mentally " male" or mentally " female "

[mementomori]

do people really feel like either sex internally ? to me ive always just seen it as what you'rephysically comfortable with being  and wether the brain and the physical body are in harmony and if they arent generally you seek to change them to feel comfortable

but when it comes down to it i've never internally seen myself as " male" or " female " internally  from a physcological aspect
i dont really know if i believe there is a male or a female brain but i do believe the the brain has a associtation to the physical body and its functions  and believe sometims the associaion hasb een wired   to  have a female body and its functions when you feel you are biologically male or vice versa

i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

but the associate with your physical body and wether you feel its in harmony with your mind is something thats inate and youre born with

sorry if this didnt make any sense

[pretty]

i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

Lol, well personally I feel like too many people are trying to reduce transition into a purely cosmetic procedure in order to qualify an innate masculinity. 

[mementomori]

Lol, well personally I feel like too many people are trying to reduce transition into a purely cosmetic procedure in order to qualify an innate masculinity. 

the things that are deemed feminine or mauscline in terms of dress etc  variate between cultures in the west for years its generally been seen that wearing jewellery is ' feminine "

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1890/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1890-29605.jpg but in other cultures  thats entirely unrelated to if your a " man" or a woman"

[PrincessKnight]

Honestly, I've never really seen myself as male or female. I've always just been me. And I happen to be fairly boyish, with girly tendencies. I've never played with Barbies, I've never really wanted to wear dresses that badly (though I've always liked girls' shorts and shirts). But I'm just not really comfortable with a male body. Mentally, I'm a little androgynous, and though being male doesn't really clash with my personality, it does clash with how I feel I should be.

[Kelly J. P.]

 I'm not sure if I'm mentally male or female, but I'm more comfortable being female. Therefore, transition has been and will continue to be, in all probability, beneficial to me. I prefer being female, and I enjoy being feminine.

I have always just sort of been... never acted out gender stereotypes.

I am me, in the end, and a part of "me" is doing what makes me happy. I'm not sure anything else matters in this case.

[pretty]

the things that are deemed feminine or mauscline in terms of dress etc  variate between cultures in the west for years its generally been seen that wearing jewellery is ' feminine "

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1890/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1890-29605.jpg but in other cultures  thats entirely unrelated to if your a " man" or a woman"

If you happen to locate a culture where the women are the aggressive, dominant, territorial providers and the men stay home, beautify themselves and do the crafts and child rearing I'll be pretty legitimately taken by surprise. 

I don't see how it is any different in tribal Africa, which is about as remote a culture you can get from any other culture in the world, where the men make weapons and hunt and go through rites of bravery, and the women make crafts and food and compete over beauty.

But honestly I feel like this is a seriously silly thing to need to establish because, are there actually people that believe it's just a coincidence of culture that if I ask you which gender likes power tools and explosions more you immediately know the answer?

Really I just wanna puke when people tell me I like the things I like because culture says women are supposed to like that. As if I could just be raised into liking sports and sports cars. Well ya know what? I was raised into that and I don't and never did like them at all.

[mementomori]

If you happen to locate a culture where the women are the aggressive, dominant, territorial providers and the men stay home, beautify themselves and do the crafts and child rearing I'll be pretty legitimately taken by surprise. 

I don't see how it is any different in tribal Africa, which is about as remote a culture you can get from any other culture in the world, where the men make weapons and hunt and go through rites of bravery, and the women make crafts and food and compete over beauty.

But honestly I feel like this is a seriously silly thing to need to establish because, are there actually people that believe it's just a coincidence of culture that if I ask you which gender likes power tools and explosions more you immediately know the answer?

Really I just wanna puke when people tell me I like the things I like because culture says women are supposed to like that. As if I could just be raised into liking sports and sports cars. Well ya know what? I was raised into that and I don't and never did like them at all.

there a a lot of cisgendered females that hate the things you just described about female cultural constructs and behaviour but love being female physically and males who wants to make crafts and compete over beauty that like having a male body

youre describing social constructs , i think transition should be looked at " if they social constructs were removed would i still desire my body to be this way "then if so yes defiantly do it

but you dont change your body to conform to society and to be able to behave or live youre life a certain way thats considered socially innapropriate for your sex

there are also transwomen who hate makeup and dresses but feel like they always were meant to be physically female because of a incongruity between their brain and body
i just think gender dysphoria / ->-bleeped-<- is a lot more than socially constructed behaviour and dress habits
a lot of those behavrious your described are based around the breeding rituals and habits of ancient man as a modern society i feel like were beyond those things 

[pretty]

there a a lot of cisgendered females that hate the things you just described about female cultural constructs and behaviour but love being female physically and males who wants to make crafts compete over beauty and compete over beauty that like having a male body

youre describing social constructs , i think transition should be looked at " if they social constructs were removed would i still desire my body to be this way "then if so yes defiantly do it

but you dont change your body to conform to society and to be able to behave or live youre life a certain way thats considered socially innapropriate for youre sex

there are also transwomen who hate makeup and dresses but feel like they always were meant to be physically female because of a incongruity between their brain and body
i just think gender dysphoria / ->-bleeped-<- is a lot more than socially constructed behaviour and dress habits
a lot of those behavrious your described are based around the breeding rituals and habits of ancient man as a modern society i feel like were beyond those things

Well you're kind of making my point here. You can't raise cis women into liking a specific thing just because they should and you can't raise cis men into liking a specific thing just because they should.

People just like what they like.

Then we can define things as masculine or feminine (and to what degree) by looking at aggregate data of what men and women happen to like.



A lot of people get confused over the idea that "well women don't ALWAYS like such and such which is a feminine thing." But that's not the point, the point is that women are more likely to like a thing that is feminine (that's why it is feminine), and women on average like more feminine things than they do masculine things.

This even applies to things that are not on a level of being culturally obvious. For example, reading fiction novels is encouraged equally in both sexes, but women are a slight majority among readers of fiction novels.

Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

[Kelly J. P.]

Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

[pretty]

Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

Well, no, I totally understand why someone would want to believe it, but at the same time I don't think it is fair to treat it as a reality when there's no real precedent for its truthfulness and also when it makes light of the experiences of trans people who have suffered severe distress as a result of being placed in a gender role that was very seriously in contrast with their own personality.

I feel like I can't make that point to people because if you don't know how it feels to live your whole life being told you're not allowed to be the kind of person you are, and to feel firsthand the kind of personal and emotional isolation that that causes, then you probably won't take it seriously when other people say that that was their experience. 

[mementomori]

Well, no, I totally understand why someone would want to believe it, but at the same time I don't think it is fair to treat it as a reality when there's no real precedent for its truthfulness and also when it makes light of the experiences of trans people who have suffered severe distress as a result of being placed in a gender role that was very seriously in contrast with their own personality.

I feel like I can't make that point to people because if you don't know how it feels to live your whole life being told you're not allowed to be the kind of person you are, and to feel firsthand the kind of personal and emotional isolation that that causes, then you probably won't take it seriously when other people say that that was their experience. 

people can feel distress about being put in a gender role thats wrong for them mentally but at the same not feel uncomfortable with their biological sex / genitals etc

i mean just look at someone like holly woodlawn she has lived her entire life socially and culturally as a woman but wouldnt want srs if you payed her to do it and actually stopped taking hormones becuase it distressed her when she could no longer get erections

gender ismt  binary thats all im saying its a lot moe complicated than it appears and everyone over simplifies it

[Kelly J. P.]

 I would assume it's not treated as a reality, but rather as theoretical knowledge, or opinion. The expression of that opinion is a way to test or temper the theory. Because of this, then ... most probably understand your point.

... In theory.

Of course, I could be wrong... it's possible that people see their beliefs as [universal] truth. I don't really know, but when I have views I could disclaim all of them with the word "probably".

I'm glad I wasn't put into strict gender roles. I grew up, and all I did was play with my sister and do good in school. And listen to emo music.

[mementomori]

Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

i dont just " want' to believe it , i do believe it , im sure there are a lot of people who dont have gender dysphoria about their physical bodies but repress desires to act out behaviour or dress thant stereotypically associated with the opposie sex

what im saying this behavior / social construct and wether you like it or not is irrelevant to wether or not you feel incongruity with your brain and your physical body

im sure there are lots of people who have misassociated a distate for the gender role society has constructed for them and projected it onto a distain for their physical bodies ,

but then there are people who regardless of gender roles , have a mistmatch between their brain and the wiring/ association of it to their physical bodies

but at the end of the day i dont think it really matters as long as people find a place/ a point they get to where they can be happy

[pretty]

people can feel distress about being put in a gender role thats wrong for them mentally but at the same not feel uncomfortable with their biological sex / genitals etc

i mean just look at someone like holly woodlawn she has lived her entire life socially and culturally as a woman but wouldnt want srs if you payed her to do it and actually stopped taking hormones becuase it distressed her when she could no longer get erections

gender ismt  binary thats all im saying its a lot moe complicated than it appears and everyone over simplifies it

Well, honestly, on the more strictly physical side, I think you're getting into issues that, while they do exist, are not encompassed by the definition of GID and are not what GID was defined in response to. 

You can't really call it "gender identity disorder" if there is no issue with gender identity. Then it's BDD, or something in that vein.

[mementomori]

Well, honestly, on the more strictly physical side, I think you're getting into issues that, while they do exist, are not encompassed by the definition of GID and are not what GID was defined in response to. 

You can't really call it "gender identity disorder" if there is no issue with gender identity. Then it's BDD, or something in that vein.

so what youe saying is you could have gender identity disorder while feeling completely ok with your physical body , wouldnt that make it more a social thing though than a physical thing ?

i mean what about a transwomen who wants to shave her head and wear bike boots/ spikes and lots of leather . but has always felt gender dysphoria about having a male body and felt it was supposed to be female so has surgically corrected herself

generally i thought the idea was being born the wrong sex for the mental wiring of your body , not a socially percieved idea of gender normal behaviour and dress

for example my aunt is obssesed with v8 cars she has won body building competitions and never wears makeup and lives in shorts/ pants and singlets

she is a cisgendered women doesnt feel as though she is a man in a womans body becuase she doesnt fit the social construct of a what a woman is supposed to be

[GhostTown11]

do people really feel like either sex internally ? to me ive always just seen it as what you'rephysically comfortable with being  and wether the brain and the physical body are in harmony and if they arent generally you seek to change them to feel comfortable

but when it comes down to it i've never internally seen myself as " male" or " female " internally  from a physcological aspect
i dont really know if i believe there is a male or a female brain but i do believe the the brain has a associtation to the physical body and its functions  and believe sometims the associaion hasb een wired   to  have a female body and its functions when you feel you are biologically male or vice versa

i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

but the associate with your physical body and wether you feel its in harmony with your mind is something thats inate and youre born with

sorry if this didnt make any sense

I'm up there with you. I'm not really sure how you can be mentally male or female.

If you're biologically male isn't all your behavior, by default, male behavior? Even if you put on pink dresses that behavior still would be male wouldn't it? And vice versa

[GhostTown11]

Well you're kind of making my point here. You can't raise cis women into liking a specific thing just because they should and you can't raise cis men into liking a specific thing just because they should.

People just like what they like.

Then we can define things as masculine or feminine (and to what degree) by looking at aggregate data of what men and women happen to like.



A lot of people get confused over the idea that "well women don't ALWAYS like such and such which is a feminine thing." But that's not the point, the point is that women are more likely to like a thing that is feminine (that's why it is feminine), and women on average like more feminine things than they do masculine things.

This even applies to things that are not on a level of being culturally obvious. For example, reading fiction novels is encouraged equally in both sexes, but women are a slight majority among readers of fiction novels.

Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

Hmm, this is interesting. So, in your eyes, what sort of change should transition be? Or what causes people to transition?

I mean it can't be purely physical, that's BDD and BDD and gender dysporia are eerily similar. However, the mental health professional doesn't entertain the patients very skewed ideas about their body image.

Would it be social? But I have a hard time believing that there is something in the brain that is just hard wired to be called "she". We have an amazing ability to learn language when born, but we don't come with a dictionary in English inside telling us what she and her and girl things even mean.

Is it sexual? For some, I think yes, even for some here. However, if they get to the point where they're on hrt, I think this no longer becomes an issue as the death of their libido will have them off hrt very soon.

Internalized misogyny/homophobia/misandry? Too simplistic, and participate in a "blame the victim" mentality.

Feel free to correct, since, as psychology has shown us, hardly any of it is "hard science".

[Padma]

I think there's no one defining characteristic for transition, because there are so many different kinds of woman (we're talking MTF here, so I'm talking about women).

I experience myself 'somatically' as female (by which I mean that my mind feels me as having a female body - kind of hard to explain), and I'm helping my body to catch up with that by transitioning.

But I'm neither masculine nor feminine in my sense of self, I'm kind of a dykey boyish woman (this is why I coined the term Womandrogyne for myself ) and I like the things I like. Some of them are more commonly liked by women than by men, some the other way around. As for clothes, I like women's clothes in the same way many other bi-lesbian women do - I wear women's clothes but they're not feminine.

Femininity doesn't define a woman, being a woman does that, and there are so many ways to be a woman.

[Edge]

If you happen to locate a culture where the women are the aggressive, dominant, territorial providers and the men stay home, beautify themselves and do the crafts and child rearing I'll be pretty legitimately taken by surprise. 

The one I grew up in. I'm really tired of people acting like it doesn't exist or that it's so surprising. I wouldn't say it's particularly desirable (some aspects are, some not), but I used to think it was the same in all the western countries and I still find it shocking that it's not. (Financially, not many people can afford to stay home though.)
Not to mention that what you described is very prevalent in many mythologies although that's more in individuals and archetypes than the culture. Also many war goddesses were less providers and more homicidal maniacs (ex: Sekhmet). That and craftsmen include blacksmiths.

[Padma]

It wasn't Sekhmet's fault - she was written that way .