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Confused: FTM vs Butch?

Started by Zoidberg, July 28, 2012, 02:40:09 AM

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Padma

What this also makes me think is that there are some people who'd like to be a bit of both. It's not a strict requirement to be either a man or a woman.
Womandrogyne™
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justmeinoz

I was talking to a lesbian friend this weekend and the difference came up in conversation.   She found that she tended to switch from Butch to Femme when she was first exploring what it meant to be a lesbian, but eventually found that she was comfortable with the masculine side of her personality.
She is now quite Butch, but only ever sees herself as a woman, although after spending time with another transwoman and myself had wondered where she would settle as she drifted from a feminine presentation.
She understands when I say that I have to change my body to be comfortable with myself, but as she cannot make the conceptual leap to the same place; is now quite clear that she could never see herself as a man.

It could be that you are, for want of a label that isn't one , Genderqueer.  By that I mean that your identity simply doesn't fit any of the existing labels, and you will make your own space in the Gender Spectrum.   
As we are all individuals that is a perfectly reasonable view of the world as far as I am concerned.  It is one that I am partially wearing at the moment, thanks to many of the local Lesbians having trouble being around someone with a male history.  I am not sure I want to be associated with people that have that attitude, so I will describe myself as something else.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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dalebert

Quote from: justmeinoz on July 29, 2012, 07:13:49 AM
...thanks to many of the local Lesbians having trouble being around someone with a male history.  I am not sure I want to be associated with people that have that attitude, so I will describe myself as something else.

I know someone like that, sadly. She identifies as a butch lesbian. FWIW, I've been talking to her about it and she seems to be making great progress and becoming much more accepting of the identities and choices of others.

She was very confusing to me for a while. She seemed very upset by what she perceived as a trend of FTMs, like she was losing people from "her community". She felt the need to reiterate to me several times how she never had any plans to transition (but she has a tendency to repeat herself in general). Claims she felt pressure from people to transition. She said that because she presented so masculine, people would assume she wanted to transition and she kept having to correct people. I tried to make it very clear that I never made any such assumption about her and that I had never misgendered her.

What was so confusing to me though is that she doesn't seem offended when she's misgendered as a man. She even seems to be flattered by it. It's just that it took me a while to figure out where she was coming from. I think I finally got it--that she's very comfortable as a very masculine woman, but definitely a woman and very proud to be a woman. When people misgender her, she corrects them politely, with a little humor even, but actually seems to kind of get a kick out of it rather than get offended.

eli77

Quote from: Padma on July 29, 2012, 05:09:33 AM
What this also makes me think is that there are some people who'd like to be a bit of both.

Or neither. >.>
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Padma

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2012, 09:01:09 AM
Or neither. >.>

Hence my use of the word "some" :). And you don't have to be "butch" to be in touch with your masculinity.
Womandrogyne™
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Nygeel

Trans women can be butch (but they cannot be trans men).
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aleon515

I've never identified as butch, because I'm not a lesbian. But I have always felt a little male. Since I have found out I was transgender, I am now not sure whether I am ftm or genderqueer. I know of someone who still identifies as genderqueer, but got top surgery, is taking T (and definitely looks male), etc. I believe she could have been described as butch before.

I dress entirely male and have been identified male for a few seconds, which makes me very happy. I hate being called "ma'am" with a passion. So in a lot of ways I have many things in common with people who totally identify as ftm.

I've thought of this as f towards m, in my own case and right now. I am sort of on a merry ride (though not always so merry?) and don't know where this all will lead.

You might read the androgyne forum. There is a LOT of variety in that group. Right now there is a discussion of people who do think of themselves as non-binary and are taking some sort of physical therapy (hormones and/or surgery). I'm actually a bit surprised how big that group is.


--Jay Jay
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wheat thins are delicious

Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 11:47:00 PM
SLO Fox you mean? I just thought you might be quoting me. I think as a woman. I have watched many (but not all her videos). She introduces herself as Allison. I think she gets mistaken for a guy and doesn't mind it. She has talked about restroom issues because of her male appearance.

--Jay Jay

Can you link to SLO Fox?  My searching isn't finding anything. Thanks.


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poptart

One of the main differences is the social aspect. Even though butches can't relate to most women in the sense of femininity, they still consider women the same sex and interact with them as such. Even though they relate better to men, they still treat men like the opposite sex. They wouldn't be able to function socially if they were expected to react like a guy when dealing with people. The opposite is true for FTMs - it's "women and other men" to them instead of "men and other women".

Butch is just a very masculine variation of a woman. Superficially similar to an FTM but fundamentally different because FTM is a male with a birth defect.
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Ayden

Quote from: dalebert on July 29, 2012, 08:52:52 AM
She was very confusing to me for a while. She seemed very upset by what she perceived as a trend of FTMs, like she was losing people from "her community". She felt the need to reiterate to me several times how she never had any plans to transition (but she has a tendency to repeat herself in general). Claims she felt pressure from people to transition. She said that because she presented so masculine, people would assume she wanted to transition and she kept having to correct people. I tried to make it very clear that I never made any such assumption about her and that I had never misgendered her.

What was so confusing to me though is that she doesn't seem offended when she's misgendered as a man. She even seems to be flattered by it. It's just that it took me a while to figure out where she was coming from. I think I finally got it--that she's very comfortable as a very masculine woman, but definitely a woman and very proud to be a woman. When people misgender her, she corrects them politely, with a little humor even, but actually seems to kind of get a kick out of it rather than get offended.

I have a friend almost exactly like this. She is a wonderful person, but felt threatened by the "rising trend of lesbian transitioners". Granted, I could sort of understand, since sadly Butches are treated terrible where I lived.

The difference in my mind is fairly simple (though, this is an oversimplification of what both groups experience). Butches are women. They deal with a lot of body shame, but at the end of the day, they are women. FTMs are male. We deal with body shame on a different level in that it doesn't match who we are, so we take steps to change it and present as the men we are.
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aleon515

Quote from: Andy8715 on July 29, 2012, 04:32:44 PM
Can you link to SLO Fox?  My searching isn't finding anything. Thanks.

Sure. I think she does very good thoughtful videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSLOfox/videos

--Jay Jay
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Icarus389

I guess my main problem is that I don't necessarily feel like a guy, but I don't feel like a girl. I'm more comfortable with strangers identifying me as male, and I've wanted top surgery since I learned of it, but to fully transition feels like a leap I'm not sure if I'm ready to take, but due to having to function in society, I think it would be the easiest option to take hormones.

To put it bluntly, I've never wanted a penis, but I want the benefits of society that come with having one, a flat chest, and facial hair. I don't feel like that makes me FTM, and I don't think I could be fit into the butch category either.

Genderqueer is a wonderful term and I love what it stands for, but you can't make a living or have a healthy life by living in between the lines. I've tried for years and each day just gets harder.
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Arch

If you ARE androgyne, genderqueer, bigender, or one of the other non-binary types of people, then you still have to decide whether you want to be legally male or legally female just so you can get by in the world. So the legal aspect is a case of the lesser of two evils. Choose the one you are most comfortable with? If you have top surgery, you can change your documents or not change them. It's up to you.

You don't have to go on T, but it sounds like you sort of want to. If you do, you can start on a low dose and see how it goes, or stop and then start, or whatever.

But, unless I misunderstand you, this comment seems pretty telling to me:
QuoteTo put it bluntly, I've never wanted a penis, but I want the benefits of society that come with having one, a flat chest, and facial hair.
I would advise you to think very carefully about all of this (I'm sure you have been doing so) if you are interested in transition JUST for the social benefits of being male and not because you identify as male or identify as something other than simply female. Are women not treated with respect in your family/community/city? Could you get some or most of the social benefits by moving or training or augmenting your education?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Padma

From what I understand, not all trans men want a penis anyway, so that's not necessarily a valuable criterion - but as Arch says, you need to suss out for yourself whether or not you feel that you're a man.
Womandrogyne™
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aleon515

I agree with Arch on this. If this is really it, which I am not entirely sure of, I think you could regret your decision. Yes, people do end up regretting it. Not too many people, but it happens.

I agree how hard it is to live on the end between. I find it very hard sometimes. There ARE people who do transition making a full transition and still identify as genderqueer. But they do it for reasons of feeling very dysphoric in their own body (wondering if this is me). Some people do hrt for a short period or chest surgery only for the same purpose. There are good reasons and bad reasons to do this, and I agree with Arch that social status maybe that is not so good a one.

Sometimes women have a rough time in our society but there are problems that men face as well such as higher amts of violence, being less able to show their feelings, etc. etc. Each gender has it's gender stereotypes and straightjackets as well. Males for instance are less able to wear female clothes, whereas women are free to wear male clothes. Be careful what you wish for.

A book you might enjoy reading would be The Testosterone Files. It talks a lot about the social and emotional consequences of T. He is happy how he is, but I don't believe he sugarcoats anything.

I agree re: the penis. I have mild downstairs dysphoria. But it is not overwhelming.
Compared to our sisters, very few transguys have that surgery due to the expense, and that not everyone is happy re the alternatives.

--Jay Jay
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dalebert

Quote from: Icarus389 on July 30, 2012, 01:27:03 AM
To put it bluntly, I've never wanted a penis, but I want the benefits of society that come with having one, a flat chest, and facial hair.

I can relate to that. I don't want a woman's body but there were times when I'd have traded societal benefits with them--if I could have stayed male-bodied but be treated like a woman by society... somehow. Hypothetically, obviously. Sometimes I feel that when gay men obsess over str8 guys, maybe it comes from this sort of desire--not to have a woman's body necessarily, but simply to be treated like a woman in the traditional sense. It's almost like an emotional rather than physical dysphoria. I certainly wouldn't say I have it strong enough to call it dyshporia though. I've actually adapted pretty well to my situation and grown into my culturally-defined man-ness.

Berserk

Quote from: Nygeel on July 28, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
Butches tend to identify as women, and identify as butch. They also present and identify themselves as being masculine. Some do have a level of discomfort in their own skin and I know of at least one person who IDs as butch and has had top surgery.

Trans men identify as men. They present and identify themselves as male but do not necessarily identify themselves as masculine. Nearly all (I really don't want to say all due to the fact that there might be somebody who doesn't fit this) have discomfort int heir own skin, and would like to socialize as male.

Butch is a far more complex identity then a lot of people who have never associated with the identity or sub-culture realise. Butches are not always woman-identified (or necessarily lesbian-identified), though many certainly are woman-identified. But some butches identify as neither female or male, genderqueer or genderfluid. Some also identify as male without identifying as transmen or trans-anything. Some identify as both transmen and butches.

The problem with trying to create fixed identity labels is that they never really work. You'll always be dealing with human beings who are diverse and can't be shoved into little boxes, and every person sees their identity as different from the next even if they share the same "label."

Butch can be just as much a sex/gender identity as transman, btw, to those who have stated otherwise.

If you want to know the difference between butch and transmale then ask a butch and a transmale...then ask another butch and another transmale...and another and another. And from each one you might very well get a different answer, and some of them might identify as both butch and transmale. Just know who you are. Don't depend on little boxes to know who you are or try to shove others into them. Just be yourself.
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insideontheoutside

I think it's kind of human nature to want to be part of something or identify with something or with other people.

That said, I also think a lot of people truly just want to "be themselves". There's people who identify their gender as female (and they're physically female) yet they feel more comfortable with short hair and wearing male clothing. If those same people are also sexually attracted to women I think that's basically butch. But I feel that butch is just another label ... another identifier for people to cling on to and be a "part of" something.

I think a lot of guys who end up being transsexual (FTM) may explore a lot of different things. Especially if you're over a certain age. Like back in the 80s and 90s (and certainly before that) you might have heard of a male to female transsexual, but it was likely that you hadn't even heard of trans anything. Like I had no idea trans even existed. So if you happened to be female-bodied but didn't identify like that you were pretty confused. I don't know if it's actually better now because really there's just more options to be confused by!

All you can really do is experiment and try and find what actually makes you feel happy and confident and comfortable in your own skin.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Icarus389

Quote from: Arch on July 30, 2012, 01:58:40 AM
I would advise you to think very carefully about all of this (I'm sure you have been doing so) if you are interested in transition JUST for the social benefits of being male and not because you identify as male or identify as something other than simply female. Are women not treated with respect in your family/community/city? Could you get some or most of the social benefits by moving or training or augmenting your education?

I didn't necessarily mean social standing by being male, but being treated as male. When I'm waiting for the bus downtown and a homeless person approaches me and see me as male, he doesn't harass me. Or when a gas station attendant looks at me after I've bought beer and she smiles at me and talks about how young I am cause she didn't actually read my license. In most situations with men, when I'm taken as female, they see it as a personal challenge to themselves which ends in a confrontation.

If I moved to another area, perhaps it would be better for me, but I've been living in a decent sized city with a large LGBT community, so I didn't really expect it to be as difficult as it has been. I've been unemployed for most of a year. I work in the service industry and have years of experience and good recommendations, I can get dozens of interviews, but as soon as they see me and realize that I'm not a man, I don't get the job.

I've been considering taking T for around 7 years, carefully weighing my options. I think one of the reasons I haven't is because I've been thinking "What if they realize I'm trans and I can't get a job?" but at this point it doesn't seem to matter.
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Arch

Thanks for responding. I understand your position a little better now. And of course I should recognize that if people peg you as a masculine woman, they are more likely to give you trouble than if you were stereotypically feminine.

Your question--what if they think you are trans--is one that many of us worry about. If you aren't always passing now, then you would probably go through a transition phase--I call it an androgynous phase--before you start passing fully. That period can take months or even years, but once you get through it...well, things are usually much better. But you almost certainly have to go through it, unfortunately. If your worries about that outweigh your desire to transition, then maybe you just haven't gotten to the point where you must transition--or maybe transition, even partial, isn't right for you.

All of this is very helpful, I'm sure. ::)

A trans friend I know used to ask undecided people, "What if you could transition now, just instantly transition, and be guaranteed that you wouldn't lose family, friends, job, home, or anything else you value? Would you do it?" I guess he uses that question to separate the people who don't want to transition from the people who do want to but who are held back by fear. Does that question help at all?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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