Dealing with transgender murders.

[Keri Allison]

Sometimes I make jokes about myself being murdered to groups of people where some know I'm trans and some do not. Apparently, no one is entertained except for myself. I guess it's just my way of dealing with being transgender and the fact that we have such a high murder rate.

I've come to terms with my mortality and I don't think I'm afraid to die anymore. I've came very close to suicide once and I decided to live because I can't betray all those who love me. My parents and sister, my friends, my extended family, my fraternity, my dog... But if I must die, perhaps by murder, I see it as ending my suffering.

I just don't want to die in an undignifying manner. I want to die well dressed, in either gender's clothes, and in a fashion that commands respect rather than pity, then be cremated in congruence with my Buddhist faith. I don't care where my ashes go. What happens to my soul is all that matters to me.

Sometimes, I can imagine myself staring into the eyes of my killer, with my eyes wide, slightly in tears, daring him that he kills me. His gun pointed towards my head.. There's a certain kind of beauty in that don't you think?

[Stephe]

I'm quite confused by the obsession with the thought that being trans is so dangerous and that as a "normal person" who happens to be trans you are very likely to get shot or killed.

Most of the data on trans violence leaves out some important data points. How many of these killed are sex workers? In many countries most of these incidents are from sex workers. And how many who are killed were playing the "I'm trans but I'm not telling anyone" game, picking up straight men and later this is "discovered".

Another thing that happens is transwomen forget they are -women-, go to a bad part of town alone etc, are attacked/raped, the attacker finds out they are trans and freaks out. Clearly there have been cases where someone was minding their own business and was attacked, but I don't think the vast majority are like this. And I'm not -blaming- anyone who is a victim of a crime, but in many cases they have placed themselves in harms way. 

I guess my point is, I feel unless I start engaging in these sorts of risky behavior, I'm not at higher risk of being killed/attacked as a cisgendered woman is.

And I can see why your friends wouldn't see this "joke" as funny either..

[King Malachite]

To each is their own.

Even though I am naturally scared of dying I am starting to accept it a bit more.  The way I look at it is hey I will be a biological male in my version of heaven and that's less red tape I have to go through than down here.

However I'm not going to make death easy for those killers who wish to take my life from me.  You can be sure that it will be a battle for the ages and if that I go down, then I will go down in glory.  That person will have a couple of scars to remind them of how they got it.

[Nygeel]

The statistics are that transgender women (in the US) make up between 1%-8% of the LGBT community, are the victims of 44% of murders from hate violence in the US. 70% were women of color. The statistics suck if you're a trans woman of color. Oh, and the overwhelming majority of attackers are white cisgender men (forgot the exact percentage).

Stephe, you are victim blaming.

[kelly_aus]

Stephe makes a good point.. If you take the same precautions as any other woman and don't play any dangerous games, you really shouldn't be any less safe than any other woman..

[Asfsd4214]

Sometimes I make jokes about myself being murdered to groups of people where some know I'm trans and some do not. Apparently, no one is entertained except for myself. I guess it's just my way of dealing with being transgender and the fact that we have such a high murder rate.

I've come to terms with my mortality and I don't think I'm afraid to die anymore. I've came very close to suicide once and I decided to live because I can't betray all those who love me. My parents and sister, my friends, my extended family, my fraternity, my dog... But if I must die, perhaps by murder, I see it as ending my suffering.

I just don't want to die in an undignifying manner. I want to die well dressed, in either gender's clothes, and in a fashion that commands respect rather than pity, then be cremated in congruence with my Buddhist faith. I don't care where my ashes go. What happens to my soul is all that matters to me.

Sometimes, I can imagine myself staring into the eyes of my killer, with my eyes wide, slightly in tears, daring him that he kills me. His gun pointed towards my head.. There's a certain kind of beauty in that don't you think?

The statistics are that transgender women (in the US) make up between 1%-8% of the LGBT community, are the victims of 44% of murders from hate violence in the US. 70% were women of color. The statistics suck if you're a trans woman of color. Oh, and the overwhelming majority of attackers are white cisgender men (forgot the exact percentage).

Sources please.

It's said there are 3 kinds of lies. Lies, Damn lies, and Statistics.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/narratives/hate-crime-2010-victims

We're not even directly listed in those stats.

Even if you went by far more common sexual orientation, it lists 18.6% of victims of hate crimes are for that motive.

Most stats I've seen of the 299,000,000+ population of the us, 4% are LGBTI, lets round that up to 10% to be liberal, 1 in 10 people.

That's about 29,900,000 LGBTI people. Of reported crimes that risk seems to work out to a 0.03% risk of being victim of any sort of hate crime in being lgbti, at the very best.

This statistics are likely way off, because I've only done some rough calculations based on readily available sources.

I do however agree with you that Stephe was, to a mild extent, victim blaming. Not cool.

[Nygeel]

NCAVP, I'm using my phone so I can't get you the PDF.

[Nygeel]

That FBI site says only 7 murders happened from hate violence in 2010, but I know there were more than 7 transgender people killed in the US that year.

[Asfsd4214]

That FBI site says only 7 murders happened from hate violence in 2010, but I know there were more than 7 transgender people killed in the US that year.

Couple points.

1. If you don't have the statistics, don't pretend you do. You can either provide evidence or you can't. If you can't, you can provide personal opinion, which is totally fine. Doesn't mean your opinion isn't true either, but it does mean it's ultimately not well known at this point.

2. A trans person being murdered is not automatically in and of itself a hate crime, that's not to say anything of the people you knew, but it's a factor that must be kept in mind in any statistics gathering.

[Nygeel]

Just do a Google search for NCAVP hate crimes report 2010. The statistics I've said are quoted in a whole bunch of articles, too.

Here's a list of trans women that were murdered in 2010:
http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=1194 not sure what else it would be other than a hate crime.

[kelly_aus]

Just do a Google search for NCAVP hate crimes report 2010. The statistics I've said are quoted in a whole bunch of articles, too.

Here's a list of trans women that were murdered in 2010:
http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=1194 not sure what else it would be other than a hate crime.

Wrong place, wrong time comes to mind..

[Asfsd4214]

Just do a Google search for NCAVP hate crimes report 2010. The statistics I've said are quoted in a whole bunch of articles, too.

Here's a list of trans women that were murdered in 2010:
http://www.transgenderdor.org/?page_id=1194 not sure what else it would be other than a hate crime.

It could be many many other things than a hate crime.

Drug dispute.
Murder related to prostitution.
Domestic violence.

Of those on the TDOR site that were sources, 10 were in the USA. Of all the sources I went though of them, 2 appeared to be related to being transgender, one was ruled a suicide, all were in the sex trade.

One of them was just a baby who was far too young to even express a gender identity who got counted purely because his father killed them for acting too feminine. The very fact so many on the list aren't in the USA, and how many are poorly sourced or assumed, is in itself evidence that the risk is very low.

The report you mentioned appeared to show 10-30 lgbti related deaths in any given year.

Of the aforementioned  29,900,000 strong lgbti population. That's an even lower number of %0.0001.
Even if we pretend the population is much lower, it's still very low.

[Jamie D]

You make a good point.  Not all T-murders/assaults are "hate crimes."

The actual 2010 US census enumeration was 308,745,538.

A recent UCLA study paced the combine GLBT population at 3.5%; the trans population at 0.3%.

[Stephe]

Sources please.

Years of reading reports of trans deaths. The vast majority I have read end with "And Joe Bob found out she used to be a man and freaked out.."

Call me victim blaming but this is a known dangerous game. I NEVER said these people had a right to act violently but it's a fact that they do. Just like being alone in a bad part of town is using bad judgement. I stand by my post, don't engage in dangerous activities and it's highly unlikely someone is going to kill you just because you are trans.

BTW do these stats you posted Nygeel show I am wrong, that the highest % of people attacked were not sex workers or playing the pick up straights game?

I highly doubt that 44% of trans people are murdered as you seem to be claiming either in your quoted stats.. Twisting stats to scare people seems to be a common thing here. I'm not sure why people seem to embrace this idea than living as a trans is deadly. Maybe to reenforce their desire to be stealth or to just not deal with this?

[Keri Allison]

Actually, "victim blaming" might not be a bad thing at all. At the end of the day, you're responsible for your own well-being. Even the police aren't responsible (see Castle Rock v. Gonzales).

We have to take certain precautions in order to keep ourselves safe. For example, if you live in the Bronx, you can't expect to be safe without locking your doors at night. You can't just keep it wide open and say "it's not my fault if people break in".

[Nygeel]

Call me victim blaming but this is a known dangerous game. I NEVER said these people had a right to act violently but it's a fact that they do. Just like being alone in a bad part of town is using bad judgement. I stand by my post, don't engage in dangerous activities and it's highly unlikely someone is going to kill you just because you are trans.

Just as dressing a certain way is more likely to get a person raped.

BTW do these stats you posted Nygeel show I am wrong, that the highest % of people attacked were not sex workers or playing the pick up straights game?

They do show that the highest percentage were people of color.

I highly doubt that 44% of trans people are murdered as you seem to be claiming either in your quoted stats.. Twisting stats to scare people seems to be a common thing here. I'm not sure why people seem to embrace this idea than living as a trans is deadly. Maybe to reenforce their desire to be stealth or to just not deal with this?

I didn't say 44% of trans people are murdered. I said that trans people make up 44% of all murders from hate related violence in the US.


Jamie D, if the trans population is .3%, then (in theory) trans women would make up about .15%, and if the spread is even then about 33% are people of color, then that's .0495% of the population are trans women of color, and the number of murders towards trans women of color are incredibly disproportional.

[Asfsd4214]

Years of reading reports of trans deaths. The vast majority I have read end with "And Joe Bob found out she used to be a man and freaked out.."

Call me victim blaming but this is a known dangerous game. I NEVER said these people had a right to act violently but it's a fact that they do. Just like being alone in a bad part of town is using bad judgement. I stand by my post, don't engage in dangerous activities and it's highly unlikely someone is going to kill you just because you are trans.

BTW do these stats you posted Nygeel show I am wrong, that the highest % of people attacked were not sex workers or playing the pick up straights game?

I highly doubt that 44% of trans people are murdered as you seem to be claiming either in your quoted stats.. Twisting stats to scare people seems to be a common thing here. I'm not sure why people seem to embrace this idea than living as a trans is deadly. Maybe to reenforce their desire to be stealth or to just not deal with this?

Uh, I think you meant to quote someone else. I do think you engaged in victim blaming, but by and large my posts have defended your assertion that it's highly uncommon generally and most prevalent in sex workers.

Since I was never asserting statistics that don't ultimately validate your claim, I'll defend my assertion that you engaged in victim blaming.

It's like saying you're less likely to be raped if you don't dress provocatively. Ultimately, it may well be that scientifically, there's a lot of validity to that claim. but it's still not cool to say it. It conveys a sense of "you deserved it" to those who have been victim of sexual assault, by saying there's more they could have done to prevent it. Again, that may be technically true (that they could have done more in HINDSIGHT and NOT that they're in any way responsible), but it's a very cold, black and white way to look at it and I don't think it has a place on a support site in that kind of tone. Perhaps you just phrased it poorly. But I have no doubt there are people who go to this site who have been victims of assault and have been involved in the sex trade, and it's not ok to me to suggest that they have themselves to blame.

Their attacker is in the wrong, you and I both agree on that I'm sure. But I'm also sure you agree that you don't have to be in the sex trade to be victim to an attack, nor do you have to be transgender. I would suggest in the future, you can convey what you want without engaging in this sort of victim blaming form of doing it. Remember this is a support site, and while I have no doubt you don't truly 'blame' the victim. The things you say can have quite serious emotional consequences to some.

Just think about it please.

Just as dressing a certain way is more likely to get a person raped.
They do show that the highest percentage were people of color.I didn't say 44% of trans people are murdered. I said that trans people make up 44% of all murders from hate related violence in the US.


Jamie D, if the trans population is .3%, then (in theory) trans women would make up about .15%, and if the spread is even then about 33% are people of color, then that's .0495% of the population are trans women of color, and the number of murders towards trans women of color are incredibly disproportional.

None of that negates the actually sourced (in some cases with your own sources) statistics I've mentioned. You can't compare these things globally and then apply it to just the US. It's a very different demographic. And even if you did do that, you're not using statistically valid methodology.

Actually, "victim blaming" might not be a bad thing at all. At the end of the day, you're responsible for your own well-being. Even the police aren't responsible (see Castle Rock v. Gonzales).

We have to take certain precautions in order to keep ourselves safe. For example, if you live in the Bronx, you can't expect to be safe without locking your doors at night. You can't just keep it wide open and say "it's not my fault if people break in".

None of us are truly safe. And you're right that we should take precautions to ensure our own survival.

But victim blaming IS a bad thing for the reasons I gave above.

I've been a victim and I've been a victim of victim blaming. I won't go in to the specifics except to say it wasn't this particular example (transgendereds working in the sex trade being assaulted for being trans).

I don't believe the person who blamed me for what happened to me is right. But even if they are, I don't give a ****. What happened to me was WRONG, end of discussion. It's fine to discuss ways to protect yourself, and that's the right way to convey what I think you and stephe are ultimately trying to convey. But simply saying "Obviously if you did x then you're more likely to be a victim of y", even if it's true, is NOT the right way to go about expressing what you mean.

Again, this is a support site, and you may not recognize it but your posts can be triggering to some people and you should take very seriously that possibility and take on board alternative non-triggering ways of trying to say what you want to say.

Ok?

[Nygeel]

None of that negates the actually sourced (in some cases with your own sources) statistics I've mentioned. You can't compare these things globally and then apply it to just the US. It's a very different demographic. And even if you did do that, you're not using statistically valid methodology.

I'm using the statistic that people of color make up 33% of folks in the US to show how small the population of trans women of color in the US is (theoretically).
And since I'm not on my phone, I'm able to get you that source about hate crimes.
http://www.avp.org/documents/NCAVPHateViolenceReport2011Finaledjlfinaledits.pdf

[Stephe]

Sorry if I'm not clairvoyant and know everything that can trigger someone.

And while I do feel for anyone who has been injured, no matter what the cause, if lets say they were dressed real slutty and were walking through a secluded park alone late at night, I won't have as much sympathy for them as I would for someone who was attacked by someone who randomly broke into their home. It's not right that either person was assaulted but I believe as someone else stated leaving your door unlocked in a bad area of town, you can't be shocked if you find you have been robbed.

There are things people do that are known high risk and if they choose to do them anyway, they have accepted this risk. Anyone who thinks being a sex worker isn't a high risk job isn't thinking clearly. It's no different than someone who say climbs up in trees for a living, they are accepting the risk of falling out of the tree. Some people will choose to climb into the tree with no belt, that to me is asking to end up in the hospital.

 

[Asfsd4214]

Sorry if I'm not clairvoyant and know everything that can trigger someone.

And while I do feel for anyone who has been injured, no matter what the cause, if lets say they were dressed real slutty and were walking through a secluded park alone late at night, I won't have as much sympathy for them as I would for someone who was attacked by someone who randomly broke into their home. It's not right that either person was assaulted but I believe as someone else stated leaving your door unlocked in a bad area of town, you can't be shocked if you find you have been robbed.

There are things people do that are known high risk and if they choose to do them anyway, they have accepted this risk. Anyone who thinks being a sex worker isn't a high risk job isn't thinking clearly. It's no different than someone who say climbs up in trees for a living, they are accepting the risk of falling out of the tree. Some people will choose to climb into the tree with no belt, that to me is asking to end up in the hospital.

Clearly you and I have very different morals. Personally I find your position to be close minded, and extremely lacking in compassion.

Whatever, people like you are very common unfortunately, I get the feeling you have no clue or desire to understand what makes people do the things they do.

In fact, I'm so disgusted by your statement that you'd have less sympathy for someone because of that, that I have no desire to continue engaging in your posts. Clearly you have no desire to even recognize your behavior and don't care.

You say you're not clairvoyant... I think you mean that you just don't care so you don't think about it at all.

I'm using the statistic that people of color make up 33% of folks in the US to show how small the population of trans women of color in the US is (theoretically).
And since I'm not on my phone, I'm able to get you that source about hate crimes.
http://www.avp.org/documents/NCAVPHateViolenceReport2011Finaledjlfinaledits.pdf

Yes, I read it. My point was that your assertion of "The statistics are that transgender women (in the US) make up between 1%-8% of the LGBT community, are the victims of 44% of murders from hate violence in the US" is simply untrue. And the LGBTI related deaths on a yearly basis averaged listed in the report you linked to back up all the stats I've given so far. Which is that it's not true. We don't make up 44% of murders of hate violence. The data indicates violence related to race generally (not LGBTI affiliated) is far more common.