Grandparents and the "gay abomintation"

[ffern]

So I was talking to my grandma and as it does, homosexuality comes up i.e. my grandma comments on something on TV showing how its alright to be gay, and they are corrupting the children etc, you know how that goes. Now in everyother respect she is on of the most awesome and nice people I know.  So I tried to challenge her on it, by asking whats wrong with it, and i get told "cuz the bible says so, its an abomination", or words to that effect, I asked her which parts, and whether she had ever eaten shellfish (leviticus has a prohibition against it close to the dont lie with another man part) and she just got all defensive.  I kinda dropped it then because it didnt really seem like it could go anywhere from there.  It just makes me so fustrated, and like if i ever do come out to her (as trans or bi) it will be the last time i see her.  It makes me want to read through the bible just to point out all the things that she does that are against the bible, or how hypocritical it is be so homophobic when she would be the first to say something about racism and probably having to go through similar social ostricisation just for the colour of her skin.  and just for the words that are no longer cuturally relevant, and up to 4000 years old in someplaces, and with so much lost in translations, its just so urrrrrrrrrrrgh!.  She asked me if I had read the bible, and i had to answer no, though i have read all the well known bits in question and around on the interpretations and possible biases on them, but not haveing read the whole damnable thing idont really feel like i could argue back.   maybe i need to do some reading. [/rant]

[spacial]

Hugggs

[justmeinoz]

It's a long read, probably best just to find a site on the net that answers all the anti-gay and anti-trans quotes. There are plenty of them.
Hugs darl.

[SourCandy]

I don't even think it's worth arguing with Grandparents. You aren't going to "win."

I think a lot of people are in the same boat with grandparents. I for sure am.

[Sephirah]

Hon, in my opinion, using the Bible to justify why homosexuality is wrong is like using Through The Looking Glass to explain why mirrors are evil.

The trouble is, it's often used as a divine way to justify a very human belief and/or predjudice. A way to prove someone is right in what they think about the world. And in that, all the arguing in the world is futile, because for every piece of common sense you can come up with, they can find some interpretation of an obscure passage which 'proves' you wrong. As you say, such folks pick and choose which tenets they want to follow and which they conveniently ignore. It's right when it can be interpreted to agree with their own philosophy, but outdated when it doesn't. And whilever people think they have The Almighty backing them up, well... sometimes it's best to just realise that you don't need to argue back. It's up to her to learn to think for herself and question her own predjudices rather than you to try and prove that her 'evidence' is extremely suspect.

If there's one thing I've learned here and in the big wide world, it's that you can't control or change other people's core beliefs and philosophies. Only examine and try to understand your own, and how they relate to the wider world. When she actually meets a gay person in the flesh, and sees that they are, in fact, not an abomination, and turn out to be one of the nicest, friendliest people she could ever hope to meet... then, maybe she will begin to question. It's easy to condemn from the comfort of an armchair.

We live in hope. But until then, here's a big hug from me *megahug*.

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

Nothing against your Grandmother or her beliefs, but some of greatest atrocities in history were based on religion.  Those who hate will hate.  Those who discriminate will discriminate.

You have to decide what is best for you, no one else can.  Take from someone who lived to please others, I just isn't worth it.  You can still love them, just forgive them for their fallacies.  You can not change their minds, only they can.

Best quote ever.   "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up"

[ffern]

thanks for the hugs, I know that there's probably no changing their attitudes realistically, and it probably doesnt help that its still illegal barbados (where she's from).  it's just so fustrating (and rant inducing apparently) and makes me want to do something even if it wont work.

[Beth Andrea]

Years and years ago, I used to study the bible (mainly for my own interests, ie angels etc).

I learned early on that there's ALWAYS someone who's read more, or knows more, or is fluent in relevant languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc) and can fly circles around any position you care to name.

They don't do it to help you learn, they do it to make you conform to THEIR interpretation.

I never learned much from other Christians, that's for sure. Best to just leave them where they lie (pun intended).

[Jamie D]

I don't even think it's worth arguing with Grandparents. You aren't going to "win."

I think a lot of people are in the same boat with grandparents. I for sure am.

I remember my grandmother, who was a young adult in the Great Depression and WWII, was absolutely beside herself when I bought a Japanese-made car, a Nissan Sentra, after getting out of college.

Old prejudices die hard.

[King Malachite]

"Even the devil can cite a scripture for his purpose."

I've had a similar talk with my mother on the topic of homosexuality.  She said it's against got and I asked her if she could tell me the exact chapter and verse and she froze up and said something like "I wouldn't know because I haven't read the Bible so I can't answer you."  When my dad told me that being transgender is against God I asked him if he could point out the exact chapter and verse and he EXACTLY said these words: "Nope, start from Genisis and work your way up."

I don't know if you have seen this but I will send you the video to "The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality".  It's over an hour long but this man who is a homosexual takes a deeper look into the Bible quoting almost every scripture that made it appear that homosexuality is wrong and take's them apart piece by piece going in depth to each and every one of them.  He has studied this for a long time.




The next video clip was extracted from West Wing that you may be interested in. 




You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.  The best thing you can do is be knowledgable in the subject to combat any fallacies one may bring. 

[suzifrommd]

When approached with this sort of attitude, it's easy to forget a key fact.

OUR PLANET NEEDS GAY PEOPLE!!!

It's not just nice to have them around (though it is.) Homosexuality doesn't just add color to an otherwise drab society (though it does).

HOMOSEXUALITY IS VITAL FOR THE SURVIVAL OF OUR SPECIES.

Humans find themselves locked (for biblical and other reasons) into rigid ways of thinking that lead the toward dangerous places. We need gay (and other different-thinking folk) to continually remind us that there are other ways to do things and think of things. People like that are not always welcome. But societies that can't welcome them, are DOOMED.

Why is it that every society on earth seems to have a significant percentage of gay people? Because societies that, for whatever reason, cannot maintain a gay community, perish, swallowed up by communities with more open minds.

[Kitty_Babe]

I read the bible in and out over the years, and its often one of the most miss quoted books in history. Plus people can use sentences from the Bible to twist them to what ever beliefs they want, to justify, social prejudice, and intolerance.

[Sephirah]

I read the bible in and out over the years, and its often one of the most miss quoted books in history. Plus people can use sentences from the Bible to twist them to what ever beliefs they want, to justify, social prejudice, and intolerance.

Reminds me of a scene from Red Dwarf, in the show titled The Last Day, when talking about Kryten's belief in Silicon Heaven:

Lister: No offense, Rimmer, but that is completely wacko-jacko.

Rimmer: Everyone's entitled to their beliefs, Lister. I never agreed with my parents' religion, but I wouldn't dream of knocking it.

Lister: What were they?

Rimmer: Seventh Day Advent Hop-ists. They believed that every Sunday should be spent hopping. They would hop to church, hop through the service, then hop back home again. You see, they took the Bible literally - Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple, took it word for word. Unfortunately, their version had a misprint. It was all based on 1 Corinthians 13: "Faith, Hop and Charity, and the greatest of these is Hop." I tell you, Sunday lunchtimes were a nightmare. Hopping round the table carrying soup - we all had to wear sou'westers and asbestos underpants.

...

The Almighty, if it exists, may be infallible... but people, unfortunately, are not.

[lilacwoman]

When approached with this sort of attitude, it's easy to forget a key fact.

OUR PLANET NEEDS GAY PEOPLE!!!
HOMOSEXUALITY IS VITAL FOR THE SURVIVAL OF OUR SPECIES.

minds.

If that were the case then Sapphos would be a very advanced civilization instead of a very short lived lesbian holiday resort.

Its not Leviticus that said not to eat the shellfish - Gordon Ramsay said not to on telly last night as the stuff goes off really quickly.   But I think shellfish was to Leveiticus the way apple was to Eve.

[Lynne]

I'm just going to stick this here:

On her radio show sometime prior to 2004, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant
Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22,
and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an
open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the
Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge
with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of
God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.
The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable
expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

Anonymous

[suzifrommd]

homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22,
and cannot be condoned under any circumstance

Actually, literal translation of the Leviticus passage only makes in an abomination if it happens in a woman's bed. In all other places, it's perfectly fine.

It also speaks only of a man lying with another man. It has no problem with lesbians.

[CosmicJoke]

if we're supposed to do what the bible says, then why aren't all these adulterous women getting rocks thrown at them?

[Jamie D]

Because it's no longer 1300 BCE.

[CosmicJoke]

Because it's no longer 1300 BCE.

which is why, other than burning these books, ffern is not going to have much luck trying to change this grandmother.

[Mr. Tentacles]

It's times like these that I am so thankful for my supportive family. I have my suspicions about my grandfather's disapproval... but if so, he keeps it to himself.

At any rate,

which is why, other than burning these books, ffern is not going to have much luck trying to change this grandmother.

I gotta agree. Just hang in there, it's a tough situation.
Someday you may have to have a heart-to-heart with her and come out, and if/when that happens, I wish the best. She might surprise you.