Androgyne and HRT

[Brightest After Dawn]

I am bigender, but I started out thinking that I was an androgyne (and they continue to let me hang around here LOL....). I'm also on a low dose HRT regimen. I want to share my experiences so that you know what you will be potentially be facing if you go this route.

My dysphoria in girl mode was driving me crazy - there is a member here that described it as a noise in her head that she could not escape, and i had the same noise as well as repetitive, incessant thoughts about girl stuff. It was GID, and it was driving me insane. Since i'm bigender the feelings switched on and off at random times as i flipped between boy mode and girl mode.

I felt results within 2-3 weeks of starting HRT. The noise and incessant thoughts stopped dead cold. The physical changes started within a few months, and they were the classic ones - fat redistribution, small boobs, etc. Those were the side effects i was willing to accept in order to get the sense of calmness that i was missing, and being bigender i didn't really mind them. And i am far more emotional now - for example, there are TV shows and movies that i simply can't watch without tearing up. The uncontrollable flip flopping between boy and girl mode became something that i have some control over now, which is nice.

The ability to father children - i've had mine and i'm past that now LOL..... but the equipment still works, sorta. It's hard to start and often stalls out. It's also become a zero emissions device if you follow my drift. That happened within 8 months. I have to warm it up now for quite a while before i hit the road. The feeling that i get is also the one described by many - a full on body experience and not just a localized sensation.

I've been told that HRT can either have the calming effect that it had on me, or it might be the thing that triggers a high speed toboggan ride toward transition, so that's something you might consider.

I like that you plan to talk with a therapist to help you sort this out.

Do you mean you didn't want too many physical changes, but wanted the calmness that HRT gave you? I think this would describe me (even noticing the fluctuations in my testosterone levels naturally, I almost feel better when they're lower, despite some negative side effects like headaches). The sense of peace was almost euphoric and I've not really felt it anything like it since before puberty. I'd be willing to put up with a lot for this to be more constant. I swear the feeling almost cured about 7 years of serious depression practically in a day.

However, I'm not on HRT right now, and the ways I'd like to change my body involve more "softening" (a lot of which can be done cosmetically; luckily I'm slender to begin with) than curves per se. More classically "androgynous", if you will.

How do you find working with your physical figure when you're in "boy mode"? Are the breasts so large you need to bind them, or can they smaller buds that can be hidden easily?

[ativan]

Just really quickly here,...

You need to know where you are starting from. Hormone levels are not the same in everyone.
For this, you're going to have to get some blood work done. Yep, gotta see a Dr. Simple blood draw.
Your potassium levels need to be in a normal range for starters, if you are going to use T blockers.
You also need total and free Testosterone levels.
You have to be healthy to start with, after all, you're going to be changing your body chemistry around somewhat.
The effects that you are going to get are going to be different at different levels, but more to the point, YMMV.
This is important! You are not going to get a drug that is specifically designed for what you want!
You're going to be using the side effects from them. So monitoring is essential, if you want to stay healthy.

True, Low Dose HRT isn't as dangerous as Full Dose HRT, but it can mess you up if it isn't done right.
Full Dose is a commitment that requires constant attention if you want to be safe.
Same with Low Dose, even if it isn't pushing the limits so to speak.
Because everyone's needs and wants are different and everyone's reactions to different side effects is different,
You're going to have to be supervised by a Dr, preferably one who is actually concerned about possible complications.
Yep, that's right. Complications. Because they can happen.
This is one of the most dangerous things about alternative methods.
Rarely will people actually know what is really happening to their body chemistry.
And if it feels good, how many of you will be tempted to take larger doses to keep that initial good feeling going?
You will feel different in most cases, which is the point of Low Dose.
If it was just physical changes you want, you're going to be disappointed.
After some time, you will become adjusted to how you feel. Again, important.
You have to remember this is really why you are going the route of Low Dose to start with. Dysphoria.
Once you have that under control, you can even start to back down on doses if you want. I did.
Most of my dysphoria is gone, enough that I can deal with the occasional bout of it.
Almost everyone will experience some physical changes, how much depends on who you are and what you want.
It will be gradual in most cases, but not always. YMMV!

If for some reason, it isn't what you thought it would be, you can stop within a few months and things will go back to where they were when you started.
After about the same amount of time it took to get where you are.
But not always.
There isn't any tried and true methods.
There isn't any tried and true methods.

All that said, you have to really want to do this, not just try it out. Because it takes time.
And as time goes by, things are going to change and there isn't any way of knowing how it's going to affect you.
It can be the thing that kicks you into Transsexual mode, it may just freak you out if you're not ready.
Which brings up the point that a gender therapist is invaluable to helping you sort out what is going to happen.

This is not over the counter cold medicine....
It's some serious stuff, treat it that way.
Treating yourself with alternative stuff is fine if you are willing to take those kinds of risks, which is what you will be doing.
You might find someone who will tell you they know how it all works, but that's just nonsense and you will find that out.
You'll be on your own and if something goes wrong, who's gonna be there to help?
Your Dr won't be of much help, because the effects of some things are out of their base of knowledge.

Just be careful, be smart. It's fine if you keep an eye on what you're doing.
But be ready to make changes that you haven't anticipated, because they happen.
You're playing around with side effects, regardless of what you use and how much.
Some really really good things can come your way. It's why it is becoming a great alternative for non-binaries.
Like everything you do, from fitness to clothes, use moderation and move slowly and carefully, think it out.

Low Dose HRT, regardless of what path you choose, and there are many, is not the same as trying out something new.
It's going to take a commitment on your part if you want it to be safe and to get the results you're looking for.
(OK, so it wasn't that quick...)
Ativan

[ativan]

How many people here are using low dose HRT with expectations of physical changes?
If so, is that the main reason for taking them?

Initially, I got into low dose for the dysphoria. I'm still there, after a few changes in my dose.
At first, I was taking a larger amount than I do now, full transition level spiro.
Since it wasn't making me 'feel' any different, I went back down to a lower dose after a month off.
I wasn't ready for the physical changes that happened, which were relatively quick for me.
Now with a very low dose of spiro and very low dose E patch, I feel about right.

Some of the 'new or newer' people here have been writing about physical changes.
And the survey is a testament to that.
I'm curious as to what your HRT regime is.
We can't talk about actual doses, and we don't for good reason.

It wasn't that long ago that low dose was almost unheard of.
Some people were very opinionated about it.
But times have changed, and so has HRT.
I'm curious to know if some of you started right off at doses with the intent of physical changes.
Lots of talk about androgynous presentations past just clothes, makeup, etc.
I think it's great, I'm all for it.

I have talked about this with my Dr, and she is a little cagey about it, the YMMV thing.
But she is at ease with it, just as she is with my low dose.
It is something that I think about doing, but not enough to gather any information.
Would it be called mid dose, medium dose,...

More importantly, what kind of safety concerns are there as compared to low and high?
Options? Like how fast of changes, how much change, etc.
Pretty big area to cover, from dysphoria to full transition.
Any difficulty with Dr's? I know mine would say go for it, but she also is collecting data, so...
Do you have a clear idea as to what changes you want, using HRT?
Or is it in a range sort of thing? Have you discussed dose's with your Dr., directly relating to this?
I know I can dig up some reliable information from the center I go to from a Dr's point of view.
But I'm curious as to what everyone who is non-binary thinks about it.
To me, the possibilities are almost endless.

Ativan

[Shantel]

I'm on the lowest dose patch of Climera and it seems to keep me perky in various places, soft skin and even a bit puffy in other places, so i'm perfectly happy after nearly killing myself on high doses of other stuff and having been on supervised doses of estrogen before that. Mentally I'm at peace with the dysphoric stuff.

[Melanie Anne]

I just had my intake appointment at the Mazzoni Center in Philadelphia this past week. They do lots of different dosages depending on what people are trying to achieve. I won't even say low dose, because that's just the beginning. Just like gender is a spectrum, there's a whole spectrum of ways they administer HRT. I was honest with them and told them what my goals and hopes were (with the understanding that YMMV) and they are very supportive. It's a busy clinic though and I don't go back for my medical appointment for another month, but this place sounds like they do exactly what a lot of you are looking for. If you're anywhere close to Philadelphia, I would recommend giving them a call.

For me personally - the biggest thing I'm hoping to get out of HRT is relief from the dysphoria. I've committed myself to going wherever HRT takes me, but at the moment I feel like I would be happy with the mental effects and minor physical changes that my wife and I can enjoy. If I end up really liking it and want to go further or if the changes force me to go further, I'm more than willing to do that, but my goal is to just have this as something that effects me and not everyone around me. To be honest, the only reason I'm not planning on a full transition is I just can't handle the idea of other people's reactions to the whole thing.

The physical changes I'm hoping for then would be, regrowth of head hair (finasteride with minoxidil), less oily skin and less acne, MUCH less body hair, more fat in hips and thighs and less on my tummy, and all around softer skin. I'm also hoping for a chest that can be kept hidden from most people and the ability to maintain erections (just being honest here). I shared all of this at my intake appointment, and they're confident they can help me achieve these goals as long as I understand there are no guarantees.

I'll post again after my next appointment and let you know what they put me on. I'll continue to post to let everyone know how it's effecting me once I get started.

I hope this helps other people - I felt a little bombarded by negativity when I first started talking about HRT without transitioning, but it seems like there are a lot of members who are looking to do just that.

[ativan]

I just had my intake appointment at the Mazzoni Center in Philadelphia this past week. They do lots of different dosages depending on what people are trying to achieve.
I hope this helps other people - I felt a little bombarded by negativity when I first started talking about HRT without transitioning, but it seems like there are a lot of members who are looking to do just that.

This is what I'm talking about. Nice to know there is a place out there for you. 

Yah, that negativity was pretty prevalent not that long ago, but I think most people get what it is, now.
It's that acceptance that is making these changes possible with HRT.
There does seem to be more and more people looking at it for their own reasons.
It's become pretty matter of fact at the center I started at a few years ago.
A world that might become as matter of fact about gender would be pretty nice, too.
Ativan

[Shantel]

This is what I'm talking about. Nice to know there is a place out there for you. 

Yah, that negativity was pretty prevalent not that long ago, but I think most people get what it is, now.
It's that acceptance that is making these changes possible with HRT.
There does seem to be more and more people looking at it for their own reasons.
It's become pretty matter of fact at the center I started at a few years ago.
A world that might become as matter of fact about gender would be pretty nice, too.
Ativan

Yup, I ran into a mountain of negativity once I made it clear that I wasn't going to go for SRS. It was anywhere from Whaaaaat?  to ridicule and outrage from the mean girls of the transgender society! Fortunately everyone grows up eventually. 

[ativan]

Yeah, I'm not sure what happened over the last year, I avoid other places on this forum, just because of the past.
I feel kinda bad about it, I do have other friends who are fully transitioned or are planning on it.
Just not here. But maybe I should grow up about the past, also.
I really like quite a few of the Trans* people who rarely visit the forest anymore.
Maybe they have moved on, I don't know.
I think as things stand socially and even politically, Trans* people sticking together is more important than ever.
There are some very positive responses from society as a whole, and the bigots are fading away.
It's a good time for everyone to just present as they wish, ignore the radical fringe right and just be.
The infighting kind of stuff doesn't help, I think we all have a better realization that we need to pull together.
I'm actually pretty happy with way things have been going for everyone, but especially the non-binary people.
Maybe I'll go exploring here again, someday. Like I said, there are people who I miss who are very good people.
Meanwhile, back at the secret hideout...
Ativan

[DrillQuip]

Yup, I ran into a mountain of negativity once I made it clear that I wasn't going to go for SRS. It was anywhere from Whaaaaat?  to ridicule and outrage from the mean girls of the transgender society! Fortunately everyone grows up eventually. 

That's interesting because just the other day I was watching a documentary on transgender people and they had a non binary trans woman on there. She got hrt and top surgery but did not want lower surgery to remove her penis. She was extremely proud of her mixed physic, not just happy with it. After this woman was done explaining how happy she was with her body they cut to a scene where a therapist explained (rather uncomfortably imho) that some people dont get lower surgery because of complications and money issues and, etc etc... Like she was making up excuses on the behalf of this transwoman who was perfectly happy with her body! I was actually mad about this, cause I was sitting there thinking "Oh thank god. Finally a trans* documentary where it's not all focused on binary trans people who are either ftm or mtf only and have the typical narrative. Here's a non binary who loves being a "hybrid" as she herself put it." And then some therapist twiddles her thumbs and starts explaining away this womans pride as if it were nonsense. At least thats how I saw it.

I love mixed gender expression and I feel at home around other people who dont have to/want to go through a full transition. Even better when people strive for a mixed presentation. I hate prejudice against non binary trans* people within the trans community, its horrifying to me.

[Shana A]

Yeah, I'm not sure what happened over the last year, I avoid other places on this forum, just because of the past.
I feel kinda bad about it, I do have other friends who are fully transitioned or are planning on it.
Just not here. But maybe I should grow up about the past, also.
I really like quite a few of the Trans* people who rarely visit the forest anymore.
Maybe they have moved on, I don't know.

I think you'll find less animosity toward non-binaries in the rest of the site now. Mods do a great job of nuking threads or posts where anyone on the trans continuum is bashed.

Shana

[Shantel]

That's interesting because just the other day I was watching a documentary on transgender people and they had a non binary trans woman on there. She got hrt and top surgery but did not want lower surgery to remove her penis. She was extremely proud of her mixed physic, not just happy with it. After this woman was done explaining how happy she was with her body they cut to a scene where a therapist explained (rather uncomfortably imho) that some people dont get lower surgery because of complications and money issues and, etc etc... Like she was making up excuses on the behalf of this transwoman who was perfectly happy with her body! I was actually mad about this, cause I was sitting there thinking "Oh thank god. Finally a trans* documentary where it's not all focused on binary trans people who are either ftm or mtf only and have the typical narrative. Here's a non binary who loves being a "hybrid" as she herself put it." And then some therapist twiddles her thumbs and starts explaining away this womans pride as if it were nonsense. At least thats how I saw it.

I love mixed gender expression and I feel at home around other people who dont have to/want to go through a full transition. Even better when people strive for a mixed presentation. I hate prejudice against non binary trans* people within the trans community, its horrifying to me.

Invariably it all comes down to money and control. The Benjamin Standard of Care made it mandatory that people had to pay out a small fortune to therapists and jump through a lot of hoops just to get on HRT and live for a year dressed in the appropriate gender before being considered eligible for SRS which the transitioner has been led to believe that she hasn't fully arrived until that process is complete. It's always been about money and control as therapists and surgeons specializing in this field made a fortune on the backs of many who even went as far as to become sex workers to be able to afford it.

[Shantel]

Yeah, I'm not sure what happened over the last year, I avoid other places on this forum, just because of the past.
I feel kinda bad about it, I do have other friends who are fully transitioned or are planning on it.
Just not here. But maybe I should grow up about the past, also.
I really like quite a few of the Trans* people who rarely visit the forest anymore.
Maybe they have moved on, I don't know.
I think as things stand socially and even politically, Trans* people sticking together is more important than ever.
There are some very positive responses from society as a whole, and the bigots are fading away.
It's a good time for everyone to just present as they wish, ignore the radical fringe right and just be.
The infighting kind of stuff doesn't help, I think we all have a better realization that we need to pull together.
I'm actually pretty happy with way things have been going for everyone, but especially the non-binary people.
Maybe I'll go exploring here again, someday. Like I said, there are people who I miss who are very good people.
Meanwhile, back at the secret hideout...
Ativan

Ativan,
    Time to come out of the forest my friend, your posts are usually terrific, articulate and well thought out. The rest of the folks on Susan's have been missing out on some great commentaries that many could benefit from.

[ativan]

Ativan,
    Time to come out of the forest my friend, your posts are usually terrific, articulate and well thought out. The rest of the folks on Susan's have been missing out on some great commentaries that many could benefit from.

Thank you!  But there are reasons for me to be content with staying here, for now. 

Z, I have noticed that the moderation in this section has become very accepting.
It's done very well. Things are a lot more open than they used to be.
I credit the administration for that. I'm pretty happy about how things are, now.
As new people join the forum, they bring a fresh perspective, a good one.
Ativan

[ativan]

Just realized I derailed the crap out of this thread!

OK, meanwhile, back at the Androgyne HRT Ranch...

It sounds like I'm going to have to talk to my Dr about dose's.
It's all so very cool that people are taking doses that will put them physically where they want to be.
It's really encouraging to know that the medical profession is good with this. 
And there is less of this:
I am curious about getting to where you want to be and then maintaining that.
There must be as many ways of doing that as there are doing a low dose for dysphoria.
Ativan

[Shantel]

Just realized I derailed the crap out of this thread!

OK, meanwhile, back at the Androgyne HRT Ranch...

It sounds like I'm going to have to talk to my Dr about dose's.
It's all so very cool that people are taking doses that will put them physically where they want to be.
It's really encouraging to know that the medical profession is good with this. 
And there is less of this:
I am curious about getting to where you want to be and then maintaining that.
There must be as many ways of doing that as there are doing a low dose for dysphoria.
Ativan

Low doses are always a good starting point to see how your body will react in terms of tolerance, checking testosterone and estrogen levels are then determined by follow-up blood draws and lab results. At that point a discussion with the doctor ensues to emphasize how far you want to take it and where you want to go with it in terms of feminization, at that time if all is well then the doctor should see fit to increase the dosages to reach your goal. Once you are there then it's normal to drop back down to a low dose level for ongoing maintenance and continued good health.

[helen2010]

Ativan
I have been on low dose hrt for 18 months. Dr Hayes (Sydney, Australia) has been using this therapy for GID patients for a number of years.   Once a base line (blood, hormone levels etc) and objectives were established we have been adjusting the meds on a quarterly basis.
While being mid 50's had led me to expect minimal physical change, YMMV proved to be true for me and changes moved very quickly indeed.  I derived the rich emotional benefits and the GID stopped cold. Emotionally, apart what I refer to as 'experiencing some fluffy thinking' I was in a really great place, but my body kept changing.   I admit that I felt really good on higher dosages but the lower dosages still took me to a much better emotional place.  To slow things down I took the lowest dosages.
However even with the lowest combinations of meds my body had a mind of its own!  The muscle loss, movement of body fat, skin, hair and facial changes were welcomed but rapid breast growth threw me.   In the end I felt I had to choose between a bilateral breast reduction (I had a full C cup, and they were still growing rapidly) and my preferred emotional state. 
Post the breast reduction I am still on low dose hrt but I have bought more time (perhaps 2 to 5 years).  When analysing my motives, fears etc like so many things in life I can't be completely sure of my truth.  While I know that I wasn't ready for the extent and pace of all of the physical changes I am not sure if this was driven by plain denial if self/fear, situational (family, friends, career etc) factors or whether I am excessively cautious.  I have come out to a small number of friends who have been supportive and surprised but non-judgemental.   My wife was the least supportive and said that she "will not stay (with me) if there is a full transition" but says she 'supports' me in doing what I need to do. 
Internally I feel female but suspect that I will be most happy blending and living between the traditional gender types.
This is certainly a better and richer outcome than the bleak possibility presented to me in 1988 when the so called therapist took one look at my naked body (I was 195 lbs and very athletic) and said "you could never pass so transitioning is not an option for you!"
Thankfully we have come a long way since then and we have more options available to us.   Low dose hrt and informed Doctors have helped me enrich my life and supported my life journey, no matter where it as and will take me.

[ativan]

When I started Spiro a couple years back, I started at about 4x what I take now.
It was quite the emotional change, the rage stopped cold.
I upped the dose to 8x and my body reacted pretty fast.
That was the safe upper limit my Dr uses, so basically full dose.
I freaked out at first, stopped completely for about a month, then went to 2x.
I was good with it, but I wanted to see if lower would work.
So I started at the dose I'm on now, and I started a low dose E patch.
My boobs reacted right away, but then pretty much slowed to a stop.
Hair growth slowed way down back at the 8x dose and has stayed there.
I have lost about half my body hair, and growth is very slow.
But other than that, I don't see much change.

I've gone back and forth in my thinking about where to go from here.
Right now I'm OK with presenting very much male. Pretty masculine looking.
But I am trying to lose weight and my muscle mass is lower, but I haven't worked out for the last 9 months.
I want to lose what little fat I have, and then start back on just a fitness workout routine.
Then I'll put some fat weight back on and hopefully it will go to my hips more.
Boobs? By the Mother and Sisters scale, I would probably end up with a C cup easily.
But I don't think I'll want to go that far. From behind I get mistaken for a female half the time.
Having hair past the middle of my back I'm sure is most of it.
I'm told that my body movements are pretty feminine, also.
Stopped hiding them and have 'unlearned' the male movements I worked so hard to have growing up.
Had I known back then, had the world been as it is now, I probably would have done a full transition.
Instead, I went totally into that hyper-masculine mode.
*Sorry world for the mean bastard I turned into. Nobody should have to go through what I put myself through.

It is really encouraging to hear about what some of you have done or are planning.
Had that been an option when I was young, I'd be so damn Androgynous looking...
But I'm comfy with where I am for the moment.
We'll see what comes along, I'm mentally in a good place and that's the most important thing there is for me.
I'm taken care of by some of the best gender specialists in this country.
Things are good, for now.
Ativan

[Eva Marie]

It's been awhile since i posted in the forest, although I have been keeping an eye on what's happening here. This seemed like a good place to give an update on my low dose HRT experience.

In a word, my life has returned to a "normal" boy mode - I no longer have severe GID or dysphoria episodes... at all. Smooth sailing, quite boring actually.

I am bigender, and girl mode comes very gently these days, instead of the heated rush she used to show up in. I can choose when and where i want to present en femme now, instead of being driven into presenting with no choice. Make no mistake - she's still around and requires some care and feeding but it's nothing like where i was at before HRT.

Yes, i have some physical changes but those are minor compared to the changes I was contemplating before HRT. In the moments where she was in full control she had me convinced that I needed to go the full monte with SRS and  that a divorce with my wife was probably in the cards.

So for me, low dose HRT has been an extreme blessing.

Riven

[Shantel]

It's been awhile since i posted in the forest, although I have been keeping an eye on what's happening here. This seemed like a good place to give an update on my low dose HRT experience.

In a word, my life has returned to a "normal" boy mode - I no longer have severe GID or dysphoria episodes... at all. Smooth sailing, quite boring actually.

I am bigender, and girl mode comes very gently these days, instead of the heated rush she used to show up in. I can choose when and where i want to present en femme now, instead of being driven into presenting with no choice. Make no mistake - she's still around and requires some care and feeding but it's nothing like where i was at before HRT.

Yes, i have some physical changes but those are minor compared to the changes I was contemplating before HRT. In the moments where she was in full control she had me convinced that I needed to go the full monte with SRS and  that a divorce with my wife was probably in the cards.

So for me, low dose HRT has been an extreme blessing.

Riven

Great post! A lot of folks should read this before committing marital suicide and living a life of loneliness with regrets over lost loved ones.

[androgynoid]

The idea of HRT has taken on a lot of gravity over the past week-ish, pulling me in at an accelerating rate. I've been thinking and thinking, and bugging Caleb with my questions (hugs for you, Caleb!), and thinking some more.

And I've decided to call the clinic in my city that does informed consent HRT.

I've heard that they have a waiting list of a few months. And on top of that there are three appointments you have to attend (blood work/maybe a physical, "hormone advocate" meeting, blood work review) which could be spaced up to a few weeks apart.

So I'm going to call them and get the process started, and then have time for a few more therapy appointments before I have to make the final decision. I'd hate to decide I want to start T and then have it be up to five months off.