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Re: Re-wiring of our brains to female

Started by kim58, July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM

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kim58

Hi everyone,  I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen.  Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound?  Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor?  Just how much will I really change?
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: kim58 on July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Hi everyone,  I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen.  Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound?  Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor?  Just how much will I really change?

Fact is you can't trust the replies you get to questions like this, placebo effect means it can range from nothing to extremely profound.

If you don't expect yourself to change very much mentally, as I didn't, it might well not be very significant.
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crazy old bat

Personally, my brain hasn't really seemed to do much different than before hrt and I've been doped up on estrogen for almost 9 years. I think in a lot of ways transition and hormones helps a person to drop some inhibitions on feminine feelings and behavior that they built up over years, so things may not change so much as just being able to really express who they were all along.

As for a feminine manor, I would suggest hiring a good interior designer.

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peky

Quote from: kim58 on July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Hi everyone,  I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen.  Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound?  Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor?  Just how much will I really change?

The rewiring is very individual specific. In may case some things changed and something did not. Shortly after starting HRT, a sense of profound calmenss invaded my soul, very pleasent indeed; that is considering that I am a Hurricane, you know type A personality.

My perception of beauty changed somehow so as to notice some nuances that before went unnoticed.

Emotions, emotion, emotions. I have always been very emotional, romantic, dreamer, well, all those characteristics have  been enhanced and magnified.

Talk, talk, talk, another "virtue" that has become uber enhanced. I used to talk to my daughters, now we are chatter boxes, LOL

I look at the boys with a different eye, but still  girls are my main cookie, ;)

Sugar, sugar, sugar. I used to be a meat and meat kind of gal, now, did you said chocolate?

I have never thought of myself as "seductive," now I enjoy the lascivious looks of the boys, hum. Nice to be eye candy.

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peky

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 18, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
Fact is you can't trust the replies you get to questions like this, placebo effect means it can range from nothing to extremely profound.

If you don't expect yourself to change very much mentally, as I didn't, it might well not be very significant.

Brain rewiring by HRT, in people with GID, is a medical fact.
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Asfsd4214

Quote from: peky on July 18, 2012, 01:33:58 PM
Brain rewiring by HRT, in people with GID, is a medical fact.

I didn't say it wasn't. The brain is a plastic organ, constantly changing and being influenced. More accurate is to say the brain structures shift in proportions to more female patterns, which is I suppose just another way of saying rewiring is going on. But I digress.

I didn't say it has no brain effect. What I meant to convey is that regardless of the physiological processes you are undergoing, your subjective experience of them can vary so wildly that in my opinion, a lot of peoples experiences are more placebo than biological influences caused by the HRT itself. Maybe I'm wrong and for some reason HRT has more neurological effect on some than others. Maybe some peoples neurology is more already feminized than others, it's too complicated a subject to say for any individual person.

But ultimately it comes back to the same thing, it can vary from virtually nothing to very profound, whatever the reason behind it may be.

The placebo phenomenon is a very real medical fact too, capable of creating seemingly 100% real experiences. The line between chemistry and psychology, perception and reality, is very very blurry.

It is highly likely that if you were in some way expecting a profound mental change of some sort, your mind will create one regardless of it being the drug or not.
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Miharu Barbie

I became a much better driver.... and it seems like my aim improved when firing left-handed from a moving vehicle.
FEAR IS NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!


HRT:                         June 1998
Full Time For Good:     November 1998
Never Looking Back:  Now!
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kim58

Thanks everyone for your input.  I guess I'm just a tad bit scared about the unknown path ahead and about what I can expect.  As well as how profound the changes I might incur. 
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Adrasteia

FWIW http://aebrain.blogspot.com is written by an Aussie (iirc) rocket scientist with a late-onset intersex condition who transitioned mid-life. She's got a great scientifically-oriented mind, so you will find many links to research and articles if you browse her blog.
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peky

Quote from: Adrasteia on July 18, 2012, 02:40:28 PM
FWIW http://aebrain.blogspot.com is written by an Aussie (iirc) rocket scientist with a late-onset intersex condition who transitioned mid-life. She's got a great scientifically-oriented mind, so you will find many links to research and articles if you browse her blog.

Zoe Brain is a software engineer, that does not qualifies her as a rocket scientist. There are no rocket engineers, the closer you can get is to have a PhD in propulsion engineering or aeronautical engineering. LOL

She seems to be more interested in intersex, nevertheless, she has a nice blog. Thaks for the link
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Kadri

You know, for some reason I thought she was a "rocket scientist" too...and I work less than ten minutes' walk from where she does. I guess the power of the words "rocket science" is more powerful than the truth sometimes.

As for the subject of the thread, I found that the hormones made me less aggressive, but then again it might have been that transitioning just made me less irritable about life in general.

I get terrible mood swings that may be verging on bipolar II...but really not sure yet. These existed before, but they come with more intensity now. I find if I recognise deeply negative thoughts as the results of mood swings  it is easier to control them.

I've heard people telling me how much they like bright colours now...I can't tell any difference myself.

Like Peky, I like getting looked at....

I thought I would like men after taking hormones, but after a while they just made men smell funny to me (not all men, but a lot of them).
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pretty

Uh well 9ish weeks in I can report 0 mental changes whatsoever.
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Padma

Mind and body are pretty intertwined, so it can be a bit of a dead end trying to guess which changes (when there appear to be changes) are caused by endocrine changes, and which are caused by how we feel about changing, etc. etc. Enjoy the ride!
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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Julie Wilson

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 18, 2012, 01:47:34 PM
It is highly likely that if you were in some way expecting a profound mental change of some sort, your mind will create one regardless of it being the drug or not.


Lots of folks haven't a clue what is highly likely or not.

That is why it is better to share experiences than to lay down the facts.

for instance...

I remember back when I first started exploring transition and taking Internet hormones.  I remember how I had to always know what the deal was.  I remember thinking how a trans woman will always be trans and how not telling sexual partners right up front was a huge lie of omission.  Because I was projecting and part of my male hormonal biology (etc.) equaled my having to always know what the "reality" was.  I thought I could look at anyone else's situation and make an accurate judgment on it based upon my knowledge of reality and my willingness to look boldly at the facts.

The reality was I was full of myself (and full of crap).

Transition occurs on a biological, sociological, body and brain level and it can be pretty damn profound.  It may not seem profound right away because it probably isn't.  Transition didn't become notably profound to me until after I accidentally had sex with some guy without telling him first that I was an always trans transsexual woman and in that experience I accidentally found myself being wholly accepted as a woman.  After that experience I had an epiphany.  I was a woman.  And I began to believe in myself as one on a very real level, one that came through experience, not through thinking.

What I realized after that was a person cannot transition and anticipate what is around the next corner.  the reality is that some things are out of our control and we can put on our big girl panties and deal with it (when it happens).  The fact is I could type in this box all day and it won't mean anything to anyone who hasn't had a relevant experience, one that he or she can relate from because little words on a website don't mean anything.  Experiences mean everything.

It is highly likely (based on my having begun transition around 2000 and having been on websites like this for some time) that someone who is anticipating huge mental changes from transition is just as likely to be disappointed.  The placebo effect may play a role in the very beginning of transition but after a while bull->-bleeped-<- gets old and people tire of fooling themselves.  They run out of energy and who can have the same level of fascination and drive for something month after month, year after year.

I know some people are pretty good at fooling themselves but most often I honestly believe that people are best at fooling themselves into thinking they know what other people are experiencing when they haven't even had similar experiences.

I would say my mental changes have been pretty big.  For instance... I am no longer aroused visually, say for instance porn.  It doesn't matter how good the porn is, it does not affect me like it did prior to transition back before 2000 and the changes were gradual and welcome.  I remember before transition when looking at porn it was like porn had a hold of something deep inside my chest, it had a power over me, a strong pull and I tended to be it's puppet.  Now it has virtually zero power.  I can recognize beauty but beauty or sensuality do not give me the drive to engage in sexual activity, except perhaps every nine or ten days perhaps.  (I am single).  I can look at really beautiful, amazing porn and then easily walk away (no effort or will involved) and do something like rake my yard or go for a walk and not even think about sex.  Those are some pretty profound changes.

Also it may seem like I need to be right or like my opinion matters but really it doesn't.  I do want to share my experience with people occasionally, because I think people should be open to possibilities but I will happily admit that I have been wrong about things and my being "right" about my own experiences doesn't equal being "right".  It just equals my own experience.  Feel free to have an entirely different experience.  I will say however I don't think people are as complex as they like to think they are.  And I don't believe we are all that different, maybe we are at different places in our lives and that can be huge.  Different places, different situations...  Makes for big differences, differences of opinion, etc.

And after I had sex without disclosure and had my epiphany (that I was female) and after some years went by (like seven years or so since that experience) I find myself where I am today.

And I have gotten to the point lately where I could give a toot what I am.  Lately when my father uses my legal name I feel like it is all a big joke.  Like I feel guilty that he is making an effort to remember my name and use the right pronouns because he has to make an effort.  It doesn't come naturally to him at all and I should have moved away from here, suffered my losses and gotten over them and not wasted my life.  But now I am stuck here as ever.  And I have reduced myself to being the pretend woman that people have to make a conscious effort to use the right pronouns with.  Just today someone I used to work with over fifteen years ago and have known for 25 years and who knew about my transition since I went full-time over seven years ago (a year after having SRS), he referred to me as 'he' twice in my presence.  There is no reality in that.

I am so tired of other people's "reality".  I wish they would all take their "reality" and stick it.  They think they know what I feel and what I really am and they haven't got a clue in Hell.  All they know is psychological projection.

And they don't change.

Their reality never changes.

It is always the same crap every day.  "We have to pretend Noey is a woman, don't forget to use the right pronouns because it is so hard to remember."

Find your reality.  Read Don Miguel Ruiz, 'The Four Agreements' if it helps and learn about psychological projection because it's HUGE and it is what makes the world go round and round the same old crap way.

QuoteProjection concerns externalizing the issues that we need to deal with ourselves. Usually we project onto others issues and problems that we need to address within ourselves, or are unable to manage properly. Projection is irresponsible behavior as we dump our problem onto somebody else. We justify these projections by blaming someone or something outside for the emotions we do not want to feel. We project our disappointments and problems onto other people, it is somehow their fault, we become a blamer. Ultimately it is the person who projects that loses, as they never really sort out their own problems.  http://karlrwolfe.com/psychological-projection.html

I remember my dad when I was little telling me how gays had to experience such terrible humiliation in order to do the things they did.  He reasoned that it was the terrible humiliation they experienced from their sex acts that caused them to hate themselves and commit suicide.  Because my father was projecting his own feelings onto gays.  He didn't realize that it was how Society treated gays that caused so much of their problems and not some sex act humiliation issue.

Some white folks over the years have projected their fears and hate onto black people, coming to the conclusion that black people hate whites, etc., because those white people couldn't own their own fear and hate so they project it into some other culture and that other culture (blacks, etc.) become a way for some whites to hate their hate by blaming someone else for having it instead of owning it and dealing with it.

On a forum like this sometimes we like to figure out what someone else's deal is.  What their life is really like, how they are fooling themselves...  When really perhaps we just haven't had that experience yet but instead of realizing that we haven't had that experience for ourselves we might try to deny someone else from having that experience.  That way we don't have to own our own lack of experience because we just nullify someone else or try to discredit them or take away their experience by saying it is bunk.

Projection is huge.

Going back to my "epiphany" experience, the one that caused me to realize I was a woman, a female...  Prior to that I used to say I was a woman all the time but it was a way to convince others I was a woman or protest my situation and my need to transition and be done with it.

Learning I was a woman became like climbing a tree.  I learned quickly when I first began climbing trees what they felt like and I learned that if I let go I would fall to the ground.  I learned there were certain rules.  Sometimes when I am atop a very high building or bridge and I lean over the edge there is a very real sensation I feel like the marrow in my bones is aching because even if I am not thinking about it, my body knows and remembers that if I were to jump off that tall building or bridge there would be a very real result of that action.  My being a woman is like that now.  I could care less what other people think, I know I am a woman and honestly it isn't up for debate because it just doesn't matter.  Someone else's belief wont change falling out of a tree and it won't change me.  Some things just are.  And some people can reason all they want and theorize all they want but when I lean over that guard rail my bones are going to ache and I am going to have a sensation in my chest because that's the reality of it.  My being female is the same sort of reality.  People can think they know better than me, they can think I am crazy, they can think that I am just the pathetic ->-bleeped-<- who wants to be called "she" but what they don't realize is I am done giving a rats ass.  And it's the same about everything else.

Quote"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"  ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

QuoteGo confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.  ~Henry David Thoreau

When we are very quiet and do not determine what is or how things are possibilities may abound, the uncertainty factor can take effect and we can experience something new.
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peky

Quote from: Kadri on July 19, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
You know, for some reason I thought she was a "rocket scientist" too...and I work less than ten minutes' walk from where she does. I guess the power of the words "rocket science" is more powerful than the truth sometimes.

As for the subject of the thread, I found that the hormones made me less aggressive, but then again it might have been that transitioning just made me less irritable about life in general.

I get terrible mood swings that may be verging on bipolar II...but really not sure yet. These existed before, but they come with more intensity now. I find if I recognise deeply negative thoughts as the results of mood swings  it is easier to control them.

I've heard people telling me how much they like bright colours now...I can't tell any difference myself.

Like Peky, I like getting looked at....

I thought I would like men after taking hormones, but after a while they just made men smell funny to me (not all men, but a lot of them).

You and I, Girl! I thought it was just me. Before E men smell foul, I could not stand in close quarter with them, and the smell does not have to do with hygiene. Now, almost a year later, some of them do not smell bad! What does this mean? BTW my sense, already very kin, has been enhanced by E.

So, yeah, happy rewiring everybody!
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UCBerkeleyPostop

Re: Noey's post and non-disclosure sex.

After SRS, even though I am a lesbian, I had several "test-runs" with men, no one ever questioned my status and this was incredibly empowering.
It was about nine months before I had my first "undisclosed sex" with a woman and this was even more empowering. After that, I stopped thinking of myself as being trans and just simply female.

As far as "mental changes" I remember noticing colors were more intense and I was more able to "stop and smell the roses." After awhile, I just started feeling more "normal."
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Adrasteia

Quote from: peky on July 18, 2012, 06:11:59 PM
Zoe Brain is a software engineer, that does not qualifies her as a rocket scientist. There are no rocket engineers, the closer you can get is to have a PhD in propulsion engineering or aeronautical engineering. LOL
Quote from: Kadri on July 19, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
You know, for some reason I thought she was a "rocket scientist" too...and I work less than ten minutes' walk from where she does. I guess the power of the words "rocket science" is more powerful than the truth sometimes.

That's what I get for posting in a rush!  It's been a while since I followed her blog; I had much more time for perusing neuroscience articles when I worked for the gov't.
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vlmitchell

Wow... some good posts in here. Regarding 'mental changes', you're probably talking about perception or emotional change. I'll simply give my run down of what's happened to me so far (2.6 years in).

- Perception is constantly macro instead of micro (wide field vs narrow field)... this caused a couple of accidents.
- Boys smell yummy... really... really... yummy.
- Girls now no longer have an automatic 'sweet' smell.
- Not immediately able to determine if I like the way a girl looks. I *can* be attracted but I have to give a crap.
- I'm more emotionally sensitive to many things but in a different way. Not an anger response but instead a sadness response.
- I do *not* get angry as easily and when I do, I feel like I'm having a conniption fit instead of wanting to rip someone in half.
- Visual lock for boobs and butts is gone. Don't have to worry about eyes snapping to inappropriate places.
- Porn is useless. Text is awesome.
- Physical sensation of sexual arousal is different.
- CHOCOLATE!!! OMG!
- Tactile sensation is more important. I feel more needs to touch things to connect with them.
- Certain flavors are much more appealing now (didn't like onions, now love them)

I'm sure there's more. That's just the stuff that I can remember from the top of my head. This will definitely be a YMMV kind of issue though. As mentioned, placebo effect is a factor as well as sensitivity to estrogens as opposed to androgens.

If you've got your letter, and you've got a real doc (DO NOT DO IT THE OTHER WAY!), enjoy the ride. It's crazy!
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crazy old bat

I don't think my sense of smell has changed other than if a guy has been sweating much, it pretty much just stinks to me.  I told one guy the other night that he smelled like a skunk, not sure if he took that well or not, lol.  I do know that my usual filters for stuff I say aren't all functioning as they used to, but that could be that I'm more comfortable around most people these days so I do and say more things without over thinking them so much.

I never liked porn, so no change there. I never much cared for sex, no change there. I do get almost no headaches when those were an almost daily occurrence before hrt. I'm still good with spatial stuff and fixing things. I care more about my appearance, but that has a lot to do with feeling a need to present myself well so I'm not seen as the freak thing that I am. I like little dogs more when before I couldn't stand them, but I think that has more to do with finally having my own little terror than anything else.

So I think most of the changes for me has been primarily physical.
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Rising_Angel

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on July 19, 2012, 06:45:00 AM

People can think they know better than me, they can think I am crazy, they can think that I am just the pathetic ->-bleeped-<- who wants to be called "she" but what they don't realize is I am done giving a rats ass.

Noey just got added to my list of meaningful quotes!  The Buddha, R.W.E, Twain and Noey!

I totally agree.  No one can tell me what I hear, see, feel, touch or taste.  Those senses are in ~me~, speak to ~me~.  I find it so sad that we don't have that same confidence about the feelings we have inside us.  They're all felt by same thing - our minds ... our external senses are merely electrical impulses, nothing different that our internal senses, so why put so much emphasis on the external?  Why must we disbelieve what we ~feel~ but accept what we are exposed to?

Other people can get hung up on being told what their Truth is, personally, I'll go find my own.

Insist on yourself, never imitate. ~RW Emerson
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