Girls, do you think its preferable not to tell guys we're trans?

[Kevin Peña]

I would say that a real intellectual discovers what is counter-productive and allows that experience to flower by learning how to appreciate that which is counter-intuitive. 


You live in a house.  There is a jar of cookies on the floor just inside the front door.  The cookies were there when you rented the place.  At night when you come home from a job at the local mini mall you remind yourself where the jar of cookies is because you used to trip over them in the past but you are making a job of incorporating their existence into your reality in order to avoid another accident.  When you invite guests into your house you make it a point to tell them about the jar of cookes, "Careful when you come in, don't trip over the jar of cookies."

Everyone wants to talk about the jar of cookies.  Everyone has their own theories about what to tell their guests about the jar of cookies.  "Should I tell them before I invite them over or should I wait till they are about to enter my house?"  "Everyone is discussing when to tell and how to tell."  An 'Intellectual' (the kind of person I could respect and admire) would have dealt with the cookies a long time ago.  She would have been like, "WTF are these stupid cookies doing in the middle of the floor for people to trip over?"  And she would have either eaten them or tossed them out and they wouldn't even be an issue.  But no... everyone wants to talk about the cookies in the middle of the floor.  "Do we put a traffic cone next to them or do we set a potted plant on top of them?"  "When do we need to tell people about the jar of cookies, do we only tell the people who are closest to us or the people who will never have any occasion to visit us in our home?"  Cookies, cookies, cookies, what a fascinating topic.  Let's talk about cookies.

I'm pretty sure it's not the same thing, nor is anyone stupid enough to actually leave a jar of cookies on the floor. Besides, what would be the metaphorical equivalent to "dealing with the cookies"?

[Sephirah]

What I have been attempting to demonstrate in this thread is that we can create our own "reality" and that "reality" is what people think.

You can't create everyone else's "reality" though.

The thing is, you're not just dealing with yourself. If you were, then that would be one thing. But a relationship is a partnership. You can control what you think and what you feel, but you can't control what other people think and what they feel. And this whole thing seems like having both sides of a conversation yourself and deciding on the course of action.

If no one ever has reason to ask the question, then you don't have any reason to answer it, if that's your choice. But that's making a very big assumption that they will never have any reason to ask it. And if they do... it may come back to bite you in the ass when things get difficult for reasons other than what the question is about. Your reality may be that it doesn't matter, that it's not who you are, that it's nothing to do with any part of your being... and your partner may totally agree with you. But if they found out somewhere other than from your lips first then whether they think it matters or not may be secondary to them feeling hurt that you just didn't say anything, and a breakdown of trust.

Of course, this may never happen and your relationship may be a blissful union that lasts well into the matching dribble bib and zimmer frame phase. But it's a risk you take. Your past may never be an issue, but your silence might. Words can create or destroy, but sometimes so can a lack of words. Often in the minds of others rather than ourselves.

Intellectual people may be able to create their own reality and decide what reality is, for them. But theirs isn't the only reality, albeit the only one they have mastery over. And in forming a connection with another, for better or worse, realities are interwoven. No one is an island.

[Julie Wilson]

You can't create everyone else's "reality" though.

The thing is, you're not just dealing with yourself..

Exactly, I couldn't have stated it any better.  But for some reason many trans people keep on trying don't they, they even invented a new kind of woman.

As to the rest of your post, they could be pecan sandies but I was thinking they were chocolate chip, not the kind with walnuts in them.  There aren't any intellectual people, there are just people.

[Kevin Peña]

Ok, I'll just say tell them if you want to, don't if you don't. There's no shame in either path.

[Julie Wilson]

when I am in a relationship with a man whom I love, I feel like I should tell him of my past, not because theres something wrong with me (god im perfect, but we all know that ) but because, as a person, ive had to go through a lot and im proud of all that. Im going to reluctantly call it cowardly to do otherwise...

You're still going through it.  Not all of us are.  For someone who is finished with transition this discussion is entirely irrelevant.  I had SRS in 2004 and have been full-time since 2005, I have been on hormones since 2000 and I'm not done with transition so for me this topic is relevant.  Some of us have less cookies in the jar, in my jar there are only crumbs.  In the movie 'The Matrix' some weird little kid told Neo, "There is no spoon."  Well... the truth is there is no jar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix

[Julie Wilson]

When your jar is still full of cookies it is heavier.

Some of us will always have cookies in our jar.

[Julie Wilson]

Ok, I'll just say tell them if you want to, don't if you don't. There's no shame in either path.

Or realize there is no jar.

Transition has a lot of steps in it, some of the steps are physical steps.


You could invent the perfect and most fuel-efficient car in the world but if there is no petrol in your world then you are just another crazy inventor who invents junk that doesn't work.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

You're still going through it.  Not all of us are.  For someone who is finished with transition this discussion is entirely irrelevant.  I had SRS in 2004 and have been full-time since 2005, I have been on hormones since 2000 and I'm not done with transition so for me this topic is relevant.  Some of us have less cookies in the jar, in my jar there are only crumbs.  In the movie 'The Matrix' some weird little kid told Neo, "There is no spoon."  Well... the truth is there is no jar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix

It seems to me that pre-op non-cisgenders have no choice but to tell. The only question is when. I find it odd that they do not address this in their argument. And not only is there a difference between being post-op, there is a big difference between freshly post-op and those like Noey and myself who have been living as just "regular" women for years.

[Constance]

It seems to me that pre-op non-cisgenders have no choice but to tell. The only question is when. I find it odd that they do not address this in their argument.

Actually, I did answer the question as to when in my first reply to this thread:

I'm pre-op, have 2 adult kids who call me dad, and am pretty much out of the closet. I'd disclose at the outset.

[Annah]

I'm not willing to accept that there is a "moral" imperative for disclosure. That society has a problem with me is society's problem. Trying to say it's my problem is just victim blaming.

I am a female born with a physical defect, re: one penis. I can't possibly imagine telling someone I "used to be a man" or "I was born a boy" or any of the various permutations. THAT would be a lie. Just because society has an inaccurate perception of my self, my body and my identity, doesn't mean I have to agree, and certainly doesn't mean I have to obey.

There are plenty of valid reasons to disclose. Morality isn't one of them.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov

Bite me world. Bite me.

That's fine, but 100% of the world just doesn't think the same way you do. You say it's a medical issue and it should be private. I can certainly respect that. But there also has to be a dose of reality thrown into there as well.

Changing your physical gender is not like having Renal Cancer or a broken foot. It just isn't in our world (it is in the world of DSM and within our circles....but not too many others outside of that sphere of influence). You may think it is and that is your right to believe that but try to tell a guy who has been intimate with you or has been married to you for a couple years find out about your birth gender. He isn't going to think you changing genders is compared to a kidney transplant. He's going to think you been lying to him for all this time. I mean...even if he was cool with it if you told him up front, the sheer fact that you have been hiding this from him will cause him to think "what else has she been hiding from me."

It's a lot more easier and better when you tell the guy right away. If he doesn't care then you know he aligns with your ideals with this. If he takes it hard then you will know he does not agree with your ideals about this.

Plus, your entire family and friends will probably not all agree to participate in the "hide" thing...even if you do try to convince them that it was a medical procedure.

And you don't agree it is a moral thing. That's cool. I respect that. I feel that it is a moral issue because for me..it involves having everyone you know or who is close to you from disclosing "a secret" to someone who may love you.

Another thing to think about. I am trans and I disagree with you. So think about the men who has hardly ever been involved in anything "transness" or only seen it on television or the movies and how they may react. As I said, it's your life and i can respect that but I wanted to throw some reality into this mix.

[eli77]

As I said before, I guess I'm just a product of a different environment to most of you folks. My friends and family would never disclose my status without my consent. It isn't their right. Just like it isn't my right to disclose any of their private things without their consent. That would be a huge betrayal of trust. That they might argue that I should tell, sure, but they'd never just go ahead because they disagreed with me. That's not how decent people behave. Speaking of morality and all.

I brought up the topic with a couple people a few weeks ago, about when I would tell and feeling weird and nervous about having to explain about it. The first response was "Why tell? Wait till it gets serious." From a straight cis woman. And, "it isn't really likely they'd react badly, right? Why are you worried?" From a straight(ish) cis guy. These are my friends. This is what my friends are like.

And really? You think I need to convince them it was a medical procedure? They were there with me every step of the way, holding my hand, looking after me. They know exactly what it is. Honestly, the people here... you are so used to terrible, vicious, ignorant human beings that it doesn't even cross your mind sometimes that some folks out there, even in real life, are actually totally cool. You all need to be around more cool people.

As to the lying thing? No it isn't lying. There is no reasonable expectation to get access to someone's private trauma. I don't feel a particular moral imperative to disclose my suicide attempts or my anorexia either. And the person should bloody well feel flattered that I trust them enough to tell them, when and if I do. The people in my life who know these things have LONG LONG existing relationships with me. Or are medical professionals who are required to maintain my privacy.

I'll disclose, as I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261 . But not because I feel like I have to, or I owe them. I'll disclose because a) I recognize that the world isn't perfect and I might occasionally run into to people from your world, which is apparently populated 100% by losers and b) I want to be able to share that part of my life with them.

And honestly the "I'm trans and I don't accept that" argument is terrible. I've found trans communities to be far, far less accepting on every possible level than my own cis community. And I think I've disclosed to maybe 3 or 4 people who hadn't already met at least one other trans person? Heh, my sister's partner has more trans friends than I do.

For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

[~RoadToTrista~]

I watched the entire first video and I can definitely see the point of view and where she's coming from. It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty situation and she outlines a big chunk of why I want to get SRS (not the whole reason however). I'm sick of guys going from "So what do you do in school?", to either "YOU SHOULD'VE TOLD ME THAT SOONER!!" or showing me some trans porn. But I always have to think of my own safety and I don't want to risk it.

I'd like to point out that the girl who made that video has newer ones and it appears that she's currently in a happy relationship with a man who knows she's trans.

[Annah]

As I said before, I guess I'm just a product of a different environment to most of you folks. My friends and family would never disclose my status without my consent. It isn't their right. Just like it isn't my right to disclose any of their private things without their consent. That would be a huge betrayal of trust. That they might argue that I should tell, sure, but they'd never just go ahead because they disagreed with me. That's not how decent people behave. Speaking of morality and all.

I brought up the topic with a couple people a few weeks ago, about when I would tell and feeling weird and nervous about having to explain about it. The first response was "Why tell? Wait till it gets serious." From a straight cis woman. And, "it isn't really likely they'd react badly, right? Why are you worried?" From a straight(ish) cis guy. These are my friends. This is what my friends are like.

And really? You think I need to convince them it was a medical procedure? They were there with me every step of the way, holding my hand, looking after me. They know exactly what it is. Honestly, the people here... you are so used to terrible, vicious, ignorant human beings that it doesn't even cross your mind sometimes that some folks out there, even in real life, are actually totally cool. You all need to be around more cool people.

As to the lying thing? No it isn't lying. There is no reasonable expectation to get access to someone's private trauma. I don't feel a particular moral imperative to disclose my suicide attempts or my anorexia either. And the person should bloody well feel flattered that I trust them enough to tell them, when and if I do. The people in my life who know these things have LONG LONG existing relationships with me. Or are medical professionals who are required to maintain my privacy.

I'll disclose, as I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261 . But not because I feel like I have to, or I owe them. I'll disclose because a) I recognize that the world isn't perfect and I might occasionally run into to people from your world, which is apparently populated 100% by losers and b) I want to be able to share that part of my life with them.

And honestly the "I'm trans and I don't accept that" argument is terrible. I've found trans communities to be far, far less accepting on every possible level than my own cis community. And I think I've disclosed to maybe 3 or 4 people who hadn't already met at least one other trans person? Heh, my sister's partner has more trans friends than I do.

For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

I live in a middle class, educated, respect all beliefs, progressive, LGBT positive queerish, youngish urban bubble too. Over 60-70% of my college is gay (including our Vice President) and I still disagree with your logic.

But good luck with this. If I were you I would save your above post and share it with the guy who finds out you were hiding things. It "may" convince him...it hasn't convinced me. If anything, it sounds like you are trying to create these "alternatives" because you are ashamed of who you are.

I said my peace here and now it's time to move on.

[eli77]

But good luck with this. If I were you I would save your above post and share it with the guy who finds out you were hiding things. It "may" convince him...it hasn't convinced me. If anything, it sounds like you are trying to create these "alternatives" because you are ashamed of who you are.

*Shrug* I clearly stated in my post that I would disclose early, so I'll never be in that situation. Primarily because I'm NOT ashamed of who I am. And I'm queer. I don't date guys. Which I've also said already.

I still think "don't lie to your partner that's wrong, you have to disclose otherwise you are dishonest" crap comes from a very bad place. We aren't monsters, we don't owe anyone ->-bleeped-<-. We need to be practical, absolutely. No question. Protect yourself. But this isn't about morality. It's about what works in our given situations and for each individual person.

You keep trying to say "not disclosing is immoral" and then supporting it with what is actually an unrelated practical argument for disclosure. I don't disagree with the argument, just with your premise.

[Elena G]

I still think "don't lie to your partner that's wrong, you have to disclose otherwise you are dishonest" crap comes from a very bad place. We aren't monsters, we don't owe anyone ->-bleeped-<-. We need to be practical, absolutely. No question. Protect yourself. But this isn't about morality. It's about what works in our given situations and for each individual person.

Right.

[JennX]

As I said before, I guess I'm just a product of a different environment to most of you folks. My friends and family would never disclose my status without my consent. It isn't their right. Just like it isn't my right to disclose any of their private things without their consent. That would be a huge betrayal of trust. That they might argue that I should tell, sure, but they'd never just go ahead because they disagreed with me. That's not how decent people behave. Speaking of morality and all.

I brought up the topic with a couple people a few weeks ago, about when I would tell and feeling weird and nervous about having to explain about it. The first response was "Why tell? Wait till it gets serious." From a straight cis woman. And, "it isn't really likely they'd react badly, right? Why are you worried?" From a straight(ish) cis guy. These are my friends. This is what my friends are like.

And really? You think I need to convince them it was a medical procedure? They were there with me every step of the way, holding my hand, looking after me. They know exactly what it is. Honestly, the people here... you are so used to terrible, vicious, ignorant human beings that it doesn't even cross your mind sometimes that some folks out there, even in real life, are actually totally cool. You all need to be around more cool people.

As to the lying thing? No it isn't lying. There is no reasonable expectation to get access to someone's private trauma. I don't feel a particular moral imperative to disclose my suicide attempts or my anorexia either. And the person should bloody well feel flattered that I trust them enough to tell them, when and if I do. The people in my life who know these things have LONG LONG existing relationships with me. Or are medical professionals who are required to maintain my privacy.

I'll disclose, as I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261 . But not because I feel like I have to, or I owe them. I'll disclose because a) I recognize that the world isn't perfect and I might occasionally run into to people from your world, which is apparently populated 100% by losers and b) I want to be able to share that part of my life with them.

And honestly the "I'm trans and I don't accept that" argument is terrible. I've found trans communities to be far, far less accepting on every possible level than my own cis community. And I think I've disclosed to maybe 3 or 4 people who hadn't already met at least one other trans person? Heh, my sister's partner has more trans friends than I do.

For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

This X 10000000³

Great post. And this is why I wait till date #3 and far before any intimate activities take place. It's none of anyone's business, but my own. If some view it as lying, that is purely their perspective, but not mine.

And finally, the majority of guys I've told have been okay with me and my anatomy. Really. Even the big, tatted-up, buff gym rats, that I would've have bet would have run away screaming. You can't judge a book by it's cover.

[Ugla]

Personally, I like to keep it right out there before anything actually happens. I did the mistake of not doing so a few times, and it always ended up badly.

For me, this is quite simple because all in all: Do I want to date someone who does not have an open mind towards trans-people? And my answer is no. So if the person isn't going to like me being transgender, it won't matter whether I tell them sooner or later. So I might as well just do it right away so that no one gets hurt.

But I guess it's different for each and every one.

[Constance]

For me, this is quite simple because all in all: Do I want to date someone who does not have an open mind towards trans-people? And my answer is no. So if the person isn't going to like me being transgender, it won't matter whether I tell them sooner or later. So I might as well just do it right away so that no one gets hurt.

This.

But I guess it's different for each and every one.

And this, too.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Actually, I did answer the question as to when in my first reply to this thread:

I was referring to Tessa's post not yours which reminds me that I want to address this from Tessa:

because, as a person, ive had to go through a lot and im proud of all that. Im going to reluctantly call it cowardly to do otherwise... (disclose) (i really hope im not offending anyone when I say that, thats NOT why I come to susans) because you are doing a disservice to the trans community.

Unlike my affiliation with AA and NA who helped me build the clean life that I now have, the real life "trans community" has done nothing for me. I have no obligation to the "trans community" whatsoever. When I was at your stage, I felt pretty much the same way you do now.  But I do not want to be another Teresa Sparks. As one travels through this journey and begins to realize that the whole world sees you as a woman, pure and simple, one begins to forget that she is even trans. Someone who has not reached that zenith cannot possibly know how she will feel once she gets there. Time changes everything. That said. I never expect to be in a serious relationship with a man. I am involved in a long term relationship with a woman and have not "disclosed." I think I might have a different view if I were a straight woman.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Tessa,

Based on what you just said, I would be willing to "bet the farm" that when you are post-op and settled in your role (at least a couple years post-op) your attitude about disclosing will change. (You are pre-op, not non-op, correct?)

Also, I wonder. How do you expect to meet the "love of your life" when you are pre-op? I mean it is possible but...just saying.