

Gesture also helps.

So does voice.

So does wardrobe and make-up.

These are all skills of a trained actor.

I often have people who don't recognize me after a show, because I am no longer playing the part they knew me as. These things do make a difference for me.

Drag Queens are another great example (no hormones, no surgery, just a lavish act... yes, most Drag Queens are intentionally over the top (they can go BEYOND passing), but it can alter people's perception in a positive way).

[Asfsd4214]

Thank you Asfsd for your thoughtful reply. You clearly have reasons for feeling the way you do and who am I to disagree? You feel the way you feel. I am neither offended nor surprised.

It is OK for us to disagree. It does not make me feel less of you.

I appreciate that, I'm happy to agree to disagee.

[Stephe]

I didn't assume everyone feels that way, you assumed that I assumed that.

Uh well you said "And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way." I don't think it's an assumption you feel this way given this is what you said.

I have tried at EVERY point in this thread to make it known that these are my opinions that CAN be wrong, and that I am only giving my views and the ways I formed them.

You may think this is how your message come across to other people, to me they sound like "I have studied this and I am right".

You can believe that these admittedly small clues are meaningless, but I've seen the opposite in practice.

[Alainaluvsu]

You can believe that these admittedly small clues are meaningless, but I've seen the opposite in practice.

I have too.. I've posted a current pic of me in male form and .. I think we can all agree I would never be taken as female in a brightly lit environment while standing right in front of me with no makeup or anything. However every clue I've seen, posture matters as people have identified me as female from afar, even though I am in male form.

There's a TG reality show that was shot in Britain, "My Transsexual Summer". The girl named Karen is a perfect example of how posture will destroy your passability. Granted, she didn't pass well in the face or the voice dept, but if you've seen her walk or stand, you would understand that poor posture and walking will kill any chance that you will pass to others, especially when your body doesn't really match a very feminine build.

[Asfsd4214]

Uh well you said "And I can only assume most people perceive it the same way." I don't think it's an assumption you feel this way given this is what you said.

You may think this is how your message come across to other people, to me they sound like "I have studied this and I am right".

You can believe that these admittedly small clues are meaningless, but I've seen the opposite in practice.

Allow me to clarify, when I said "you assumed I assumed that",  I was referring to your comment that I assume everyone thinks it sucks being trans, not that I assume other people read gender as I do.

I believe it sounded like "I have studied this and I am right" to you, because you took it personally and choose to ignore the, by my count, about 6 times in nearly every post I've made this thread where I have stated that this is purely my opinion.

It's laughable to me that you would assert that I am forcing my views on to anyone. Go back and read my posts.

You have seen the opposite in practice as per your interpretation. I have seen my views in practice in my interpretation of events. For all I know, your friend may be 6'4 and built like a tank, and their voice may be masculine but not to your ears as your mine perceives it. I don't know for sure one way or the other, but your anecdote doesn't really say anything to me one way or the other.

[Asfsd4214]

The girl named Karen is a perfect example of how posture will destroy your passability. Granted, she didn't pass well in the face or the voice dept, but if you've seen her walk or stand, you would understand that poor posture and walking will kill any chance that you will pass to others, especially when your body doesn't really match a very feminine build.

I don't know why I'm even repeating this, nobody has addressed it in my prior posts and likely will ignore it in this one too.

But again I ask... if you took a cisfemale, and had them walk and move like a man, do you seriously believe they would be read as male?

In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional.

[Alainaluvsu]

I don't know why I'm even repeating this, nobody has addressed it in my prior posts and likely will ignore it in this one too.

But again I ask... if you took a cisfemale, and had them walk and move like a man, do you seriously believe they would be read as male?

In my opinion, not that me saying that gets noticed either... I think that's delusional.

I noticed. I try to be as fair as possible.

And you have a good point. I think if you took some cisfemales, yes they'd get read as a male. Not every cisfemale is 5'4" and less than 140 with a small frame. At the same time, I am, and I've never been taken as a female.. ever... until I started changing my walk, grew my hair out, and not pushing my shoulders level with my chin.

And if I could ask a favor? I know it can be frustrating to have your point ignored over and over, however I'm not the type to do so. Please do not assume I will unless I actually do

[Asfsd4214]

Two points

One is people WILL humor you if they think you're trying to portray yourself as one gender even if they read you as another.
The other is a correlation is not in itself a causation.

What happens when you're sitting down somewhere, not moving, what are you read as then? Unknown? Female until you get up and walk?

I have changed my interpretation of someones gender based on a glance based on their voice, and based on their face.

NEVER have I changed my viewpoint because of how they walk or thinking "women don't talk like that".

I just don't believe that's how society works in this regard.

[Alainaluvsu]

Fair enough points, but I'm sure there are a few cis women out there that walk / talk etc like a male and are read as a male even if they're wanting to be seen as female.

When I'm sitting down? IDK I don't really pay attention when I'm driving, and that's almost the only time I'm sitting down. I have been maamed at a fast food restaurant while my head was down as I was eating. When you're sitting, then it's more about your body shape and hair style if your face is not viewable, so IDT that's really what we're talking about?

As far as trying to humor me? I personally have no experience with that, as I've had zero life experience whatsoever. However, maybe you have a point, but I think the real test is when women share details about certain things, or men start basically ignoring any point you're trying to make. The later might not be reasonable, as men don't take me seriously at work anyways

When I say posture etc etc matter, I'm basically refering to those who may be far from the extremely easily identifiable female. There's plenty of cisgendered women that fall into this category and I'm sure posture etc will help. I seriously doubt there is a large percentage of TS that can really spare to not have correct posure if people want to seriously take them as female.

[Asfsd4214]

Fair enough points, but I'm sure there are a few cis women out there that walk / talk etc like a male and are read as a male even if they're wanting to be seen as female.

When I'm sitting down? IDK I don't really pay attention when I'm driving, and that's almost the only time I'm sitting down. I have been maamed at a fast food restaurant while my head was down as I was eating. When you're sitting, then it's more about your body shape and hair style if your face is not viewable, so IDT that's really what we're talking about?

As far as trying to humor me? I personally have no experience with that, as I've had zero life experience whatsoever. However, maybe you have a point, but I think the real test is when women share details about certain things, or men start basically ignoring any point you're trying to make. The later might not be reasonable, as men don't take me seriously at work anyways

When I say posture etc etc matter, I'm basically refering to those who may be far from the extremely easily identifiable female. There's plenty of cisgendered women that fall into this category and I'm sure posture etc will help. I seriously doubt there is a large percentage of TS that can really spare to not have correct posure if people want to seriously take them as female.

Even if that's true, it doesn't change anything.

If you have one way of reading cisgender people and another for transgender people, you have a double standard.
Cispeople don't have one for one and another for the other, they read everyone the same way because by and large they don't know about transgender issues.

I'm assuming passing is passing to people who are cis, not other trans people with different ways of reading people.

If you are so borderline than the way you walk makes a difference, I personally wouldn't consider that passing. But again, just my viewpoint.

[Tori]

I think you are saying much the same thing as others in this thread.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that posture alone = passing.

Like I said earlier you don't have to get 100% on a quiz in order to pass you just have to get enough things right to not fail.

There are many things people do in order to pass. Ironically, SRS is one of the least important things... unless you are a nudist. FFS, voice therapy, self-esteem, hormones, feminine glasses, hair (body, face, scalp), attire, and yes, posture... are all things which can help tip the balance from failure to passing.

To some, passing is not important, to others it is a life goal.

[Asfsd4214]

I think you are saying much the same thing as others in this thread.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that posture alone = passing.

Like I said earlier you don't have to get 100% on a quiz in order to pass you just have to get enough things right to not fail.

There are many things people do in order to pass. Ironically, SRS is one of the least important things... unless you are a nudist. FFS, voice therapy, self-esteem, hormones, feminine glasses, hair (body, face, scalp), attire, and yes, posture... are all things which can help tip the balance from failure to passing.

To some, passing is not important, to others it is a life goal.

If it's not important it's not important, I don't think I ever said it 'has' to be important to everyone.

Self-esteem especially and all of the "passing is mental" philosophy is something I very much don't agree with, for the same reasons I've given before.

[Tori]

Your argument seems to lack an example of what you DO think helps someone pass.

Thus, your posts sound a little negative... because I don't recall you actually agreeing with anybody's post in here. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to offer suggestions... it just makes it hard to understand where you are coming from. You have made it abundantly clear what you DON'T think. It can therefore be very hard trying to read between your lines.

I get the impression you may not think anything helps, or that passing is not particularly important to you. This is fine... it just stunts the discussion.

Perhaps you have offered suggestions, but your negations have been so resonant, I have trouble recalling them.