What are our Obligations

[stephanie_craxford]

Read the following topic and then come back and answer the questions:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,1190.0.html

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Not withstanding the argument for and against "when are you a woman?", I think that most Governments accept you as a woman when the surgery is complete, up until that time I don't think you can get the gender marker changed on your passport.

Be that as it may...  Some questions:

1.   What obligation, if any, do you think we are under to ensure that our transition doesn't disrupt others who may come into contact with us ?

2.   Would it have been right or wrong for Sarah West to have ensured that airport officials where aware of her situation before attempting to board the flight ?  Do you think that had airport officials been aware of Sarah's situation maybe the incident could have been avoided ?

3.   Should Sarah have had a current passport picture that reflected her current appearance ? [/b]     For example, while serving with the U.N. in the Middle East, in 1992, I started my tour of duty with a mustache (Eeeeew) and about two months in I decided to shave it off (can't remember why).  Normally we had no problems crossing the boarders between Lebanon, Israel, and Syria, however on this particular day a really keen Syrian border guard checked my identification and noticed that all the pictures showed someone with a mustache, and the person standing in front of him didn't. You wouldn't believe the trouble it caused.

Something to ponder,

Steph 

[Leigh]

 


Not withstanding the argument for and against "when are you a woman?", I think that most Governments accept you as a woman when the surgery is complete, up until that time I don't think you can get the gender marker changed on your passport.


A temporary passport will be issued valid for one year upon the State Dept. receiving a letter from a Dr. stating that you will be traveling for surgery.  Afterward it is ammended and is permanent.



1. What obligation, if any, do you think we are under to ensure that our transition doesn't disrupt others who may come into contact with us ?

This will go against the majority but so be it.  Absolutely no obligations if the person behaves properly.  If there is a problem its theirs, certainly not mine.  I have neither the time, energy nor desire to appease those who disdain me!

2. Would it have been right or wrong for Sarah West to have ensured that airport officials where aware of her situation before attempting to board the flight ? Do you think that had airport officials been aware of Sarah's situation maybe the incident could have been avoided ?

Telling officials that in effect you will be traveling in disguise?  I would think this would be just painting a huge target on yourself.  If when traveling and you know your ID is going to be verified then do it in the gender that is legal.

3. Should Sarah have had a current passport picture that reflected her current appearance ?

Which presentation?  Male of female?  You could do one or the other but not both.

When someone is in trantision completely or done, it is much easier in many ways.  There is no ambiguity in paperwork or presentation

[AmyNYC]

I think that most Governments accept you as a woman when the surgery is complete, up until that time I don't think you can get the gender marker changed on your passport.

New York State will allow you to change your gender marker on your driver's license anytime before surgery, providing you have a letter from your therapist, and a letter from your doctor.

And Leigh answered the US Passport question, but I'll clarify from what I know.  The temporary passport will have your chosen gender marker.  And according to the passport agent I spoke to on the phone two months ago, you do not have to be going for surgery.  I specifically asked her, "Do I have to provide you with proof of surgery, such as a date."  She replied by reading directly from her screen.  You must have a letter from a "medical doctor" stating that you are being treated for transsexuality, and then she added that she saw nothing concerning surgery in the requirements.

2.   Would it have been right or wrong for Sarah West to have ensured that airport officials where aware of her situation before attempting to board the flight ?  Do you think that had airport officials been aware of Sarah's situation maybe the incident could have been avoided

It seems as though the airport officials had been informed.  The agent who checked her in, and the gate agent who allowed her to board the plane must have known what was going on, just by looking at her passport.

The situation would have been much more acceptable had Sarah been told in advance that she would have to change, i.e., at the check-in desk, or before she boarded.  I think that was what Leigh was getting at as well.

I flew American Airlines in August with a male passport.  Nobody questioned me.  Everyone did a huge double-take, then studied my features VERY closely, but never said anything.  Remember, not only did my gender not match the passport, but the picture was taken when I was 17, and I'm 24 now, so I looked a lot different, gender not-withstanding.

[Leigh]

 

And Leigh answered the US Passport question, but I'll clarify from what I know.  The temporary passport will have your chosen gender marker.  And according to the passport agent I spoke to on the phone two months ago, you do not have to be going for surgery.  I specifically asked her, "Do I have to provide you with proof of surgery, such as a date."  She replied by reading directly from her screen.  You must have a letter from a "medical doctor" stating that you are being treated for transsexuality, and then she added that she saw nothing concerning surgery in the requirements.

Having been through the passport thing, you were told wrong.

[AmyNYC]

...according to the passport agent I spoke to on the phone two months ago, you do not have to be going for surgery.  I specifically asked her, "Do I have to provide you with proof of surgery, such as a date."  She replied by reading directly from her screen.  You must have a letter from a "medical doctor" stating that you are being treated for transsexuality, and then she added that she saw nothing concerning surgery in the requirements.

Having been through the passport thing, you were told wrong.

Well, obviously you are right, since you've been "been through the passport thing" in the past two months.  Oh wait... no you haven't.

I'm sorry.  Your post just struck me as a little matter-of-factly, as though there was no chance on earth that policy could have been changed since you transitioned.  I do agree, however, that telephone operators have a tendency to not know what they're talking about, so I won't bet my life on getting my gender marker changed right now.  I'll just have to wait & see (& pray).

[Susan]

Ladies please take a step back before posting. This isn't personal and you shouldn't take it that way or make your posts seem that you are. We are friends and family here and so we should act accordingly

Well, obviously you are right, since you've been "been through the passport thing" in the past two months.  Oh wait... no you haven't.

[AllisonY2K]

1. What obligation, if any, do you think we are under to ensure that our transition doesn't disrupt others who may come into contact with us ?

This will go against the majority but so be it.  Absolutely no obligations if the person behaves properly.  If there is a problem its theirs, certainly not mine.  I have neither the time, energy nor desire to appease those who disdain me!

ITA. The only obligation we owe is to ourselves. We cannot ensure that our transition won't disrupt others because it will. You're changing from one gender to another...that's a major disruption. It's going to be a disruption. There's no way to ease that blow.

[LostInTime]

I used to travel quite extensively but not since I have transitioned to fulltime.  However, there were still some issues that I ran into but I was never asked to leave a flight or other nonsense.  But I did learn a few things (like there are some way cool airport people who would look at me and my ID and still call me Ma'am or Miss (traveled as boy or as close to it as I could come and the DL was not changed)) along the way.

 
Obligations.  I have an obligation to myself to live how I see fit providing I do not infringe on the civil liberties of others.  My mere presence or appearance, as long as not being inflammatory, is not enough of an excuse IMHO.  Carrying on or wearing inappropriate clothing can be a valid concern.  One that I never run into since my regular dress is pretty nice for office wear or daily errands (I do stick out grocery shopping though.  Think I am the only woman that has on makeup and knows how to wear clothing that compliments my figure).  My extreme stuff like my leather items I wear only at leather/fetish events, not in vanilla space.


Awareness or needing to draw attention to one's self.  If you do not match your ID then it is up to the person who is checking it to ask.  If they do not then one may assume that they are aware of such people as us in the world and that all is well.  I was never questioned at an airport, even right after 9/11 even though my license had an old picture on it (circa 98) and my regular appearance at that time was andro at the best.  Interactions with law enforcement was good as well, even when I was in full femme mode (unplanned interactions prior and right around going FT).  They let her on the flight.  If there were any questions prior to the boarding it is on the agency/company doing the screening.  A supervisor could have been called up and questions discreetly asked and answered.


Updating photos on male ID (for M2F TS).  Have it replaced with a rather in between shot.  Many of us grow out our hair, thin the eyebrows a bit, etc.  Once I updated my male ID with a bit more femme photo then most of the issues I had at clubs and all disappeared.  It was obvious it was me sans makeup. 


All of the above is just my humble opinion based on my own personal experiences.  YMMV.

[Leigh]

NPIC, Passport" <NPIC@state.gov>  
To: " XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: RE: Gender marker
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:59:27 -0400

   
Customers who have undergone, or are in the process of undergoing, a gender reassignment can have passports issued to reflect their new gender.

These customers must submit:


1.  Evidence of Citizenship

2.  Evidence of identity

3.  Photographs which reflect a good likeness of their current appearance

4.  Fees

5.  Medical documentation that they have either undergone gender reassignment surgery or that
      they are preoperative transsexual and will soon have the surgery.   The medical
      documentation for a post-operative transsexual should be from the surgeon or hospital that
      performed the surgery.  Preoperative transsexuals should provide a detailed statement from their medical (not psychological) physician which outlines their treatment


If you have further questions, please email us at NPIC@state.gov.   Please include all prior messages or correspondence in your reply so that we may know what has taken place previously.  If you prefer, you can call us at (877)487-2778.  Our contact center is open Monday through Friday 7:00AM-12:00AM EST.

Thank you. 053
National Passport Information Center

[Northern Jane]

It would seem that the basis of the problem had little to do with transition and a whole lot to do with presenting a passport containing a picture that doesn't look like the ticket holder. Even minimum wage rent-a-cops can be expected to react to that. It would have been wise to have an appropriate passport picture even if the indicated gender seemed to disagree with the picture.

I travelled from Toronto Ontario to Loveland Colordao for SRS in male attire, with a male passport and all male I.D. in 1974. After surgery, I gave away all my male clothes and changed my appearence.

The folly of this enthusiasm occurred to me as I was approaching Canada Customs at Toronto airport a few weeks later. All I had was male I.D. and I certainly didn't look male! 

I had been chatting with a gentleman on the plane (who had also flown out of Denver), so I stuck close by his elbow as he entered the lineup first. As I hoped, the customs officer assumed we were together and passed me right through! 

"Plan ahead" - good moto!!!

[AmyNYC]

5.  Medical documentation that they have either undergone gender reassignment surgery or that
      they are preoperative transsexual and will soon have the surgery.   The medical
      documentation for a post-operative transsexual should be from the surgeon or hospital that
      performed the surgery.  Preoperative transsexuals should provide a detailed statement from their medical (not psychological) physician which outlines their treatment

I received my new passport.  The gender is marked female.  The only documentation I provided was a letter from my MD.  The letter basically says I am under his care for GID, the next stage in my treatment is the real life test (which is a prerequisite to SRS), and "it is requested that she be extended all accommodations as a female, including name change and designation on her documents as female.  Your cooperation is much appreciated."

Before mailing the application, I spoke on the phone to three separate reps from the Passport Information Center.  All three said the same thing, that a date for surgery is not required.  Simply provide a letter from you MD stating your treatment.

With the new passport I also received a letter from the Department of State, which says if I have GRS within the next year (when the passport expires), simply send documentation of that and they will issue a regular ten year at no charge.  It also says if I haven't had GRS before the passport expires, simply renew the passport as anyone would.

[Shelley]

As I am a public servant I guess I am more aware of this than most but does anyone here also find it quite normal to be treated differently on the same matter by different people within the one government department let alone different offices or states.

Opinion shopping is a common passtime down under you just keep trying different people until you find the answer you are looking for.

Shelley