If a woman has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, will her brain always be female?

[~RoadToTrista~]

I've been a bit curious about that. For those who don't know, complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is when the the body is unable to respond to androgens. It occurs in both sexes but the effects are way more significant in males, as the syndrome causes his body to develop as women. She will also develop female genitalia instead of male genitalia, as the condition has been with her since conception. They'll be infertile because they won't have a uterus.

All the XY girls on Youtube seem really happy with their genders, it makes me curious because I'm thinking that since their brain can't respond to androgens, they can't have a male gender identity. Thoughts?

[wheat thins are delicious]

All the XY girls on Youtube seem really happy with their genders, it makes me curious because I'm thinking that since their brain can't respond to androgens, they can't have a male gender identity. Thoughts?

If that were the case how do you account for MTF's who were AMAB and bodies that responded to androgens? 

[~RoadToTrista~]

Almost everyone's bodies respond to androgens, just like almost everyone's bodies respond to estrogens. Everyone goes through a certain balance of both during development. An AIS woman wouldn't be able to respond to androgens, but she would respond to estrogens. This affects genital development, and since her mental development wouldn't be effected by androgens at all, I'm theorizing that it would be impossible for an AIS woman to be born with a male gender identity.

[wheat thins are delicious]

I'm sure there are some out there who ID as men.  You just have to look.

[~RoadToTrista~]

Why are you sure? These people will never develop as men in any way we can see, they won't develop a penis, nor will they be affected by testosterone.

[justmeinoz]

There have been a number of women on here over the years who are IS as well as TS.  Rare concurrence, but it is bound to happen.

[~RoadToTrista~]

Like who?

[justmeinoz]

Apart from a personal friend, there was Rejennyrated for a start.

[~RoadToTrista~]

Okay, I just read her old posts on Susan's via Google search. Her case was PAIS (partial). I have no doubts that people with other different types of AIS can also be TS, but if someone is CAIS (complete), I don't think it's possible.

Additionally she didn't have a male gender identity anyway.

[Shantel]

One of my best friends was born AIS, I've known her for a long time. She has male XY chromosomes but was unresponsive to the testosterone shower that occurs at an early stage in the mother's womb. Given the fact that all human embryos begin as female, her system simply retained the female characteristics. She grew tall, 5' 9" and willowy. Her chest and shoulders were narrow as any females and she was extremely feminine. She showed me her genitalia once when we were in a hot tub and it was ambiguously more female as there was no penis or testicles although it was different. A few years ago she had it corrected by a SRS surgeon. She has never grown facial hair and has a high female voice. Unfortunately she has had an inner battle going on inside her sweet little head all of her life and has seen counselors off an on about it for years. I feel sad for her because I know it makes her miserable. She has always identified as female although she tells me that she thinks she should have been a man and somehow feels like a man in her brain at times. I don't use her name because she's an occasional poster here and I love her like family. Interestingly enough, there have been many notable runway fashion models who are AIS with XY chromosomes, they make perfect models.

[~RoadToTrista~]

Yes but she doesn't identify as a man, or not yet. Could it be possible that since she knows her body was suppose to develop as male, and that she feels some sort of guilt? I don't like to pretend I'm an expert and you know her better than I do, it's just that from my perspective, that's what it seems.

[Zelane]

Okay, I just read her old posts on Susan's via Google search. Her case was PAIS (partial). I have no doubts that people with other different types of AIS can also be TS, but if someone is CAIS (complete), I don't think it's possible.

Additionally she didn't have a male gender identity anyway.

Well, you say it well there.

PAIS I think it migth be possible if we agree that a prenatal hormanal bath might affect gender identity. Then maybe a PAIS person might develop a mal identity (who knows)

But then with a CAIS it would be a no-no (I dont know)

[Stealthy]

I believe the whole male brain/female brain thing is overrated. Is gender identity inborn to at least some degree? Yes. But to say it's brain sex is just another way of claiming 'biology is destiny', something that really harms the trans community.

[pebbles]

Trista your right to suspect that something like that might be the case however it isn't.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272

This is a case of a FTM with CAIS, It certainly dose put a snag in that idea. Likewise they've done twin studies and it's unusual to have both twins with GID however it might be the case that the other twin shows atypical gender behaviour implying a societal/developmental element along with a potential genetic/invitro disposition.

[Shantel]

Yes but she doesn't identify as a man, or not yet. Could it be possible that since she knows her body was suppose to develop as male, and that she feels some sort of guilt? I don't like to pretend I'm an expert and you know her better than I do, it's just that from my perspective, that's what it seems.

Yes she does, and I have to continually remind her that it's not her fault, that she couldn't possibly be responsible for something that occurred in the womb that she had no control over. Although she is absolutely almost a savant when it comes to remembering numbers and analytical problems, she suffers from cognitive problems in other areas, has massive migraines, depression and self doubt. I don't envy her!

[Jamie D]

HERE'S a good informational place to start learning about "second type women" with AIS.

[~RoadToTrista~]

I believe the whole male brain/female brain thing is overrated. Is gender identity inborn to at least some degree? Yes. But to say it's brain sex is just another way of claiming 'biology is destiny', something that really harms the trans community.

If biology is destiny, then why would you care? Cause like, it's just a part of your personality that's biological instead of from experiences, lolz, beyond that it's pretty much the same. Also I disagree I think it would help our community.

[pretty]

I believe the whole male brain/female brain thing is overrated. Is gender identity inborn to at least some degree? Yes. But to say it's brain sex is just another way of claiming 'biology is destiny', something that really harms the trans community.

Lol since when is biology NOT destiny?

Come on, stop wriggling around in some illusion of magical free will. You are biological and everything you think is a 1:1 product of your biology. Biology IS destiny in every way.

[Stealthy]

Pretty, what you're saying right there is one of the major arguments used to claim we don't exist and we're just deluding ourselves, all because the things in our pants don't match our gender identity. I think I might've read a transphobe write those exact words once.

[pretty]

Pretty, what you're saying right there is one of the major arguments used to claim we don't exist and we're just deluding ourselves, all because the things in our pants don't match our gender identity. I think I might've read a transphobe write those exact words once.

Why should it matter to me what a transphobe wrote? People call everyone a transphobe if they disagree with new-age unicorn gender roles.

Are you really gonna paint me as a transphobe while I'm transitioning?  I don't hate myself THAT much.

Anyway, reality check, just because something someone says denies your identity doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. If life were that convenient I could walk around as a vampire  . I can't do that though. Not saying it's automatically right either, but I'm saying how much it validates your identity has nothing to do with whether or not it's right.

Second of all, and here's the important thing, when someone is transitioning, they're making a claim that they're a sex that they weren't born as, and asking people to treat them as that sex.

If there's NOT a medical basis for it, like, if that never actually happens physically, then it's not a very legitimate claim, is it? Not any more than saying "I'm a vampire, treat me like a vampire." And I really doubt even you would take that one seriously 

You know, I don't set society's standards. And I'm not defending people who just want to deny someone's identity no matter how well it fits them just to be a jerk.

Still, like, you can say you have a problem with society's treatment based on sex. You can tell people they shouldn't treat a guy differently just because they're a guy. Or a girl differently because they're a girl. That's kind of a different issue than trans issues. But when you tell someone "I was born a girl but I'm a guy," or whatever, it's gonna silly if you look and act like a girl.

But anyway, actually paying attention to reality doesn't have to work against trans people. Because if you actually pay attention to reality, where men and women have actual differences in personality and interests and sexuality and stuff, and where some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality and vise versa... then those people can't fairly deny your identity anymore than they could deny that a cancer patient has tumors.

And I went on way too long about this, because honestly I'm kind of in the "whatever" stage about it all, but sometimes I just want to ask this community like, "lol, really?" And I unfortunately have to exclude myself from those "we"s because again, I really have trouble fitting into this community as someone who actually believes it means something palpable to be "masculine" or "feminine." Like, I want to fit in here, but honestly I couldn't even take myself seriously if I were transitioning after having a wife and five kids, a gigantic beard and a car demolition business or something.