I have to choose between Dr. Spiegel and Dr. Z in like a month - help me!

[sysm29]

I am having my FFS soon and I need some help and some advice from my trans sisters.

I went to the First Event conference in Boston and I met with three surgeons.  Here is a recap of the consultations:

Dr. Zukowski- The first surgeon I met.  I walked in and he seemed really nice but then he got a phone call and it sounded like the woman on the other end was unhappy.  I've heard stories about this doctor and I tried to keep an open mind.  I was a little nervous going in to see him.  I sat a little bit aways from him on the couch.  His assessment of my face was that I would be a very beautiful woman and that I had the potential to be "lethal."  He said let's go over to the mirror and I went over there and he took a closer look at my face.  We both understood that I needed "the works," which is basically everything.  His price is the most reasonable of the three doctors.  His philosophy is to use endoscopy and Dr. Spiegel clearly does not like Dr. Z and Dr. Z is being sued by Dr. O.  This all of course makes it extremely hard to choose.  After my consultation with Dr. Z, I was very happy.  He gave me the confidence boost I needed.  I was the happiest after his consultation.  I could barely contain myself on the way to Dr. O.

Dr. O- Dr. O's office had different lighting and he had one bright light by his mirror and he was sitting down in a chair.  I sat right in front of him.  He said he has done Nobel Prize winners.  When I said I was still deliberating, he said "There's no question about it, you're coming to San Francisco."  He was a very lovely man but he never said anything about me being beautiful like the other one.  In fact he barely said much.  He quickly ran through a bunch of things I couldn't even process.  Then at the end he told me I could come to San Francisco just for chinwork, and that would run about $13,000.  He makes you go through extra hoops to get in to see him and it sounds like more work.  He is 80 and a lot of people have said he is at the end of his career.  He told me before I left that he was the only surgeon who could create a truly female chin (meaning vertical length), which for me is a HUGE HUGE deal since I have a REALLY long square cleft chin as a guy.  I left Dr. O feeling even more confused than before.

Dr. Spiegel- He had the best presentation (although to be fair I didn't see Dr. O's).  His assistant is very down to earth.  He was the most down to earth of the three surgeons, the least pretentious, the most average everyday Joe-ish... he has a dry sense of humor.  He seems like he's the most honest in a way.  He wasn't the warmest person.  Dr. Z had a better personality, but Dr. Spiegel is the closest to me.  I believe that he does excellent foreheads and beautiful eye-area work, but the rest of it worries me.  Of the handful of people I saw that had had FFS, I met two that had just gone to Dr. Spiegel and to me, they still did not pass as women.  The lower parts of their faces were just not good enough.  One in particular was a sweetheart to me the whole time.  She saved me from spending the weekend in my room crying.  She lives not that far from Dr. Spiegel's and very kindly offered to let me stay with her.

There were a few people there that had had FFS.  I definitely liked how Dr. Zukowski's patients looked.  He comes with a lot of uncertainly, particularly revolving around possible ethical issues, and he has a reputation in the community and it's very hot or cold.  You either love him to death or you don't.  People said that all of his patients look alike.  I didn't think that was true at all. 

The whole thing is so scary it makes me want to just give up.  It all seems so unbelievably impossible and yet at the same time never closer to my reach than it does now.

So now what do I do?  I have to make a choice... I'm not at all passable now.  I have very masculine features.  In fact without this surgery I will never ever look feminine or like a woman.  I'm starting out bad.  It may very well take a few surgeons before I can pass. 

So based on all of this, what do I do?

[atheuona]

I am having my FFS soon and I need some help and some advice from my trans sisters.

I went to the First Event conference in Boston and I met with three surgeons.  Here is a recap of the consultations:

Dr. Zukowski- The first surgeon I met.  I walked in and he seemed really nice but then he got a phone call and it sounded like the woman on the other end was unhappy.  I've heard stories about this doctor and I tried to keep an open mind.  I was a little nervous going in to see him.  I sat a little bit aways from him on the couch.  His assessment of my face was that I would be a very beautiful woman and that I had the potential to be "lethal."  He said let's go over to the mirror and I went over there and he took a closer look at my face.  We both understood that I needed "the works," which is basically everything.  His price is the most reasonable of the three doctors.  His philosophy is to use endoscopy and Dr. Spiegel clearly does not like Dr. Z and Dr. Z is being sued by Dr. O.  This all of course makes it extremely hard to choose.  After my consultation with Dr. Z, I was very happy.  He gave me the confidence boost I needed.  I was the happiest after his consultation.  I could barely contain myself on the way to Dr. O.

The woman on the other end might have been his daughter , it seems she interrupts his consults occasionally (or at least that's what happened with me).  Dr Z said I'd be stunning too, I think he might say that to a lot of people.  You're right about Dr Z and Dr spiegel not liking each other, Dr Z seems to say pretty much every other surgeon does crap work.

Lots of surgeons seem to say that only *they* an give you female features, I found looking at pictures of actual results to give a much better indication of what a surgeon can or can't do.

There were a few people there that had had FFS.  I definitely liked how Dr. Zukowski's patients looked.  He comes with a lot of uncertainly, particularly revolving around possible ethical issues, and he has a reputation in the community and it's very hot or cold.  You either love him to death or you don't.  People said that all of his patients look alike.  I didn't think that was true at all. 

You're right about people either loving or hating Dr Z, I found that it was difficult to look past all the love/hate to come to a proper decision.  As for all his patients looking the same, I've heard similar things said about other doctors.  I went to Dr Z and looking at photo's of other people that have been to him I can definitely see certain similarities but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if you look the same as another transwoman, just that you're happy with the work that was done.

The whole thing is so scary it makes me want to just give up.  It all seems so unbelievably impossible and yet at the same time never closer to my reach than it does now.

I know this feeling exactly, I was a quivering ball of tears on more than one occasion when I was trying to decide on a surgeon.  Have you used the ffs yahoogroup? it's got quite a few pictures of people who don't have their pictures elsewhere on the web.  It also has a lot of information that you might not find elsewhere.  Also have you thought about going outside the US for surgery? There are a number of good surgeons and you might find that you fall in love with their work and this will solve a lot of agonising on your part The ones I considered outside the US where Dr DiMaggio and Dr Supporn.

[Tristan]

i can let you know after mine on the 15th

[MacKenzie]

   Hi sysm29, we're in the same boat, i too am not 100% sure who I want to do my FFS with. That's really cool you went to a conference and got to actually talk with each of them in person, i've been talking back and fourth with 4 of the major FFS surgeons here in the US and 1 outside of the US via email and telephone.


  Dr. Z does seem a little hard to talk to and some of the stories i've been hearing about him are getting me worried. I've seen his work and some of them look really plastic and some look almost freakish. On the other hand I have also seen a few of his patients that turned out fabulous, one being my friend who recently had FFS with him. I do like his endoscopic technique too which seems to reduce the risk of permanent nerve damage and scarring.

  Dr. O is def the pioneer in this Field and has the most experience but I have to agree with you that his age scares me, i'm afraid he'd have a heart attack while i'm on the operating table all cut open...yikes! Also his prices are super high, 5-10 years ago when he was at the top of his game I would probably agree with his prices but his skills have slowly been going down hill over the years. He does really good work though especially if you need massive bone work done.

  Dr. Spiegel is who i'm leaning towards having my FFS with. I like his conservative approach to FFS, his patents look more natural IMHO. He's really good at doing minor adjustments meaning if you already have androgynous facial features then he will work with those existing features to make your face look beautiful. Although I have seen a few people on here that got the full treatment from him and they look stunning as well.


  I also contacted Dr. Mayer in Beverly hills and I have to admit his work looks really good and natural like Dr. Spiegels and he offers price reductions if you combined surgery's

  Outside of the US i've contacted Dr. DiMaggio and his staff. His work is impressive on par with Dr. O but I've heard a few horror stories about over sea's surgeons and one in particular about him and it scarres me. His staff contacted me and I could not understand what he was saying and that too worries me.

  Like antheuona said there is an FFS support group on yahoo that's supposed to have alot of before & after pictures and helpful info but you need to be a member to access it. I submitted my application for membership there like 4 months ago and still no reply.   

  Anyways when it comes down to it you have to decide who you're comfortable with.

  Good luck and keep us posted! 

[Dahlia]

     
   but I've heard a few horror stories about over sea's surgeons and one in particular about him and it scarres me. .

  Like antheuona said there is an FFS support group on yahoo
 

There's 2 horrorstories on FFS support about Dr Spiegel, including pics....totally messed up foreheads..


There's also a couple of horrorstories on FFS support about dr Z, including pics of a hideous piggynose (he seems to be 'famous' for creating too turned up piggynoses)  and there's a few horrorstories about dr O as well, including pics.

It isn't only overseas FFS surgeons you can read or hear horrorstories about...

But if an FFS surgeon messes up foreheads*terrible* on 2 patients.....no way of using him EVER for FFS.

An FFS surgeon who creates piggynoses that need an (expensive) revision and talks patients into  having hideous cheekimplants that leave their faces harsh looking and barely able to move when speaking, smiling etc............no way of using him EVER for FFS.

An FFS surgeon who is 'famous' for his cookie cutter noses....and messes up a nose real bad (collapsed alar on the right side)
and just discards her realistic complaint....no way of using him EVER for FFS.

And those are the 'big names'...

[JenJen2011]

It's ultimately your choice. No one can/will make that decision for you. Keep doing more and more research to help you make your final decision. As stated above, the FFS Yahoo Support Group is a great place to read other peoples experiences and ask questions. It's a tough decision, I know and it's one you'll have to live with for the rest of your life so make sure you choose the surgeon that's best for YOU and YOUR needs. Good luck! I wish you the best.

[MacKenzie]

There's 2 horrorstories on FFS support about Dr Spiegel, including pics....totally messed up foreheads..

   Yeah i wish they would approve my membership already because i've been waiting over 4 months now, it's ridiculous.       

[dejan160]

Hi sweetie,

I can see your situation. The facial mosaic is the hardest part to work with in cosmetic surgery. Too many nerves, blood vessels, muscles..... haematoma formation and subsequent skin lose are very possible and unpredictable outcomes. I was terrified before my FFS. Having FFS was the most important part of my transition and without it I would have never transitioned. I used to be a very successful businessman. I didn't want to lose my business. The only way was to sell it to a "woman" and to move to another country. That woman was me of course. I needed FFS that will change me, and nobody  would be able to recognize me. After a lot of research I came across DR Z. I never regretted my choice and I didn't have any complications. I am sure that every facial surgeon has complications and every FFS can result in complications. Don't rush your choice. Take your time. There must be the right doctor for you outthere. You just have to find him.

[spacecase0]

   Yeah i wish they would approve my membership already because i've been waiting over 4 months now, it's ridiculous.     

it took me 2 tries to get accepted there,
it almost sounds like time to start another yahoo group that actually pays attention to new people.

as far as who to pick,
I have looked lots into who to pick, and I am thinking that the before and after pictures as well as the % of people that turn out horrible will the deciding factor.

[MeghanAndrews]

Hi Sysm29, like Jen and others mentioned, definitely join the yahoo group. It's easy to say you don't want surgeons for x reason, but if you are determined to get it, don't let a few bad results sway you. Who do you feel most comfortable with after looking at irl results, pics, talking with the doctors, asking questions, taking $ into consideration? Whomever that provider is is the one you should choose. It's your personal decision and no one should really be able to sway you. Oh, and when you do decide, DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT go reading forums and postings within like a month of your surgery asking for opinions or anything. At that point, you've made your decision based on yuor research, given deposits and you should be comfortable. The only thing posts will do at that point is make you upset.

I'll never forget like two weeks before mine someone from here (I think they are inactive now) sent me a message telling me that my doctor was a butcher and that he might kill me at the most and will definitely ruin my face at the least. "Uh, thanks a lot for the support, loser. Way to make me feel good about going to a surgeon I spent so much time researching." All docs have good days and bad days. All those docs you mentioned have awesome results and some not so awesome results. Go with your gut, but do your research and make sure you feel comfortable Good luck! Meghan

[nacekk]

it took me 2 tries to get accepted there,
it almost sounds like time to start another yahoo group that actually pays attention to new people.

as far as who to pick,
I have looked lots into who to pick, and I am thinking that the before and after pictures as well as the % of people that turn out horrible will the deciding factor.

+1

[elle2011]

Dr. Spiegel, he does amazing chins and jaw, not sure what you've seen. But I had ffs with him a few months ago, and I pass completely

[elle2011]

Some of dr. z patients end up looking like blown up bratz dolls, its really a strange 'look'. Take it from someone who put down a surgery deposit and cancelled it once I saw his work through other women, and I ran away and had surgery with Spiegel a month later.

[dejan160]

I am sorry Elle for asking but how long after the surgery did you see the woman? I used to have a very unnatural look and a lot of swelling due to the extensive work. I used to even consider corrections. I now look totally natural.

[Jeneva]

There are always exceptions because none of the doctors are perfect.  As several others have said we can't decide for you.  You need to go with the one you trust or you will always second-guess yourself.

I will point out that while everyone talks about how much Dr. Z likes cheek implants, there are several of us that used him recently and DID not get cheek implants.  I only got asked twice and the second was only because I was adding other procedures and changing it all up.

You are welcome to dig through my thread on here or hit our website and see my FFS progress.

In the end you have to be comfortable with your choice.

[Tsallysummers]

Dr. Spiegel, he does amazing chins and jaw, not sure what you've seen. But I had ffs with him a few months ago, and I pass completely

Did you have a trachea shave also?

[JenJen2011]

Some of dr. z patients end up looking like blown up bratz dolls, its really a strange 'look'. Take it from someone who put down a surgery deposit and cancelled it once I saw his work through other women, and I ran away and had surgery with Spiegel a month later.

Totally untrue. While I understand that's your OPINION, my opinion is different. After seeing all his amazing work, that's what finally got me to choose Dr. Z. And why would the OP take it from someone who didn't have surgery with him. I on the other hand DID have surgery with him and I'm very satisfied with what I see so far.

You should really stick to speaking about your ACTUAL ffs experience. That would be more helpful instead of talking down about surgeons you didn't even have surgery with.

[MacKenzie]

  Well of course people are gonna recommend the surgeon they had surgery with, that's understandable.


  I think it all depends on the individuals needs. The OP admitted she would def need full FFS because of her manly facial features so in her case she will probably need alot of bone work done so with that said Dr. O or Dr. Z who both are aggressive in their work would probably be the best two surgeons to choose from.

Dr. Spiegel, he does amazing chins and jaw, not sure what you've seen. But I had ffs with him a few months ago, and I pass completely

  Yeah I agree with you but you also transitioned pretty young thus avoided alot of T damage so you looked pretty feminine even before surgery. There is another girl on here named Butterflyhugs and she also had surgery with Dr. Spiegel and she turned out beautiful. Like you she also looked very androgynous more towards female before her surgery so in her case Dr. Spiegel was the best option as he specializes in making women and transwomen with androgynous faces look beautiful.

Some of dr. z patients end up looking like blown up bratz dolls, its really a strange 'look'. Take it from someone who put down a surgery deposit and cancelled it once I saw his work through other women, and I ran away and had surgery with Spiegel a month later.

  LOL that made me laugh cuz I kinda agree with you that some of his patients do look rather strange but then again they probably looked pretty mannish before surgery so that's def an improvement in my book. 

  Not trying to defend Dr. Z but a friend of mine had full FFS with him recently and she looks great, although to be fair she looked really pretty before surgery but anyways she posted this pic about 1 month post-op.

  http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb407/Glossygrrlxoxo/AkL3dVvCEAEp5do.jpg

   

[atheuona]

Some of dr. z patients end up looking like blown up bratz dolls, its really a strange 'look'. Take it from someone who put down a surgery deposit and cancelled it once I saw his work through other women, and I ran away and had surgery with Spiegel a month later.

I think you really have to base it on what the starting point was.  I'm one of the people that ended with the bratz look (at least with the lips) and there really wasn't any option for me, I had fairly large lips to begin with (I don't think a lip reduction is possible?).

Before:


After:

[Joeyboo~ :3]

I think you really have to base it on what the starting point was.  I'm one of the people that ended with the bratz look (at least with the lips) and there really wasn't any option for me, I had fairly large lips to begin with (I don't think a lip reduction is possible?).

Before:


After:

I like the look of bratz lips. So you're good with me (:
I think you're gorgeous.