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Does our "love" have a hook?

Started by David W. Shelton, March 31, 2007, 08:24:04 PM

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David W. Shelton

I had a conversation recently which focused on matters of faith and Christian ideals. The person I was talking with had her share of Christianity, and was nonplussed at many of the things that were being presented. Quite frankly, I can't really blame her.

She asked me if I felt like it was my responsibility to try to change people when they come to my church. It was then that I realized why so many people have been turned off by the Church in general. If I were to think of "church," I have to ask myself what kind of a mental image I get.

What does someone who's been turned away from the church think of it? I don't think I want to get into any of the possible specifics right now, but some of the general elements surround a perception of religious arrogance.

Let me backtrack for just a minute. When I talk about "the Church," I'm talking about the whole collective of churches across the country. I take care to not address any specific denominations or ministries unless absolutely necessary. If it seems like I'm "bashing" or "lambasting" the Church, then it's for one reason: I'm lambasting myself.

In all reality, I am critical of Christianity because I am Christian. I see the faults because I see my own faults. I can not judge or scrutinize anything unless I first look at my own closet. It's with all of this in mind that I write lovingly on the frustrations that some of us have faced when dealing with either traditional or institutional Christianity.

In short, I'm keenly aware of the reality that I, too, am arrogant, have stabbed backs, and have been self-righteous. I've failed to show the love of Christ on countless occasions, and I've been a poor witness for the faith and my Lord on more occasions than I even want to try to count.

So please, as you read further, understand that my desire to be real is as paramount to me as the desire to be broken before my brethren and my Lord.

Now, I'll get specific. If someone befriends us who happens to be in leadership of a church, what's the first thing that goes through your mind? "I bet they want me to join their church." This person will be friendly–overly friendly, even–almost to the point of being irritating. They'll show all kinds of love. They'll be kind, generous, even compassionate.

"But," you think. "Is there a hook?"

That's the real question, isn't it? Is there a hook? Is it possible that there really is an ulterior motive to all of the doting, friendly calls, kind little gifts and extra birthday cards? This is when I have to check my own motives for my actions. If I show love, do I have a hook attached to it?

And if I do have a hook attached, then all of my loving actions have a new label: bait. It's a harsh reality for me to consider, but isn't that all we're doing when we show love in order to get something back?

Let me take it out of the church context for a moment and back to our romantic lives. Love with a hook is all over the place. One of the most extreme examples of "love with a hook" in my mind is the "I love you so much, and if you love me you'll sleep with me." That's quite a hook, isn't it?

That boyfriend or girlfriend might bestow on us a number of gifts, free dinners, and heaven knows what else, but there might be a hook... marriage... sex... a new car... you name it. In times like this, "love" is actually bait...a lure... in a word, it's a trap.

Isn't that what we do when we befriend someone in order to get them to join a church? There's a hook. Maybe it's like when we give money to someone in order so they'll tell their friends what we did. It's a hook.

When love becomes bait, it actually becomes something far more sinister: manipulation. It's very subtle, but that's the nature of the beast, isn't it?

In all fairness, though, this kind of subtle manipulation is often so subtle that we don't even realize when we're doing it. After all, it's what we've been taught all our lives. If we perform well, we get a paycheck. If we do good works, we get a pat on the back. We've been taught to take the hook at every turn.

This is why Christianity in its truest form is so unique. With Christ, there is no hook. God has given everything to us... and He knows we can't... and won't pay him back! The hook was pulled. "I love you," Jesus said. And his actions always backed up his words. He showed love by showing mercy, compassion, and kindness.

Yes, it's true that a hook is great for fishing. We even want to use the biggest, flashiest lure that we can in order to entice the fish to bite. After all, didn't Jesus call us to be "fishers of men?"

Not so fast. In Christ's day, there were no hooks. It was simply a net. The fishers would cast the net and reel the fish into the boat. There was no deception, no lure, and of course, no hooks. Would Jesus actually say, "I will make you a fisher like the ones who use shiny, flashy lure to bring in the biggest, greatest bass of all?"

No. He cast the net. And pulled in every fish that would fit within it.

Maybe it's time for all of us... especially me... to check our motives for our actions. Do we have a hook? Or not? Let's put away the lures and remove the hooks once and for all!
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rhonda13000

but some of the general elements surround a perception of religious arrogance.

Partially.

Arrogance, hubris and willful ignorance and these find their etiology and root in mankind, not God.

They like to imagine that they possess Divine sanction and approval for their manifestation of what in reality is hate, but this is merely a pitiful exercise in a seemingly innate characteristic of mankind in general: self-delusion.

Christianity in its divinely authored concept and design is a perfect system of belief. It is the human beings for whom it was intended for that grossly distort and pervert its innate perfection.

And that is what drives people away from it, at the behest and direction of Satan.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 [abstractly], et al.

God cannot be the author of hate or partiality, or God cannot be God [Divine attributes].

Differentiations must be made between that which God thinks and that which mankind thinks, for more often than not, these are divergent from each other.

In the passage from 2 Thessalonians cited, God says in effect,

"You are free to believe what you wish to believe [or conversely, disbelieve], but there is a consequence for failing to believe in TRUTH."

There is a great deal of 'spiritual camouflage' that is intentionally being created and sustained in the world today.

But the Truth nonetheless can be found.

The saving Truth and bereft of that Truth, life is meaningless.
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Attis

Love can never be conditional on the basis of extortion, otherwise it is never love. Whether we're talking about the normal kind of love between couples. Or the kind of love one has for a friendly rival. Or a love for other human beings in general. The only condition for such love is that the love is an expression of your highest values. Whether it's the best in your life partner. The best in your friends. Or the best in human nature. Such love is the the kind that can be fostered without force or fraud. And it grows upon reciprocation. It improves our lives.

Yet, today many religious organizations teach a kind of love based on self-guilt and self-hatred. It's the kind of love where one must lose one's self to another, even if it's not one's highest value. Even if it tramples on one's values in whole. This is the love of the thug. The love of the looter. The love of the liar. And the love of the abuser. It is the kind of love that destroys everything, leaving everything desolate and grey. It is a shallow love, where nothing can be hoped to be given back in kind, for it's the kind of love that is like a black hole sucking all things into it from which nothing can return. And that is the root of this kind of love, total selfish disregard toward the lives of others. It is a sacrificial love, where others are made to sacrifice where the one who extorts gains the offering.

When you can distinguish between these kinds of love, you will be better off in the end. :)

-- Brede
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Fer

It is incredibly annoying when people say it just to irk me. When they know Im an atheist and that Id rather be left to my non belief and they still say {Ill pray for you} or {God loves you anyway}, it basically means {well good for you and your idiocy, but since my preferred brand of deity does exist, lets hope it takes pity on you}  Nothing personal, David. You did not know I am an atheist, and I am just making a point. :)

Love?  Something that doesnt exist cant love me, but if they are deluded enough to believe in it then theres no point me trying to tell them otherwise.
The laws of God, the laws of man, He may keep that will and can; Not I. Let God and man decree Laws for themselves and not for me; And if my ways are not as theirs Let them mind their own affairs. - A. E. Housman
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Tiffany Elise

Yes, it's true that a hook is great for fishing. We even want to use the biggest, flashiest lure that we can in order to entice the fish to bite. After all, didn't Jesus call us to be "fishers of men?"

Not so fast. In Christ's day, there were no hooks. It was simply a net. The fishers would cast the net and reel the fish into the boat. There was no deception, no lure, and of course, no hooks. Would Jesus actually say, "I will make you a fisher like the ones who use shiny, flashy lure to bring in the biggest, greatest bass of all?"

  I agree totally with you in that Christianity should not have a hook but I have to disagree with the one item above.

Matthew 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

  Keep up the good work. I love your insight and style. As a matter of fact, I wish I could relay thoughts as eloquently as you do.

  Tiff
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David W. Shelton

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Attis

I would like to quiz the OP on one point. Would you consider virtues being the primary problem here? That people have picked the wrong virtues to live by, thus their actions are the results of that? In the context of the thread, I mean.

-- Bridget
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Cindi Jones

But Fer, someone who has learned to share true love and compassion will give that to you freely. Their capacity to love will transcend their stated beliefs. You may not hear them speak of god, their religion, or their faith. For that will not be at issue.

Love is pure.  Oh... and by the way.... everyone can learn it, even us unbelievers.

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Dryad

The problem is: Even in selfless acts, there is a catch. After all, isn't it MY motive that you be happy? Doesn't YOUR happiness make me feel good?

Selfish goodness is in us for a reason. Because if we wouldn't feel so damn good about doing good, we probably wouldn't bother. Because that feeling is our intense awareness of good. And if we aren't aware of good, how can we act it?

If God created us, it created that feeling. And if God is a person, a thinking entity, it created that feeling with a meaning.

Because some of us are willing to die to feel that sensation, to be aware of the fact that you've allowed someone else to live, and be happy. Selfish selflessness. It's a wonderful thing.
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David W. Shelton

Quote from: Attis on April 01, 2007, 01:02:04 AM
I would like to quiz the OP on one point. Would you consider virtues being the primary problem here? That people have picked the wrong virtues to live by, thus their actions are the results of that? In the context of the thread, I mean.

-- Bridget

Hi Bridget! This post is a follow-up to another thread, Passion for God, Compassion for People. They're very closely related. Most of what I'm addressing here has to do with the context within the Christian church and how people relate to each other.

I think you're picking up this quite nicely. Virtues... attitudes... and actions are all closely related. Now, as to whether or not they've picked the right virtues or not, I really can't say. A lot of people are just simply picking from the only things they've been exposed to. Sure, some of us have moved beyond that, but let's try to remember that not everyone has the same idea of what "love" is. These two posts are meant to show a little bit of what _I_ think it is. And I know that my own experience is limited.

Which is why forums like this are such a great place for posting these... we can share them with each other and get new insight from each other. I know I'm learning from everyone here.

Take care!
Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 01, 2007, 01:06:54 AM
But Fer, someone who has learned to share true love and compassion will give that to you freely. Their capacity to love will transcend their stated beliefs. You may not hear them speak of god, their religion, or their faith. For that will not be at issue.

Love is pure.  Oh... and by the way.... everyone can learn it, even us unbelievers.

Cindi

Yes, Cindi... everyone can learn it, even us Christians! Great post!
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rhonda13000

Quote from: Dryad on April 01, 2007, 01:08:50 AM
The problem is: Even in selfless acts, there is a catch. After all, isn't it MY motive that you be happy? Doesn't YOUR happiness make me feel good?

Selfish goodness is in us for a reason. Because if we wouldn't feel so damn good about doing good, we probably wouldn't bother. Because that feeling is our intense awareness of good. And if we aren't aware of good, how can we act it?

If God created us, it created that feeling. And if God is a person, a thinking entity, it created that feeling with a meaning.

Because some of us are willing to die to feel that sensation, to be aware of the fact that you've allowed someone else to live, and be happy. Selfish selflessness. It's a wonderful thing.

[gently, dispassionately...]

That one derives a good feeling from giving to others in some way, shape fashion or form does not negate the value nor concept of helping others.

In some cases, doing so is actually therapeutic to the 'giver' but again, this in itself does not negate the value of the act nor necessarily imply a self-serving ulterior motive.

Some people do help others towards self-serving ends or to generate within themselves a feeling of perceived 'superiority', which ultimately has its roots in perceived self-inferiority, but this is not the norm.

I would be jaded and cynical to believe that it was.

I do not want to be jaded and cynical anymore.
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Dryad

Oh, I did not, by any means, mean a feeling of superiority.
What I meant was: It's good to do good, and the reason for us to do good is that we percieve us doing good. If we didn't feel good about doing good, we probably wouldn't do good, because we wouldn't understand doing good.
So doing good makes us feel good, and that's why we are able to do good.
There's always an egotistical motive. I want YOU to be happy; that is my desire. So I will help you, if you ask me to, if you want me to, so I can fulfill MY desire of you being happy. There's nothing wrong with that; it does not make a good deed less good. That's not what I meant.
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Suzy

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 01, 2007, 01:14:22 AM
Hi Bridget! This post is a follow-up to another thread, Passion for God, Compassion for People. They're very closely related. Most of what I'm addressing here has to do with the context within the Christian church and how people relate to each other.

While it is true that the subject of unconditional love is a mostly in-house debate among Christians, I am so thankful for the ones who do not share our faith, the honest ones who keep up honest.

The greatest discourse in the gospels about this AGAPE love is, in my opinion, found in John chapter 15.

9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

It is utterly amazing to me that the love God has for us, is the very same love that the Father has for the Son.  It is perfect, without demand, completely accepting.  Then Christ has the audacity to tell us to turn around and live in the community surrounded by that very kind of love as we express it one to another.  In  other words, if I am to claim that I truly love someone (in the AGAPE sense) it must be true that I love them as completely as the Father loves the Son.  Mind blowing!  Without a hook?  Yes and more.  Much more.

This kind of love is an active, self-starting kind of love.  It is not simply reactive.  It does not wait until someone else express interest in us.  It looks and prays for opportunities to make a difference in our world.  Perhaps it is only in the life of one other individual.  But one-to-one has always been a very effective way of being genuine. 

But this love goes even further still.  It loves in the face of hatred.  It loves at the risk of being grossly misunderstood.  It loves when the world mocks (often with good cause).  It loves when there is seemingly no reason to do so.  It loves when to do so would be to one's own detriment.  It loves, even when it means laying down one's life to show it.  It loves when nobody is around to see it or take notice.  It loves when it means letting go of that which we hold most precious.  It loves when the heart's cry to do so comes at the very least convenient time. 

There is a conterfeit, though.  That is a self-starting self-serving love.  At first it can look so similar!  That is the "love" that most outside of the church experience.  It is a love that says "I'll love you if you agree with my theology."  Or, "I'll love you if your lifestyle measures up to a certain notch on my yardstick."  Or, "I'll love you if your skin looks like mine."  Or, "I'll love you if you don't mind waiting until my church friends don't have to see us together."  Or, "I'll love you if there is enough in it for me."  Or, in my opinion, the most deadly:  "I'll love you as long as it's understood that I can change you eventually."  The one constant "hook" I see here is that of self.  All of these feed my ego.  I like what someone once said:  EGO stands for Easing God Out.  If we are only involved in the counterfeit, then the insidiously obvious truth is that we love neither God nor people.  And we wonder why the church is in such a mess.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 01, 2007, 01:06:54 AM
Love is pure.  Oh... and by the way.... everyone can learn it, even us unbelievers.
Cindi

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 01, 2007, 01:14:22 AM
Yes, Cindi... everyone can learn it, even us Christians! Great post!

Cindi and David,  I too hope that Christians can learn it.  Thanks so much for a wonderful topic.

Kristi
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David W. Shelton

QuoteThere is a conterfeit, though.  That is a self-starting self-serving love.  At first it can look so similar!  That is the "love" that most outside of the church experience.  It is a love that says "I'll love you if you agree with my theology."  Or, "I'll love you if your lifestyle measures up to a certain notch on my yardstick."  Or, "I'll love you if your skin looks like mine."  Or, "I'll love you if you don't mind waiting until my church friends don't have to see us together."  Or, "I'll love you if there is enough in it for me."  Or, in my opinion, the most deadly:  "I'll love you as long as it's understood that I can change you eventually."  The one constant "hook" I see here is that of self.  All of these feed my ego.  I like what someone once said:  EGO stands for Easing God Out.  If we are only involved in the counterfeit, then the insidiously obvious truth is that we love neither God nor people.  And we wonder why the church is in such a mess.

This. Is. Brilliant.

May I use the EGO quote? I love it.
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Kimberly

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 01, 2007, 01:14:22 AM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 01, 2007, 01:06:54 AM
, even us unbelievers.
, even us Christians!
Um, if I may make a suggestion, how about "us humans"?

I mean, sure it is satire but... *sigh*... It might help to just go with less separation?
Maybe perhaps?
*shrug*
Just sand in the wind...
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Suzy

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 01, 2007, 07:55:01 PM
This. Is. Brilliant.
May I use the EGO quote? I love it.

Sure, David.  pm me and I'll tell you more about it.

Kristi
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rhonda13000

Quote from: Fer on March 31, 2007, 11:16:43 PM
It is incredibly annoying when people say it just to irk me. When they know Im an atheist and that Id rather be left to my non belief and they still say {Ill pray for you} or {God loves you anyway}, it basically means {well good for you and your idiocy, but since my preferred brand of deity does exist, lets hope it takes pity on you}  Nothing personal, David. You did not know I am an atheist, and I am just making a point. :)

Love?  Something that doesnt exist cant love me, but if they are deluded enough to believe in it then theres no point me trying to tell them otherwise.

Theologically, you and I are poles apart, but I think that I will forego launching a jihad against you; it has been another long day at the airfield.

You look great [avatar pic].
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Yvonne

Not sure if I understand the question.  if you mean that love is the only answer to all the worlds problems, then I think in a sense you are right, if we had love for our fellow man then wars might stop and alot of the earths problems would stop. if you are saying that love is the only answer to all an individuals problem then no because the feeling you have described is a fleeting thing and while it's nice while it lasts the individuals problems will still be there after.

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rhonda13000

"Let me backtrack for just a minute. When I talk about "the Church," I'm talking about the whole collective of churches across the country."

You and I differ diametrically on our respective perceptions and concepts of this word.

That is stated quite dispassionately, in a 'matter of fact' emotional hue.

1 Corinthians 1:10, et al.
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Dryad

QuoteNot sure if I understand the question.  if you mean that love is the only answer to all the worlds problems, then I think in a sense you are right, if we had love for our fellow man then wars might stop and alot of the earths problems would stop. if you are saying that love is the only answer to all an individuals problem then no because the feeling you have described is a fleeting thing and while it's nice while it lasts the individuals problems will still be there after.
I disagree. Because love is also in action. If there is love, there is a motive to help your fellow person. And to be helped, in turn. So the problem will have gone away, unless you're dying from an illness that has no cure as of yet. In that case: You'll be dying in comfort, because there's love. If there's love, there's painkillers, or stronger stuff, and if that's not enough, then there'll be someone to give you an O.D,  pull the plug on you, or place your head between an anvil and a sledgehammer, whichever is least painful and most humane.
Love changes everything.
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