Is Androgyny just the first step to full transition?

[Pica Pica]

To go back to the original question.

Is Androgyny just the first step to full transition?

No it's not. But it can be.

[Chrys Alys]

Expression becomes a way of saying, "Yes, I am".
Exactly where I am at this point. After many years of knowing and honoring who I am, but not expressing it outwardly via clothing, name, I'm now living openly as Z. Some might call this "transition" or "full time", I prefer to think of it as simply living in full truth of who I am. I have no end goal, other than perhaps achieving happiness. If during this process I decide to medically transition, I don't see that as changing my feeling of being outside binary gender. Of course, the only thing constant in my life is change... so don't quote me on this 

Zythyra

I can understand how you feel. I have worn much clothing that doesn't suit who I am and shows nothing about my sex/gender. Once I can feel comfortable in my own skin, I will be able to explore my style and my expression!

[Taka]

but what is a "full transition"?
is it changing your sex from one to the other? or is it become 100% yourself in body as well as in mind?

and why do we even use the word "transition"?
it makes me feel like becoming something one was originally not. but if i am simply me, and then change into someone who is still me... how can that be called a transition?

anyway... if we define "full transition" as something like "changing the body so it reflects one's inner self" (since that's what i see many girls, guys, and androgynes here do, or at least try to do. i may be wrong though, since people's perceptions of the same thing is so often not the same). well, then the original question would become logically impossible.
androgyny isn't a look, it's being androgyne. you could say that androgyny relates to androgyne the same way as transsexuality relates to transsexual. and i wouldn't really want to say that being a different gender is a first step on the way to getting a body that is unfit for this different gender, though suitable for the gender that the person in transition is before and after transitioning but unfortunately not in the beginning of the process. (if you got confused by this, then that would illustrate how illogical the way of thinking that the question would imply seems for me)

androgyne is a gender, one type of an inner self (kinda vast though, and poorly defined) just the same as man and woman. if we for simplicity say that androgynes generally want an androgynous looking body, then wouldn't a full transition for an androgyne be quite different from what it is for a transsexual? though i do understand that a transexual might want to try the androgynous look and explore androgyny when they start transitioning. i also think this might be a good thing, trying to get to know oneself better without rushing too much

i hope someone got at least half of what i was trying to write...

[ativan]

We speak of aligning one's body to their gender as transition.
For non-binaries, this is none to a lot. It varies.
So, it's not defined very well.
Androgyn's are defined in a vast way, but I wouldn't say poorly.
If a cis male or female is scrutinized as much, the definition would be vast in it's own way.
Transition in the context of this thread is full transition from either MTF or FTM.
The question was asking if one's gender could be Androgyn in the process.
The answer is no.
But a person who assumes they are Androgyn, might discover that they are indeed Transsexual.
So then the answer would be yes.
You are also very correct that peoples perception of the same thing is so often not the same.
The trouble starts with the language. It's binary.
It's kind of like asking to describe Quantum Physics using only the language of Cosmology.
Perception is key to agreement in what is. But people also have a knack for interpretation.
Which is key to being able to describe something well enough for the other person to grasp the concept.
Being non-binary or Androgyn is often talked about in a conceptual way.
Perceptions are often not the same. But that doesn't necessarily disqualify them.
It is just another way of describing something. It could be wrong, sure. It could also be right.
Depends on who you talk to.
For some binaries, the concept of androgyn is something in between male and female.
For us, it's not.
For me, Binary Genders are just a part of any number of descriptions of gender.

I understood every word you wrote.

Ativan

[Taka]

thanks ati, you always seem able to sort my thoughts out

Transition in the context of this thread is full transition from either MTF or FTM.
The question was asking if one's gender could be Androgyn in the process.
The answer is no.
But a person who assumes they are Androgyn, might discover that they are indeed Transsexual.
So then the answer would be yes.

that's very good answer to the question

but i still think we need to work a little more on the definition of this "transition" thing. this thread assumes that "full transition" is that full transition from ftm or mtf, but wouldn't it be something different for androgynes?
it just doesn't seem right in my mind that an androgyne does a partial transition, but ends up with a body that feels right for them and makes them feel complete (assuming this is medically possible, ofc. in many cases it probably isn't)

[eli77]

I'm not sure how much more "full" my transition could get exactly even in the binary concept - I'm on HRT, I've done FFS and SRS, electrolysis, laser, changed my name, changed all my gender/sex markers... I'm still non-binary. And I've met at least two other people who have altered their bodies and legal status as much as me who are non-binary.

"Full transition" is an obnoxious concept even for binary folks. There are lots of woman- or man-identifying trans folks who don't undergo SRS. That doesn't make their transition less full or their binary identities less valid.

To me, transition is the process of moving from an uncomfortable place to a comfortable place. Binary or non-binary, whatever is right for you is full.

[aleon515]

I agree with Sarah. I am moving towards full medical transition (though how full-- never lower I am pretty sure). Anyway, feel I will be more comfortable with a male presentation and a more male body but I don't think I would ever identify completely in a binary way. I feel my mind is both, and, and also too.

--Jay J

[ativan]

"Full transition" is an obnoxious concept even for binary folks. There are lots of woman- or man-identifying trans folks who don't undergo SRS. That doesn't make their transition less full or their binary identities less valid.

To me, transition is the process of moving from an uncomfortable place to a comfortable place. Binary or non-binary, whatever is right for you is full.

This is the greater truth about transitioning. Especially from this non-binary's point of view.
It was not that long ago, that there was a lot of infighting in and between groups about this.
I'm glad that it has settled down to being able to discuss it openly within this group.
(I don't know about the others, I stopped visiting them quite a while back.)
It's nice to hear all the chatter about transitioning and HRT in this section.

What's right, is whatever is right for you.
It's your body, it's your decision, it's your right.

Ativan

[Taka]

it might just be that i don't like how the word transition is used about changing one's body so it fits better.
i'd much rather undergo an artificial metamorphosis if i decide to change my appearance

[ativan]

it might just be that i don't like how the word transition is used about changing one's body so it fits better.
i'd much rather undergo an artificial metamorphosis if i decide to change my appearance

It could be as simple as changing your hairstyle, shaping your eyebrows, toning, building or lessening different muscle groups.
This is also used as expression, but that is a part of it.
More so than wearing different clothing. Which is just expression.
Where does makeup come into play in this?

It could be by surgery. This is the part where the term full transition comes into play.
Some consider it only when you have SRS. But many are now accepting that full transition can be without it.
Is the glass full when the water is an inch from the top? or does it have to be to the very top?

Hormones could be seen as an artificial metamorphosis.
I naturally produce more T than E, but by using Spiro, I bring the effectiveness of it down to within the range of a female.
I also boost my estrogen with a patch.
I don't think it is quite within the normal female range, I will see my Dr next week. We have some decisions to make, maybe.

All of this could be viewed as artificial, although I don't myself.
I don't think taking my antidepressant is an artificial happiness, either.

All of this could be viewed as artificial metamorphosis. Is it like a caterpillar to a butterfly? Not really, but I suppose if you hid away, and then revealed yourself one day, sure it could.

What do you mean by artificial metamorphosis?

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in.
Ativan

[Violet Bloom]

  I've been thinking a lot lately about the idea of what transition will really mean for me.  Personally I'm happy to land wherever this road takes me.  The problem I'm running into is that just broaching the subject of transition with people makes them assume/demand a polar definition or make up their own minds about what it means (generally some ugly, sinister or sexually unpalatable vision).  I might do a little and have no one know I'd changed on the inside or that little bit might be enough to completely change their view of me.  Inevitably a large number of people, due to their ignorance of the subject, are just going to assume it's an all-or-nothing proposition.  Just to make clear I don't personally feel androgyne but I doubt my transition will be entirely polar either.

  I recently informed my employer that I'm beginning the process and that it is still being defined.  I had to very carefully imply that they needed to be prepared for a full-out, on-the-job transition to female even though it may never come to that.  This made it all the more uncomfortable a situation and felt like writing a doomsday prophesy.  If along the way I found a comfortable middle-ground or something were to happen that would prevent me from continuing the process they still have to be prepared to protect my privacy because of the way my co-workers might respond with 'crazy ->-bleeped-<- visions'.  I'm steeling myself for the inevitable questions I'm going to face from people about whether I've had SRS even though this may never be an option I feel I need in order to achieve my goal.  I'm also wondering if they are going to be more uncomfortable with the idea of a girl with a penis or a girl with a vagina even though it's none of their business.

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transmission, so I could pick the gear I want to be in.

Hmmmm, I suppose "Reverse" could be useful at times

[ativan]

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in.
Ativan
Reverse could still come in handy...

[Violet Bloom]

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in.
Ativan
Reverse could still come in handy...

Interesting concept.  What is that, a TransAM?

[Taka]

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in.
Ativan
Reverse could still come in handy...

oh, i'd want that too. as long as it's a car i can change direction as well as speed, so it would work really well

What do you mean by artificial metamorphosis?

i probably mean changing into what i'm supposed to be by artificial means since nature got it wrong by some mishap
the result wouldn't be artificial, just that the process would be done with medicaments or surgery since nature didn't give me the means to change my body on my own

[Violet Bloom]

oh, i'd want that too. as long as it's a car i can change direction as well as speed, so it would work really well
i probably mean changing into what i'm supposed to be by artificial means since nature got it wrong by some mishap
the result wouldn't be artificial, just that the process would be done with medicaments or surgery since nature didn't give me the means to change my body on my own

I'd be an Autobot then.  Anyone remember the "Triple-changers"?  That should suffice.  (Damn, still a geek in every mode )

[lavistaa]

When you say "non binary"  are you referring to just your appearance or people's assumptions as to. your gender or that you are perhaps appearing as one sex but feeling the other (or both) or.....   

[ativan]

When you say "non binary"  are you referring to just your appearance or people's assumptions as to. your gender or that you are perhaps appearing as one sex but feeling the other (or both) or.....   

That over complicates the term. Male is binary, female is binary.
Non-binary is just a way of saying that you are not one of those genders.
You are a part of another set of genders, the number of which is not defined (as it shouldn't be).
Cis people are generally binary in gender. Transsexuals are generally binary in gender, also.
This section of the forum uses the term Androgyn the same as non-binary, and covers the genders that aren't binary.
Which there are far to many opinions and terms and designations and whatnotever's to list them all.
I use non-binary, as I am not binary in gender.
I will use Androgyn around here at times, if it falls into the context of what is being discussed.
Non-Binary is anyone who is not binary, genderwise. But like so many things, the lines are blurred.

One thing that I don't like is the idea that non-binary is in between the genders of male and female.
It's not.
Non-binary is a general term used to describe the other genders.
There isn't an in between.
You can put them in any order that pleases you.
You can change that order for any number of reasons.
Someone around here recently made the comment that it's not the middle of the road, it's another road.

That being said, there are the roads that define the two binary genders for a majority of people.
Then there is the multi-laned Super Highway of non-binary genders. Or a bunch of other roads.
(I just wanted to call it a Super Highway  )
The road analogy is a good one, as roads have a way of changing directions.
Destinations aren't always limited to just one road.
Lots of intersections out there.
And of course there is always the crossroad, where you can make a deal with the devil if you really want to play the blues.
Which may or may not have anything to do with genders.
Rambling again...
Ativan

[Phoeniks]

One thing that I don't like is the idea that non-binary is in between the genders of male and female.
It's not.

I don't like that idea either. I prefer to describe myself as non-binary. Currently I am somewhat suspicious towards the term Androgyne, since so many seem to define Androgyne as "between genders" or "male and female". I am quite certainly both feminine and masculine, but not female and male.

Speaking of the topic itself, for me, this could be a stepping stone towards being FtM - I could be more comfortable expressing femininity, then. I have a strong dislike for being misplaced as a female for my whole life, but I'm not yet sure how much better the male assumption would make me feel, at least when a honeymoon phase faded off.

I don't like it that most things in clothing and appearance are somewhat gendered, and that acting feminine while being in a female body obviously screams female to people. It makes me feel invisible. Taken as an effeminate male would be a truer place for me, if it became clear at some point that for others, I really can't exist outside the binary. I'd like to look non-binary since I feel a strong need to match my outside with my inside, but I'm still not sure if that's possible in this society.

But definitely, Androgyny isn't just the first step, though an androgynous appearance may be a way to ease things out. For me, "a full transition" isn't about going from one side of this supposed binary to the other. For me, "a full transition" would mean being taken as non-binary. In a way, I could even regard transitioning to male just as one step before being able to transition fully into non-binary.

[ativan]

It seems that the term 'full transition' is qualifying a person getting to where they want to be both physically & mentally.
It makes more sense than just confining it to Transsexuals, both pre and post op.
It opens up a better dialogue within the Transgender community.
A better understanding, a better point of view.
Maybe this is a something that will help to more unify everyone.
It would be nice if the walls of separatism went away.
And that does seem to be slowly happening, at least from my vantage point of view.
It would be nice if Transgenders could have a more unified voice in the fight for our equal rights.
We all want the same thing. Recognition of who we are, by our own definitions.
Regardless of what those definitions are. We have that same right, to define ourselves, without prejudice.
Ativan

[Satinjoy]

Newbies, look at the rich heritage of the forest... senior members, there is so much value in this place.

Love to all, I am still not on forum.  Overdose is no joke.

Blessings

Satinjoy