Androgyne and HRT

[Joann]

Amen to that!

Well spoken Ativan

[BlueSloth]

Mixing up metaphors must be contagious.  Now Ativan's doing it too.  I'm all for mixing metaphors, but not mixing them up.

I still like the forest, and I don't plan to leave. 

It's dark and stuffy in the closet and I'm tired of it, but when I tried to open the door I realized that maybe spending decades nailing it shut to protect myself wasn't such a good idea.  This is gonna be hard 

In some ways, we will never be able to function in a truly 'stealth' mode.

It'd be nice if I could look intersex, and look like I was born that way.  Technically that'd be stealth, but I wouldn't be what people expect to see, and that would kinda defeat the purpose of stealth, so... yeah.

Oh well, at least

I am not alone. None of us are. Not anymore.

  Yay!  *hugs everybody*  Hard to remember that when I'm out in the big scary world by myself, though.

[ativan]

Mixing up metaphors must be contagious.  Now Ativan's doing it too.  I'm all for mixing metaphors, but not mixing them up.
I still like the forest, and I don't plan to leave. 
It's dark and stuffy in the closet and I'm tired of it, but when I tried to open the door I realized that maybe spending decades nailing it shut to protect myself wasn't such a good idea.

The closet: http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/dvd/disney/LWW/LWW4.jpg
The forest: http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Narnia-Map-the-chronicles-of-narnia-1162509_1920_1448.jpg
Leaving the door nailed shut: http://static.thecia.com.au/reviews/c/chronicles-of-narnia-the-lion-the-witch-and-the-wardrobe-11.jpg
We are not alone: http://screencrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/narniacast.jpg
Sometimes I hide: http://www.coverdude.com/covers/david-arnold-the-chronicles-of-narnia-the-v-inside-cover-64463.jpg
Because days can be like this: http://www.talkmovie.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/The-Chronicles-of-Narnia-Prince-Caspian5.jpg
But It can be like this: http://i2.listal.com/image/305869/600full-the-chronicles-of-narnia%253A-prince-caspian-photo.jpg
In the end: http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30000000/Susan-Wallpaper-the-chronicles-of-narnia-30051499-1280-800.png

The forest becomes a part of you, you become a part of a bigger story.
Maybe being in the closet is a way of finding the forest.

Meanwhile,: http://images.zap2it.com/images/movie-90695/the-chronicles-of-narnia-the-lion-the-witch-and-the-wardrobe-0.jpg

It's all merely perception
Ativan

[Joann]

Ok, so with introductions out of the way, I would like to ask some questions to the members of this community. Perhaps I should wait a little longer before posting my own topic, but these questions have been on my mind for months.

  I consider myself an androgyne and do not desire to completely transition. I am a biological male who identifies more with the female gender but do not want to completely abandon my male side. As such, I want to add some "femaleness" to both my mind and body.

So, my questions are concerning HRT. My hopes at this point are to begin a low-level (not full transitional level) regimen of HRT after meeting with a gender therapist. Seeing as how I have no particular aversion to my genitalia and my wife and I have a great sex life, would I be able to maintain use of my penis while on HRT? Has anyone gone down this road before? Also, my wife and I are considering another child which we would hope to accomplish prior to beginning HRT - but would a low dose mean certain sterility? If we manage to get pregnant before HRT, I would consider this more of a bonus than anything, but does that mean my wife wouldn't need to be on the pill anymore or should we still be concerned about accidental pregnancies?

My next question concerns breast growth. I've seen a lot of personal accounts from people that are a year or less into HRT and I know development doesn't stop at that point. I plan on continuing to work in male mode and I'm concerned that if I end up with a C-cup, that could be a little tricky. If I take genetics into account, my mother's side has women who are all a little larger overall and so naturally have larger breasts. My father's side has woman that are more my size overall (I'm skinny) and are pretty small breasted. I think that means I can expect to be smaller, but I would just like to hear what other people's experiences are. Maybe even some biological females could chime in to help me overcome my fears by telling me how they hide theirs.

Last question (sorry for another long post). What effects of HRT were noticed first? I think this is going to be a very subjective question but I am more interested in psychological changes and view the physical changes as a bonus. Did you start to feel different inside before noticing any physical effects? How would you describe those feelings? I think I've read where some people know right away that HRT is not right for them while others know right away that it absolutely is right for them. I've also read about people feeling a sense of calm, a more even tempered personality and just an overall better outlook on life. Is this how you would describe your experiences?

Sorry, I'm going to throw one more question out there. Discovering that I am an androgyne has already given me a lot of comfort, but I feel the need to actually "do" something about it. Just knowing in my mind isn't enough. If HRT isn't right for me, what kind of changes have you made in your lives to feel more congruent with what's in your mind?

Thank you all again for providing such a caring, open place with lots of knowledge to share.

Seems like we are on the same track. I too want low dose to hopefully give me  emotional stability. It may take me in the other direction. Since im also skinny i wouldn't mind feminizing vs being a "girly man".
I don't mind breasts but don't want to HAVE TO wear a bra.
But with my research so far unless you start HRT very early you don't get much more than A cup or less.

What if we took testosterone and estrogen together?
Maybe some of our F2M brothers could chime in...
Also wondering if i decide to pull out if i can get libido back?
Before my  whoop de doo with T, my libido was  on a scale of 1-10,
about a 3.
T combined with a alcohol due to my former heavy drinking saw libido go to  a 1 as my liver wasnt breaking down estrogen. I felt wonderful but confused why i was feeling feminine.
Omit heavy drinking and feminine n feelings fade aggression returns and libido is a 2.
Stopped taking T entirely  for a month. Now fighting  depression and generally feel dull but libido is up to a good 6. WTF...

I'm going to stay clear and get a baseline from a endo in november and start on LD E for 6 mo or so and see where i will go from there.

[luna nyan]

I really should just ask the mods for a blog so I can just blog my experiences.

I'm almost at 6 months on low dose HRT.  I'm on estradiol valerate and spironolactone, and the dosage is roughly about 1/3 to 1/2 of a full transition dose.

My personal experiences regarding the questions asked (YMMV of couse):

1. Would I be able to maintain use of my penis?
For me the answer is yes.  Production is way down though, so if you're thinking about having more children, either have the child before starting or consider sperm banking.  The reduction occurred within 2 weeks of starting spiro (week 7-8).  Even so, I would advise against not taking any precautions against pregnancy as sterility is not a sure thing on low dose.

2. What breast growth has occurred?
There is peaking/slight perkiness around the areola and my nipples have enlarged just a fraction (4mm diameter).  Both areola and nipples are more temperature sensitive, and are tender.  Slight knots forming behind, so something is happening there, albeit slowly.  Basically there's nothing really to hide at this stage as what's there can pass off as an older man's man boobs for now.

3.  What psychological changes have occurred?

For me, I feel more comfortable with myself.  There's been a partial reconnection with my emotions - I won't cry at the drop of a hat, but most certainly, I feel more emotionally involved with things now.  Workwise I actually seem to be more efficient for some strange reason.

Physical effects: some slight facial softening, skin changes, some slight fat redistribution (it's just going everywhere now rather than to the belly only), and some loss of strength/endurance.  Nothing overly major, but enough subtle changes to make me feel more comfortable in my own skin so to speak.

4.  What alternatives to HRT do I have?

Before I started HRT, I had full facial electrolysis.  That helped, but as my hairline began to recede, the dysphoria came back worse.  Perhaps a DHT blocker may be enough if that's the main thing worrying you.  Shifting the wardrobe to the androgynous side of things may be a possibility as well.

[helen2010]

Luna nyan

I am on roughly similar dosages and have, with my endo, been trying to get the balance right to keep my head in a good space.   The intent is definitely low dose hrt at this point and the focus is psychological benefit rather than physical change

1. Yes it works - slower to arouse and less fluid.  The experience is less localised and spreads throughout my body - a whole of body orgasm

2.  Breasts responded quickly - too quickly for me.  Sore and noticeably enlarged, puffy, sore, enlarged disc and sometimes a clear discharge.  However I have a big frame so although close to an A they would not be seen as very different to moons.   Much more sensitive and they love to be caressed.

3.  Psychological changes.  This is the big one.  From various dosages - spiro at 1/2 the transition dose makes me a little woolly headed.  I don't concentrate as well and I don't make decisions as rapidly as I am used to.   But the raging need to cross dress goes away leaving me confused - should I stay here or move elsewhere (in the forest or to transition)?  E at 1/2 dose gives me complete peace, richer emotion and makes me more fully sensate.  Between the spiro and the E (at varying dosages but never more than 1/2 the transition dose, I am gaining fat in the hips, upper thighs and lower abdomen.  Definitely losing some strength.  Surprisingly while I see the changes none seem to have been noticeable to others - perhaps the earlier shock of full FFS has blinded them to the more subtle changes that occurring

4.  Although there have been periodic halts to check my sanity, my relationship and my progress - I have found that commitment to electrolysis, laser hair removal, taking care of my skin, nails,  changing my presentation etc while they do help with my gid they are not enough for me.   I stop hrt and it seems like it will be enough but it never is and I recommence.   I now know that if I want to be in a good place then low dose hrt does work for me.

I would like to know my destination - full mtf transition, mta or else a revolving door or continual change   It does cause disquiet for me and I am concerned for others and how it will impact them and how I will be interpreted   But the changes are gradual, I am alive and while I am I cant but seek to explore the forest and my path through and within it.   Perhaps it is the journey and not the destination - life and gender isnt binary so why should decisions be binary.  Provided my endo doesnt think I am causing physical or physochological issues for myself I will continue to adjust dosages, seek new winds, clement weather, new paths and a good way forward.


A few years ago I would have thought that I am one very confused person but now I accept that at this point in time this is the place I am meant to be.

[ativan]

It seems that it has always been about the journey, regardless of any destination.
This has pretty much held true with most things in life for me, though.
I have missed my destination more than once because the journey becomes more important.
While having a destination in mind gives one direction, in the end, it is the journey.
My life has rarely been very static at any given time.
I think it is just the way I live, and have lived.
The fluidity of life is fun, given that one never really has to go with the current, if they so choose.
It's about the choices we face, and I was never one to choose to stay anywhere for very long.
I will know my destination soon enough, when I die.
That will be the destination I have always been drawn to.
Not that I have been in a hurry, at least not always.
Seems that we are always planning our escapes one way or another.
Yep, it's the journey that makes for the best memories for me, not so much the destination.
That's just the end of another story.
This whole gender thing in my life has dictated some awesome journey's into the unknown, at least for me.
I plan on keeping it that way. There is always a bit of sadness in getting to any destination for me.
But there is always that notion that another journey will be starting again.
It pleases me to know that. It is about the journey, make no mistake.
Even if you have a definite destination in mind, the place you want to be in life.
It's about how and what you need to do to get there.
For me, I like the adventure that comes along with that.
Babbling, again...

Ativan

[helen2010]

Ativan

Your response is nothing like babble.  It resonates with my experience although I have not had the words or level of enquiry that you have evidently made to express just where I am and where I will be.  The journey is more important than the destination - something which a target driven slightly obsessive mta took a while to understand.

Slight digression but perhaps thinking as a particle with definite coordinates in time and space on a binary continuum is completely wrong and the limitations of this paradigm become clearer when one thinks of oneself as a vibration, a wave seeking to resonate in line with its core or underlying structure.  This helps me accept that my self/being/nature/structure requires the hrt to vibrate authentically and in alignment with the universe and my place/path in it.   Now this sounds like babble!

Your posting is perhaps the most articulate expression I have read of what I am experiencing.   I am glad that I am not alone in this experience.      Fortunately my endo is right onboard and without a definite destination the pressure is off and between us we can find the right hrt dosage.  At the moment it seems that i can't get it all i.e. feeling calm, warm and sensate while my body ever so slowly feminizes (the right amount of E) without the ever present and growing stress of GID without either continued hair growth (not enough T) or fluffy thinking/indecision (too much T).   Perhaps I am hoping for too much or denying that I do have a binary destination but my sense and honest assessment today is that I am travelling through this forest for the foreseeable future

[soulfairer]

'Do you think one can really just stay in the forest?'

I hope so.

Ativan

I also do so (even though I questioned that)

[soulfairer]

Missed you too!

Staying in the forest is cozy but not an option. Animals do that because they fear man, but you can't afford to remain fearful because fear is the enemy of your own self esteem, social growth and development throughout this secondary puberty you're experiencing. You'll get clocked at times along with the occasional stares as if you are some kind of anomaly. So what? Deal with it and be who you want to be. I present androgene, typically in tight clingy T-shirt or one of Victoria Secret's fabulous tops, soft cup racerback bra because I have real boobs, baseball cap and skinny jeans. I went through all of that just the same, now it has diminished considerably because I exude personal confidence and poise in public. And the few dorks that want to stare get asked in a loud tone of voice, "What are you looking at?" Invariably they always become embarrassed at my reaction and become fearful that others will know that they were staring at me instead of the nice looking woman next to me and scurry away. It's a psychological method of turning the tables. Come out of the forest, you can handle it.

I am already clocked at times. Before HRT, some people thought I was gay. Then, now, some people just stare and think (then that's the moment I run). I just may gather courage, because I identify more as an "MtFtA" identity than an "MtA" one. It just is somewhat difficult to turn the table (but when it happens, I am certain that it does at once).

Also, some more feminine (though not exclusively feminine yet) clothes today just seem more of a fit... Ahhh, time, sometimes I just wanted to go fastforward a bit (but I shouldn't, I know).

Congrats! Maybe I sometime post the same here...

[soulfairer]

Maybe it's not so much coming out of the closet as it is leaving the door open.
Maybe it's not so much leaving the forest as it is inviting people to visit.

(...)

I have chosen to move forward, one step at a time. With less fear than I had before.
I might not be leaving the forest, but I am willing to step out of it when it suites me.
I am not alone. None of us are. Not anymore.

I wrote about androgynes and fashion in some way. We are way more people than we think of. Though it is generally difficult to find out that there is the middle term.
We think twice, thrice, and when beginning one just wonders if he/she can be she/he. We should also use our experience to tell the world there is something somewhat between.
As we are betweeners, we can swing to one, other or both directions, towards masculine or feminine.
Usually we thought more about many questions in life than most because there isn't really an answer for everything.

I'm also going elsewhere, also one step at a time.
Though we aren't going anywhere, we hover between many, many shades of what one calls identity or expression.
Alas, we also express a lot. Androgynes are probably the most expressive ones.

We can use all that for we are some who can really be on many, many peoples' shoes.
Let us also use that, being on other peoples' shoes.
Maybe we never ever leave the forest, but let us invite our friends to come in and see...

[Shana A]

Shantel, nice to see you back here! I resonate with what you said about being yourself in the world with confidence. Having a positive attitude as we walk through the world as ourselves really works! People feel that sense of self that we project, and I find they respond favorably, for the most part.

re, staying in or leaving the forest. I love the forest, but I also love the beach, the mountains, the desert, etc. I visit all worlds, and enjoy my interactions in each of them. I mean this both metaphorically and literally.

Since this past winter, I've made significant steps towards living in full truth of who I am. For many years it was OK for me to simply be androgyne internally, regardless of external presentation, now I am at a point in my life where I can't hide. Throughout the spring and summer, I've come out gradually to friends and in my work. As of the beginning of September, I'm now living as Z full time, 24/7. It is truly amazing, and I'm feeling happier. Earlier this week, I changed my name and profile picture on facebook, thereby outing myself to many people with one little press of a computer key.

I am beyond identifying as anything at all. I don't know if I'm androgyne, MTF, TS, TG, TV, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc... I don't really care what label I'm considered, as long as it doesn't use male pronouns, mister or sir.

Re HRT, I'm still on the fence about it. For now, social transition, I will stay with this for a while to see if that's enough, or whether I'll also need medical/physical transition. Only time will tell.

Z

[Shantel]

Dalebert made the comment on another thread that we are indeed going through a "Shift" on this planet. The various expressions in gender ID is certainly evidence of that. We all are drawn to the frontier of what may be the next evolutionary phase in humanity. I had not been aware of it during my youth, and was resistant later as a result of my Judeo-Christian background until I could no longer resist the pull of the forces that has brought me to where I am now. Zythyra, your comments at the bottom of your posts fit perfectly! Let me add yet another concept. "There is no such thing as can't." This was once screamed in my face by an Army NCO, I internalized it and it has served me well over the years to make my possibilities become a reality. I encourage others to consider deleting the word "can't" from their thought process entirely. Can't is simply translated to won't, it is used as a result of fearful apprehension, the tether that keeps those with GID from self actualization and soaring with eagles.

[Joann]

"There is no such thing as can't."

I agree... The same with the word, try
My favorite saying
"Do, or do not. There is no try."

[ativan]

We all are drawn to the frontier of what may be the next evolutionary phase in humanity.

I encourage others to consider deleting the word "can't" from their thought process entirely. Can't is simply translated to won't, it is used as a result of fearful apprehension, the tether that keeps those with GID from self actualization and soaring with eagles.

Can't which does, in many cases, for various reasons, does turn into won't, which is where GID comes from. I allowed the GID to make my life miserable to a point of several suicide attempts, one of the very few things I have failed at in life.
It was the failure of these attempts, because I did do what was surely the right things to end my life, I just did them half-heartedly. Which I suppose is par for what I was going through.
I didn't want to move forward, I couldn't just go back, I had nowhere left to run. So I just hid out in a psychological nightmare.
With enough therapy, that allowed me to admit why I had done so many things that came so close to killing me in growing up, I came to realize that a lot of it was the direct result of letting societies prejudices dictate who I was.
GID doesn't have to be for anyone of us. I can't  do that anymore, and I write about some of it in the hope that it will let others know they don't have to go through it, at the least, alone.

The nation, the world, is at a tipping point like it has never been before. Religous values, old values, are being rethought with a positive effect on what gender and orientation are. The old guard, the ones that I grew up with are passing the torch to a new generation that has an even more open minded generation behind them.
The elections this Nov in the USA are going to determine whether that old guard is going to adjust or get out of the way.
They may struggle with it, but they have me and others of my generation, pushing harder and harder all the time.
When I have been told that I can't or worse yet, shouldn't, it's my cue to say f*k that ->-bleeped-<-, I'm going to and there is little that will change my mind about it.
Can't is an awfully bad excuse used to keep someone in line with a perception of the world as they see it.
Won't is a result of that, of accepting that perception. I won't accept it, never have. I can't. I proved it to even myself.

Our time is coming, it's coming pretty fast, considering where we have all come from.
I'm not even going to consider putting on the safety's, I don't like having a net. If I fall, I will live, as I aways seem to do.
If any of you find that that rings true to your own nature, it is with reason.
It is time. Not only for you, but for those who will be going through the same as we did.
I just want it to be easier for their sake. They have more important contributions to make in life.

Can't and won't are the struggle I and my generation have had to deal with. Let's not pass that on.

Ativan

[Shantel]

Can't and won't are the struggle I and my generation have had to deal with. Let's not pass that on.
Ativan

Amen to another exceptional Ativan post!

[Shana A]

Our time is coming, it's coming pretty fast, considering where we have all come from.

Our time is now!

I've asked myself a question a lot over the past few months, if not now, when? At 56, I'm not getting any younger. For me, the answer has to be now.

Z

[soulfairer]

Our time is now!

I've asked myself a question a lot over the past few months, if not now, when? At 56, I'm not getting any younger. For me, the answer has to be now.

Z

And so is mine! I am "just" 32, but I already realized time doesn't rewind (at least in this sense). Now is the answer and the means!

[ativan]

I'm 60 (that is still so weird to say). But I'm going on 32. I haven't the slightest idea how time has moved along to actually be this age. But I never thought, as many did, that I wouldn't see 30, so going on 32 is an accomplishment in itself.

Time is a very weird perception to me. I really don't have the ability to form a time line without some difficulty.
I don't know if something that happened yesterday, was at a different time than something that happened a year ago.
I have to really stop and think and even ask or look things up to find out, sometimes.
So, anyways, 60 is irrelevant to me. I am going on 32 and that's all there is to that. 
Now is as good a time as any, for me. But then so is tomorrow or yesterday.
Things are happening. They will happen in their own time. But it will be someone who is doing that.
I am not alone in doing what I can to help. That's the best part of it all.
We are finding our voice, and the numbers are growing. It's exciting, for me.
What a long, strange trip it's been (Thanks Jerry for putting that seed of thought in my head so many years ago).

Sometimes the lights all shinin on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip its been.



Truckin',
Ativan

[Shantel]

Oh Cripes, you're all just babies! I'll be seventy next year, young at heart, physically fit and the only medications I have to take is estrogen. Most of my CIS female friends are in their 30's as is my own mindset. It's all in one's self perspectives!