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Are trans women more aggressive than genetic women?

Started by apple pie, April 26, 2012, 09:12:36 AM

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apple pie

Quote from: Sephirah on April 27, 2012, 01:15:00 PM
As long winded as that was, the point I'm trying to make is that no matter what your biochemical makeup, a propensity for something isn't the same as an active expression of something. That testosterone may make someone more prone to aggression doesn't necessarily equate that everyone who's ever come into contact with it will inevitably turn out that way. I think personally that such traits are more habitual than inherent, and the expression of such is far more dependant on your core beliefs and philosophies, how you were brought up and how you see other people rather than what you do because it's hardwired into you. And in that, men and women (both cis and trans) are all blank canvasses, just waiting to be painted with life experiences which illustrate them as individuals beyond simply their sex.

...

Not sure if that made sense but that's just my personal view. :)

Yup I get your point! Basically, the difference may be due to the different environments we grew up in. (It's the same point that "Forum Admin" is making as well, I believe.) It's not necessarily because of physical differences at birth. Men and women, and trans women and cis women, may behave differently because of the corresponding upbringings that they have.

But what environmental factors cause the differences are probably not simple. For example, by the time I was in my final year of my maths course at university, only about 10% of my classmates were girls; everyone else was guys. That's despite the fact that there were twice as many female students as male students at my university; we even had more female science students than male ones.

It's not a matter of ability, because amongst those people I know who willingly do mathematics, the boys and girls performed pretty much identically. But the more advanced the courses are, the fewer the number of girls doing mathematics. Furthermore, girls who do mathematics overwhelmingly prefer applied mathematics over pure mathematics. (There was only one other girl doing pure mathematics in my final year. And only one female pure mathematics lecturer...)

So what factors are causing this difference? Social expectations? It doesn't seem like it. Many girls I knew in high school clearly genuinely hated mathematics, despite doing really well in it, but not the guys. Simply put, it seems to just be that girls like maths less than boys, and a lot less too generally speaking. Why is that?

And while I don't know any other trans mathematician / mathematics student yet, as a pure mathematics person myself, I belonged to this group that was 90%+ male. I think it is safe to say that other advanced mathematics courses at our universities have predominantly male membership as well. Thinking in terms of likely reasoning, it seems natural (and I've always feel tempted) to say that, well, having had a male upbringing / having been born male / other stuff associated with "male" is associated with ending up doing pure mathematics... doesn't it? Despite me being quite girly otherwise...

By the way, in cultural studies, something I'm now doing (yes, I know, nothing to do with maths at all, but anyway), there seems to be no contention that male and female are different. Gender differences in a very wide variety of situations are studied. They don't avoid suggesting that male and female are different...

Quote from: Skyanne on April 27, 2012, 04:31:20 PM
And yes, I would say that Tv program was racist. The actual study was performed on a culture unfair IQ test, and so highly slanted towards levels of education. Something white people have better access to. It was essentially non-sense, white power propaganda and is not taken seriously.

I did say the TV program was objective and well presented, didn't I? Why would you think that it'd present a study like that as truth, and that it concluded white people are smarter? If it did, there would have been an uproar over it, which there wasn't.

Sure, at some point, it did interview someone who insisted that white people are smarter (and that Asians are even smarter). But it was immediately followed by someone who explained the flaws in such a study, such as those you mentioned. If the program was racist, then so would what you just said be :P (The program was presented by a black person as well... not that it should matter)
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Sephirah

Quote from: apple pie on April 28, 2012, 04:07:08 AM
Yup I get your point! Basically, the difference may be due to the different environments we grew up in. (It's the same point that "Forum Admin" is making as well, I believe.) It's not necessarily because of physical differences at birth. Men and women, and trans women and cis women, may behave differently because of the corresponding upbringings that they have.

But what environmental factors cause the differences are probably not simple. For example, by the time I was in my final year of my maths course at university, only about 10% of my classmates were girls; everyone else was guys. That's despite the fact that there were twice as many female students as male students at my university; we even had more female science students than male ones.

It's not a matter of ability, because amongst those people I know who willingly do mathematics, the boys and girls performed pretty much identically. But the more advanced the courses are, the fewer the number of girls doing mathematics. Furthermore, girls who do mathematics overwhelmingly prefer applied mathematics over pure mathematics. (There was only one other girl doing pure mathematics in my final year. And only one female pure mathematics lecturer...)

So what factors are causing this difference? Social expectations? It doesn't seem like it. Many girls I knew in high school clearly genuinely hated mathematics, despite doing really well in it, but not the guys. Simply put, it seems to just be that girls like maths less than boys, and a lot less too generally speaking. Why is that?

And while I don't know any other trans mathematician / mathematics student yet, as a pure mathematics person myself, I belonged to this group that was 90%+ male. I think it is safe to say that other advanced mathematics courses at our universities have predominantly male membership as well. Thinking in terms of likely reasoning, it seems natural (and I've always feel tempted) to say that, well, having had a male upbringing / having been born male / other stuff associated with "male" is associated with ending up doing pure mathematics... doesn't it? Despite me being quite girly otherwise...

By the way, in cultural studies, something I'm now doing (yes, I know, nothing to do with maths at all, but anyway), there seems to be no contention that male and female are different. Gender differences in a very wide variety of situations are studied. They don't avoid suggesting that male and female are different...

That's very interesting, and made me think about what could contribute to the way a person is in relation to what they do and what they enjoy. Taking your example of mathematics, a subject I am largely apathetic about, lol, I was curious to find out what sort of factors could influence this difference in who studies it.

Something interesting I came across while doing a bit of research into it, which I would like to post and get your thoughts on:

From: http://www.nncc.org/curriculum/sac52_math.science.girls.html

QuoteWHY THE GENDER GAP?

Until recently, it was believed that male-female differences in math and science were caused by biology. In other words, girls' and boys' brains are different, so they are better suited for different things. The notion is that boys have superior spatial abilities, making them better suited for certain mathematical manipulations. Girls, on the other hand, are supposed to be better at language and writing. Evidence shows that boys do excel in math, and girls appear to do better in verbal-related skills. But are these differences a result of biology, or do other factors play a role?

More recently, researchers have focused on the influence of the social environment on children's math and science achievement. Very early on, boys are given the chance to tinker with toys or objects (for example, building blocks, Legos, racing cars, and simple machines) that involve many of the principles inherent in math and science. Girls often lack these experiences, so they enter math and science classrooms feeling insecure about their abilities. Girls then begin to believe they cannot do math and science as well as boys. This belief is consistent with a stereotype in our culture that defines math and science as male domains. That is, males are better suited for math and science, and math and science are more useful to males than to females. Also, personality traits attributed to mathematicians and scientists are associated more with males. Mathematicians and scientists are often thought to be competitive, achievement-oriented, and not very social.

Parents, teachers, or school counselors who believe these stereotypes are less likely to encourage or support a young girl's decisions to take math and science in high school and beyond. It has been found that when parents believe boys are better at math than girls, they are willing to let their daughters drop out of math class when the going gets tough. With sons, however, the same parents encourage persistence. In the classroom, teachers, often unaware of their own biases, call on boys more, praise boys more for correct answers, and are more likely to ask boys for help in science and math demonstrations. The message girls get is that they are not as good as boys.

It seems more complex, as you say, than saying it's because boys are built one way and girls another. If the above has any sort of merit, it would suggest that were girls treated in the same way as boys in terms of encouragement and/or percieved ability, that the difference wouldn't be quite so marked. And that suggests that it's not as a result of someone's biological "maleness" or "femaleness", or at least not in an overriding way. In other words nurture rather than nature plays a definite part in it.

Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Tori

Yes,

But...

This is a "chicken or the egg" theory.

For example:

Do men excell at math because of their upbringing, or are they brought up to excell at math because they do?

This is turning into a great discussion.



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apple pie

Hello again Sephirah! :)

Thanks for showing me the link! I somehow have the impression I've come across that page myself before. The science part seems a valid theory, but unfortunately, the math part doesn't really match my observations; let me explain.

Firstly, I did already have in mind that boys and girls may seem like they perform differently because girls are somehow discouraged from doing mathematics. So in my previous post, I was only considering the girls who clearly did well in mathematics; it happens that there was no shortage of such girls at my high school... (And as for the teacher factor, my maths teacher actually regularly picked the girls to answer questions more than the boys! Needless to say, the girls answered as well as the boys would)

Back then, I was in a really tightly knit group of five other girl friends plus me, and we always did everything together, from having lunch to sitting together during class, except when I HAD to be separate from them for sports etc. (since I was still living as a guy) In particular, we'd study together and discuss our school work together, so I knew really well how brilliant they were at mathematics (well, and at all the science subjects they were doing... they did better than me actually). However, they also expressed repeatedly their hatred for mathematics very strongly, e.g. "I SWEAR I'll never touch this stuff again after high school", whereas they didn't hate the other science subjects.

So what I was puzzled about was this: The girls at my school were doing brilliantly in mathematics, and had full confidence in their mathematical abilities. Yet they still passionately hated mathematics. Furthermore, it did not apply at all to science subjects; many of them even went on to do science at university. And as I said, there were actually more female science students than male ones at my university as well (though compared to the overall 2-to-1 female-to-male ratio for the whole university, there was still a considerably lower female-to-male ratio for science). And my girl classmates in maths at uni overwhelmingly did applied mathematics, as if the mix of mathematics and science appealed to them more than pure mathematics...

So it seems to me that this asymmetry occurs only in mathematics, and not other sciences; it doesn't seem to be a confidence issue either... So the page you linked to doesn't quite ring true to me for maths. Nevertheless, I think it is a valid theory for the difference seen in other sciences :)

So... what are other possible factors that cause so many girls to hate maths?

The page you linked to also mentioned briefly this "girls - language" association; I feel obliged to remark that I am actually as good in languages as I am in mathematics... but I haven't really thought carefully about what implications that might have yet. I am good at, and enjoy, logical mathematical operations, but I am also good at, and enjoy, writing well-polished essays. Did my upbringing encourage me to develop myself in language skills? It doesn't seem like it... In fact, in my early teens, I nagged my parents to let me learn two foreign languages outside school (since where I come from, they generally don't teach foreign languages other than English, unlike in Western countries); it wasn't my parents who wanted me to do so. I was in a boys' school at the time too (I changed schools later), so it wasn't influence from girls either. So why did I want to learn languages, and why did I do well in them, without obvious upbringing factors? Again, it makes me feel tempted to take the "easy way out" and make that brain difference argument thing, but I want to try to consider other possible reasons first...

Quote from: Tori on April 28, 2012, 06:36:00 AM
This is a "chicken or the egg" theory.

Totally off-topic, but not so long ago, there was a news article on BBC that reported a hen giving birth to a chick without first laying the egg. So, apparently the chick came first :D
(Don't worry I know what you mean)
I think it's not quite chicken-and-egg though. It doesn't feel like to me that parents encourage boys to do well in science only when they do well in it...
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Sephirah

QuoteSo... what are other possible factors that cause so many girls to hate maths?

Short of saying "you'd have to ask them", my honest answer is that I don't know. One thing I would say, however,  is that compulsory education where you don't choose what you study, you just have to do it whether you like it or not... well I don't think it's quite the same thing as education you choose to undertake. And often classes are taught to the lowest common denominator - so kids who are, shall we say, a bit smarter than the average bear... well, they feel a distinct lack of challenge and lessons are inherently unappealing to them. I mean, my maths teacher was a crashing bore. His voice was monotonous and his teaching style was akin to dragging your fingernails down a chalkboard. He did nothing to make maths fun. At all. So by the time I was done with the compulsory lessons, I figured the only way I'd be studying it further would be tied to a chair with a gun to my head.

Speaking from my own experiences of school, which are no doubt different to your own (and that's partly the point), it was actually the boys in my class which professed to hate maths. Mainly because the cool boys hated it, because they were of the "I come to school to work on my social life, not to study" types. And since the cool boys were, well, cool (apparently), the vast majority of the other boys tried to mimic this behaviour thinking it would make them 'cool' too.

Maybe that's a factor in your experiences. Peer pressure. Or maybe it's a cultural difference between countries. Or maybe celebrity culture. I don't think there's just one cause that links every single girl who doesn't like maths in school, or boys who do. I think if you asked each of those girls why they didn't like maths, they'd give you a different answer.

To illustrate, I found an article from one of the newspapers in the UK, talking about the situation over here (where I live). It made for fascinating reading and maybe you'd like to take a look at it. According to this article, the difference in girls and boys who study maths, while still marked, is nowhere near as striking as the one you're talking about. Which again may be a cultural difference or something else.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/maths-reform/9126371/Make-Britain-Count-Are-girls-really-worse-at-maths-than-boys.html

Dispite the title, the article talks about more than just aptitude. It's really worth a read.

This discussion is a prime example of why I try not to generalise and believe more that each individual is a complex amalgam of everything they've experienced, biochemistry, culture, beliefs, upbringing, those around them, emotional baggage and lord knows what else. It's fascinating to see how other people think and feel about things.

QuoteSo why did I want to learn languages, and why did I do well in them, without obvious upbringing factors? Again, it makes me feel tempted to take the "easy way out" and make that brain difference argument thing, but I want to try to consider other possible reasons first...

Maybe neurological factors do play a part. I don't know for sure. Maybe you watched tv shows in foreign languages and wanted to learn them, or saw pictures in books of the countries associated with the languages and that instilled a desire to learn them... or maybe knowing that  since you couldn't learn them at school, it would have to be something you did on your own initiative. Maybe it was a display of independence and an affirmation of growing up, taking responsibility for yourself.

As for why you did well in them. It could just be, as I suspect, that you're a highly intelligent individual.

Who knows, other than you? And that's really I guess the point I want to leave this on. That's the reason we encourage people to see a therapist when dealing with gender issues, on a one-to-one basis, so that how everything relates to that particular individual can be explored and decisions reached free from generalisations, bias and stereotypes. Issues can be explored on a deeply personal level, integrating the physical issues associated with dysphoria, for example, rather than just the mental issues of what constitutes being who you are.

The best any of us can do is theorise and hypothesise about why this or that may be the way it is. Short of getting inside someone else's head, experiencing their emotions and living their lives, that's really the best we can hope for. And while it makes for fascinating discussion, as in this case, the final say on whether someone is one thing or another lies, in my opinion, with the individual themselves.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Nero

I wonder if this plays a role in the girl/math issue: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heidi-grant-halvorson-phd/girls-confidence_b_828418.html
Girls are led to believe their skills are innate; when something isn't readily solved, they may assume they simply aren't good at it. Math has more 'problems to be solved' that may take a few tries than less tangible subjects like language.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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