What is it like to de-transition?

[Michelle G]

Honestly I would rather be put into the ground than have to be all male all the time with no hint of the "real me", I just cant imagine being like that at all!

I love being a girl and if I had only two pennys left to my name....I would still fight to be "me"!

its not always about the clothes or appearance, its all about my "state of mind" 

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Absolutely not.  There is no such thing as "less of a trans woman", just as there is no such thing as "less of a woman".

Words have meanings. If I wake up tomorrow and decide I am Elizabeth I, does that make me Elizabeth I? 

[Ms. OBrien CVT]

Words have meanings. If I wake up tomorrow and decide I am Elizabeth I, does that make me Elizabeth I? 

Only if you decide that is your name.   It still makes you a woman, if you so claim.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Only if you decide that is your name.   It still makes you a woman, if you so claim.

OK so the simple fact of declaring that someone is something makes it so? If I wake up tomorrow and declare I am Japanese, then I am Japanese?

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

That's like saying just because you believed you were a woman, it wouldn't make you one. Instead, you'd be male-a highly feminized and castrated one-but your sex would still be male. How do we make these distinctions? Its tricky stuff.

Maybe the trick is just getting rid of the classification. Something that some gender theorists have proposed. As Judith Lorber has posited, gender and sex are socially constructed.  So maybe the term man and woman are meaningless in the final analysis. But society has not gotten there yet.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Our entire understandingamd experience of merely existing creates an either social construct or "human" one. When existence is stripped down we only ever experience our world as a human.

Yes, we experience the world as socialized humans. (Am I really a human though, tomorow I might declare I am an orangutan.) 

This is not and either or proposition. By definition, being human is being a social creature. The species would not have survived had we not developed social structures that allowed us to adapt to our environments.

[Jamie D]

Genotypes and associated phenotypes exist as a state of nature.

Only the system of classification can be considered a "construct," and that classification is accurate well over the second standard deviation (>95% confidence level).

[wendy]

Hum, ... it is on opinion and quite blend of propositions to boot, yes? An opinion and proposition shared by many? I dare say NO.

Why? I think we all would know that as well.

Creating our own personalized reality like this is not always very helpful either, we soon find out when the 'rubber meets the road'.

Since the sun is green rather than yellow, and I'm naturally Napoleon's Josephine reborn..., let me try to fly this opinion by you.

Will you be able to imagine the general reaction to this, yes?

I'm sure you will want to support me in this opinion (you nice and supportive) it does not hurt anyone either, no?

I'm not too sure at all about most anyone else though

Maybe a case of... what we can't feel and don't understand...

Axélle

Axelle how do you look so good so fast?  Wow you look great!

.................

Axelle I prefer not to hurt your feelings but this quote by you says a lot, "Maybe a case of... what we can't feel and don't understand..."

..............Flip to next post I am going to write........................
My best friend could not go to a public budget meeting and asked if I would go.  I asked if I could go as me.  She said yes since none of her friends will be there.  She also wanted me to make some positive comments for her function.

I went downtown Atlanta.  I had short hair wig, white female pants, pretty purple blouse, pair of gray Mary Janes, little make-up, and some sterling jewelry.  Off train stop few young black ladies called across street, "You're a pretty Trans and I would not mind being with you."  I made no comment and ignored them.

Made my way over to secure government building and needed ID to get into building.  Lady Officer looked at my picture and I said, "I'm trans." She said O.K. with a nice smile and did her security checks and was pleasant.

At budget meeting some long term friends of my best friend were there.  I sat as a girl and said nothing.  They did not say anything to me. 

At end of meeting state senator asked if there were any other comments.  He called on me and said, "Yes Ma'am please come to mic."  I did my best.  It was O.K.  When I sat down lady next to me said, "That was very good."

I went to ladies room and all other ladies got in after me.  They had to wait on me.  I got out and they were all nice.

Said bye to lady guard and she smiled.

Needed to take a walk because I was so freaking nervous!!! Overheard number of comments.

Old white pan handler asked for money.  I gave him two dollars and he said, "Thank you Ma'am and you look like a person from hippie era."  (Actually I though FFS was to make you look younger since hippies were '60's.)

Took train home and young black man flirted with me and took his cell phone out and took my picture.  People think I look nice but I am not passing all time.

I was glad I did it.  I was nervous.  I remained autistic.  I did not feel wrong.

.............................

I think I am gender fluid.  I can not stay in boy mode for more than a few days but I can do it.  That was first time I have ever talked to public in woman mode and was not with trans friend for support.   It was scary but it was good.  I am so chicken (reference is fear not gender).

For past three nights I wanted inserts removed and today they were O.K.  Certainly helps me pass in woman mode but awful for man mode.  This is my reality.

Maybe fence is where I live instead of where I sit.  I was glad for RLE today.  Hope I can recover.

I do not claim to be TS or MTF but if I take inserts out it will feel like it is de-transitioning even if inserts hurt and were wrong procedure in beginning.

Yes I do believe some cross dressers are TS and they knew it for decades.

[AbraCadabra]

Just a thought...

If ALL is being as EQUAL as is being posited --- there would also be NO de-transition in the first place either.

Or would there

De-transition from a woman to a woman; or from a man to man

Just help me out here, can THIS make sense?

BTW: "... what we cannot feel, WE cannot understand" (what it was supposed to read like)

Elisabeth II, Japanese...  my post-breakfast idea of self for today (yea...they coming to take me away ha ha...)

[Julie Wilson]

Words have meanings. If I wake up tomorrow and decide I am Elizabeth I, does that make me Elizabeth I?

Always asking the difficult questions O_o ...

I think of "am" as a verb.  I am a woman.  if there is no verb/action then the statement tends to be more of a protest than anything else.  I suppose protesting is an action but it isn't an act of being a woman in this case, rather protesting is a way to draw attention to the opposite condition.  I am not a woman and I am protesting because I am I need to be a woman.  I need for you to recognize that I am female, because you aren't recognizing me as female.  I am "coming out" because this isn't right, you aren't recognizing me as female and now you say that you are but you are simply trying to be nice or politically correct or maybe you hope this is just a phase, a fever that will pass.

Oh but now I am taking ownership.  I ordered hormones or I went to a doctor for hormones or I am taking hormones.  Now I am acting, manifesting, owning...  But it is a process, it doesn't happen all at once.  People might remember to use my preferred pronouns, I may even pass as female socially or at least visually but my ability to interact with others as a woman may be limited but perhaps I am at a stage of life where that doesn't matter so I don't need to take it any farther.

Then again perhaps I am younger and I want to build a career for myself as a female.  I want to build relationships and friendships with people who only know me as female.  Maybe I want to marry and adopt.  Maybe I desire the right to determine who knows about my past and who doesn't because I haven't yet realized that once information is out of my hands it is out of my hands and I need to believe that people can keep secrets because I have an addiction to my secret and I have to share it or I will simply burst because being a woman feels so scary and now that I have taken full ownership of it I want to hand the controls over to someone else because maybe I am experiencing survivor's guilt.  Or maybe I like things kept out of my control.

Just hope you aren't like me because a little is never enough and good intentions make me wretch.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Yes I do believe some cross dressers are TS and they knew it for decades.

An mtf transsexual who cross dresses would wear "male" attire. In other words, a TS cross-dresser would be a Drag King. OTOH if what you are saying is that a bio male wears "female" attire occasionally realizes that she is TS, she was not a cross-dresser to begin with but a TS all along. By definition, a cross-dresser is not a transsexual. 

[wendy]

Elisabeth II, Japanese...  my post-breakfast idea of self for today (yea...they coming to take me away ha ha...)

Axelle you are too funny!  I thought you had good posture?

We are discussing gender not your connection to royalty.

Yes a CD that says she is a women is a women.
.......................

Axelle you are having too much fun.  You are baiting me. 

Androgynes are cross wired both directions and they do exist.

[rachl]

An mtf transsexual who cross dresses would wear "male" attire. In other words, a TS cross-dresser would be a Drag King. OTOH if what you are saying is that a bio male wears "female" attire occasionally realizes that she is TS, she was not a cross-dresser to begin with but a TS all along. By definition, a cross-dresser is not a transsexual.

This doesn't accord with self-reports of some TS women who began as cross dressers, sometimes for many years. They say, "I was a cross dresser, then I realized that I'm a trans woman," or some such. They actively identify their past selves as having been cross dressers, not "TS all along," as you suggest. ...careful not to project theory onto experience too hastily.

[AbraCadabra]

Isn't it a situation were by we may feel WHATEVER, being female (MAAB), Josephine, the Emporer, etc. etc. Yet if what we PRESENT is not what we feel, THEN --- we have an issue. It be a dichotomy of some proportions.

We may feel to be whatever we fancy --- if we do not PRESENT it to the outside, even to our mirror, then our CLAIM will be questioned. Even by us ourselves for that matter, at least at times, yes?

If you feel like a woman and do not represent what a woman is... it is QUITE a stretch to simply demand to be ACKNOWLEDEGED as such.

Presentation and inner state will need to match – in my opinion,
Axélle

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

This doesn't accord with self-reports of some TS women who began as cross dressers, sometimes for many years. They say, "I was a cross dresser, then I realized that I'm a trans woman," or some such. They actively identify their past selves as having been cross dressers, not "TS all along," as you suggest. ...careful not to project theory onto experience too hastily.

I appreciate the nuanced thinking but your post essentially agrees with what I posted. I would submit, however, that crossdressers who self-identified as cross-dressers were, indeed transsexual "all along" regardless of what they identified as.

For a time, I was in denial about being TS. During that period of denial, did I cease being transsexual?

[rachl]

I appreciate the nuanced thinking but your post essentially agrees with what I posted. I would submit, however, that crossdressers who self-identified as cross-dressers were, indeed transsexual "all along" regardless of what they identified as.

For a time, I was in denial about being TS. During that period of denial, did I cease being transsexual?

My post strongly disagrees, actually. Because, you did it again there: you're re-interpreting self-reports again and saying, no, they were mistaken, and were ts all along regardless of what THEY identified as. If the trans* phenomena teach us anything, it's that we have to take self-reports very seriously, and theorize around them, not theorize them away.

You're asking tough metaphysical questions (questions of philosophy: my backyard), and ones I don't have an answer to. They're tough: when does someone start being transsexual? I don't ascribe to the view that one is always trans*: this strikes me as retroactive interpretation of one's life. I think that it's closer to one being trans when one identifies oneself as being trans.

[wendy]

I think of "am" as a verb.  I am a woman.  if there is no verb/action then the statement tends to be more of a protest than anything else.  I suppose protesting is an action but it isn't an act of being a woman in this case, rather protesting is a way to draw attention to the opposite condition.  I am not a woman and I am protesting because I am I need to be a woman.  I need for you to recognize that I am female, because you aren't recognizing me as female.  I am "coming out" because this isn't right, you aren't recognizing me as female and now you say that you are but you are simply trying to be nice or politically correct or maybe you hope this is just a phase, a fever that will pass.

Oh but now I am taking ownership.  I ordered hormones or I went to a doctor for hormones or I am taking hormones.  Now I am acting, manifesting, owning...  But it is a process, it doesn't happen all at once.  People might remember to use my preferred pronouns, I may even pass as female socially or at least visually but my ability to interact with others as a woman may be limited but perhaps I am at a stage of life where that doesn't matter so I don't need to take it any farther.

Then again perhaps I am younger and I want to build a career for myself as a female.  I want to build relationships and friendships with people who only know me as female.  Maybe I want to marry and adopt.  Maybe I desire the right to determine who knows about my past and who doesn't because I haven't yet realized that once information is out of my hands it is out of my hands and I need to believe that people can keep secrets because I have an addiction to my secret and I have to share it or I will simply burst because being a woman feels so scary and now that I have taken full ownership of it I want to hand the controls over to someone else because maybe I am experiencing survivor's guilt.  Or maybe I like things kept out of my control.

Just hope you aren't like me because a little is never enough and good intentions make me wretch.

Noey that is very interesting post.  I can not stand secret and I am tired of hiding.  It takes great strength to be a woman.  Society is ignorant.  I do not want to run away and hide my entire existence created while living as a man.  I am too old for that nonsense.  However I am too scared to start again.

To explain level of stress I experienced I have not had a cold sore on my lip in many years.  Two hours after talking in front of state senator, superintendent, commissioners, and people I know for 25 years as a woman I got a cold sore.

Individuals that run our school system want to eliminate electronic media centers to save money.  Media center personnel made strong arguments to keep digital environment for students with current budget.

I argued, as a woman, that budget cuts they have made have reduced highly educated media specialists to clerks to check in/out books instead of teach students about digital resources and how to use them.  I argued budget needs to be increased to re-hire clerks to do repetitive tasks and allow highly educated and paid individuals to teach how to utilize digital resources to both other teachers and students.   

[wendy]

Axelle since you enjoy me squirming, might I recommend a different royal person..................

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

My post strongly disagrees, actually. Because, you did it again there: you're re-interpreting self-reports again and saying, no, they were mistaken, and were ts all along regardless of what THEY identified as. If the trans* phenomena teach us anything, it's that we have to take self-reports very seriously, and theorize around them, not theorize them away.

You're asking tough metaphysical questions (questions of philosophy: my backyard), and ones I don't have an answer to. They're tough: when does someone start being transsexual? I don't ascribe to the view that one is always trans*: this strikes me as retroactive interpretation of one's life. I think that it's closer to one being trans when one identifies oneself as being trans.

I would like you to directly address my own experiential question. My earliest recollection was that I was or should have been female--around three to four years old--then I went into a period of denial. During this period, did I cease becoming a transsexual?

As well, I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. The consensus of opinion--at least in the recovery community--is that we were alcoholic-addicts before we picked up the first drink and will always be addict/alcoholics... which seems to refute your self-reporting theory.

[AbraCadabra]

Axelle since you enjoy me squirming, might I recommend a different royal person..................

Josephine (Napoleon's sweetie-pie AND wife) was NOT a royal ever. Will that help to know?
I can relate to her, it's why I mentioned her.
She ALSO could not bear children, was quite sexy, (I'm told I am), and liked to DRESS – OH YES!, I do too, she  was stylish, I like stylish... and older (well, then HIM)

I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum... 

Axélle