So, so sick of this

[Jamie D]

(Saperlipopette is a fantastic old French expletive which I only use on special occasions - I learned it from a Tintin book.)

Fiddlesticks

[Jamie D]

I had to leave a Tran* group elsewhere, I couldn't put up with the transsexual put downs and missrepresentation of an androgynous car ad from Japan.
I tried to explain that it wasn't, as one person put it, another use of a 'man in a dress', and his parts WE all despise are showing, and that HE doesn't even attempt to have boobs.
I tied to explain that the person doesn't, as written in the article, consider himself to be anything other than male, and does the makeup and look because he can do it. It's a job and he gets paid, ya know?

SNIP

Ativan

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125445.msg984705.html#msg984705

[Padma]

Fiddlesticks

A "loose" translation .

[Metroland]

Padma,

I heard about how transwomen are not very accepting of us.  I even experienced it on this website.  It hurts.  I don't know why so many of them, even high ranking people on this website are not understanding of us.

I guess that they really don't get us.  For some reason they are ok with discriminating against us.  It seems that they think that this is their space.

We have our own.  We are comfortable with who we are.  Maybe they have unresolved issues and they are unable to handle it so they project them onto you.  That doesn't mean anything about you.

I don't think that they are right in doing that.

[Padma]

Well, I am a trans woman myself, it's just that when it comes to gender (as opposed to physiology) I'm pretty much androgyne.

These trans women I've been dealing with locally tried to fit me in a "gender-neutral" pigeonhole for a while (without me realising it), I think because they find it uncomfortable to have someone around who's ostensibly doing the same thing they are, but in a completely different way . It's like they think I'm going to invalidate them, so they try to get in there first. There's a whole lot of peer pressure and subtle hierarchy going on (so it's basically just women stuff - well, men do this too, so I guess it's basically just people stuff), and they flock together and reinforce each other's "standard trans look and feel", and I don't fit in.

For some reason, they seem more at ease with me now that I've given them this Trans Tomboy/Hippy Dyke label to play with. They needed something to compare me to, and at least with these labels, the comparison is with other actual women.

I'm just going to ride the bumps while I get on with doing it my way. It'll be fine .

[Metroland]

Can't you just not hang out with them anymore?  They don't seem to have the best influence on you.  They aren't really being nice.

[Padma]

far from being insecure in their feminity - actually femaleness - the people who annoy you are actually very secure and don't understand why someone would transition partly when its much nicer to transition fully.

Well, this is hilariously redundant . I'm transitioning fully into a different kind of woman from them, that's all that's unsettling them.

[Jamie D]

A "loose" translation .

I'm sort of loose 

[ativan]

far from being insecure in their feminity - actually femaleness - the people who annoy you are actually very secure and don't understand why someone would transition partly when its much nicer to transition fully.

Why would I or any non-binary to want transition from one gender to the other when that is not who we are?
This is the classic kind of 'not self realized bigotry' that non-binaries have to listen to.
If you don't get that we are not binary and don't want to be, why make such comments like a full transition is the only way?
Non-binaries in general don't transition to a binary gender and don't have a binary gender to transition from.
We don't walk that same well worn path as a binary trans* person does.
We have our own. Why is this so hard to understand?
Comments like this, that full transition is much nicer, is a put down.
And you just don't get it. Non-binary people are a separate group.
Not an in between, not a place where binaries go when they transition.
From our point of view, who would want that? Trapped in a gender?
We are Trans* because we are in that place that has many variations, points that don't necessarily have to be and usually are not in that binary spectrum.
We are outside of that. Is it really that hard to understand?
Has society raised you in such a manner that you will still retain some of that bigotry towards someone you don't understand?
You experience it. Why then put that on someone else? How could that possibly be helpful to anyone?
Have you been told by non-binaries that transitioning is not the right thing to do? When it is. For you?
I have no problem talking about what I am doing with low dose HRT.
But it is something that I have carefully thought out and understand what I am doing.
I don't, and neither does any other non-binary, need to be told that it is the wrong way.
Just as your transition isn't anything that we have a right to tell you how you should be doing it.
Go ahead and ask questions, learn about us. But don't tell us what is right and wrong from a binary viewpoint.
Just like I don't and I doubt that any other non-binary would tell you how to transition.
I get it. We get it. It's because of all the information and documentation that is out there.
I can understand not being able to grasp the idea that we are something different, there is little information to use.
But first thing, you need to understand that there is a fundamental difference in how we live our lives.
Yep, we're Trans*. We move around in the ether world of genders, just like you do.
We just do it differently.

Ativan

[Sephirah]

It's so... I don't know whether there's a word for this - normist?

Homogeneitist?

[Devlyn]

Gesundheit!

[Padma]

Yes, sigh. I'm not choosing to be the kind of woman I am, I'm just finally *getting* to be the kind of woman I am. It's not a "statement", it's merely reality.

The funny thing is, the more feminised my body gets (i.e. the closer to how I know it's meant to have been), and the more I arrive in myself - the more obvious it is that a hippy dyke is who I incontrovertibly am. So once I'm all the way there, I may be in doc martens (purple, natch) and get a crew cut . Well, probably not, but the point is that the more confident I am in my femaleness, the more certain I am that I'm not a skirt-girl. I like boot-cut jeans and converse and waistcoats and satchels, is what I like. Oddly, this is kind of what I was like when I was a teen first time round - except that as a "boy", I apparently looked feminine that way, whereas now people want to call me butch . Pff...

[MadelineB]

This is a great discussion! I am very grateful that Susan's has a strong contingent of androgynous-expressing or androgynous-identifying individuals. For me, it would get really stifling if it didn't.

I am a woman from a long line of very strong and very accomplished ciswomen, many of whom are distinctly androgynous or genderqueer. In fact, at this stage in my transition I am the most feminine-identifying and feminine-expressing woman in my entire extended family. I disagree vehemently with anyone who tells you that androgyny, whether in identity or expression, is "just a stage" or "not full transition" or any of the other bilgewater.

In my case, many of the wonderful women I most admire, passed through a stage of hyperfemininity like mine before they eventually grew up and grew into their marvelous unstereotypical womanhood. I don't know how I'll be or where I'll end up, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this Madeline ends up squarely in the hippy-chick, tommyboi, rosie the riveter section of the gender universe.

Any time I hear someone maligning or talking down to androgynes it really gets to me, because they are insulting my mother, and my sisters,  my father god rest his soul, and probably me some day if I ever "fully transition". Soldier on, my friends.

[kelly_aus]

I'm not a 'stereotypical woman', I'm most comfortable in my converse, jeans and a tshirt, just like I always have - the styles and cuts are a little different now, but my basic 'uniform' remains the same. I do have the odd girly moment, but they are somewhat rare.

[Sephirah]

No point being a stereotype when you can live in surround sound and get the full experience.

[justmeinoz]

Personally I will settle for transitioning to me, human.   What I wear depends on the situation generally, although I simply like mascara, eyeliner, shadow and lippy.  Whether I am in my bike leathers or a shirt.  Because I like it!

As for "men in dresses", actually I think we will all agree that the world would be a better place if there were a lot more of it.   David Tennent in a silk skirt? Hmmmm

Karen.

[Padma]

I'd settle for seeing men in jeans that didn't resemble a sack of cement . C'mon guys, where have those butts gone?
</objectify>

This is it - being yourself takes a while for people, because you have to filter out the cultural noise in order to tune in to the true signal. And I don't welcome people who add their own blare to try and drown out mine.

The fact that we have to say "I'm not x, I'm y" shows how pigeonholier-than-thou even the trans community can be sometimes. I've been surprised by how much people at large are willing to accept me as I am when I'm comfortable with me - and surprised by how often trans women are not willing to accept me. Conservatives are conservatives, gender regardless.

[Dahlia]

missrepresentation of an androgynous car ad from Japan.

Well, it can be very confusing. The person in this ad looks and acts very feminine (not effeminate that is, but natural feminine and elegant..) , completely natural and gorgeous at that.... but doesn't claim to be a woman (but would be completely credible if he did so).
He's not even TG but very feminine by nature.
Yet he has to explain that he isn't TG or MTF but he's happy as a born man looking gorgeous and feminine at that.

Many MTF look and act and are very masculine by nature  and claim to be women. And have to explain that yes, despite their manly looks and (very) masculine behaviour they're women.

Like

I met a LtCol who saw combat as an helicopter pilot in Afghanistan. She earned a purple hart. She is a tall and beautiful woman, not the feminine kind, but a sexy nevertheless, self assured 21st century kind of woman.

That's a far cry from working as a (feminine looking AND acting) model in the fashion industry.

I think you need a (VERY) masculine nature AND very masculine looks to come as far like that in the army.
A feminine looking AND acting man wouldn't be taken seriously by his fellow soldiers and wouldn't come as far as becoming a LTCol.

AND it's only within the MTF community she's considererd a 'sexy 21st century kind of woman'...most certainly NOT outside the MTF community because no one understands.

On the other hand the androgynos, gorgeously feminine looking AND acting model 'runs a risk' being seen  by the community in general as a 'sexy, 21st century kind of woman'  because of his looks and behaviour.
But he isn't a woman, nor a TG, but a born man.

It's not 'misrepresentation' it's how someone is by nature.

[Sephirah]

This is it - being yourself takes a while for people, because you have to filter out the cultural noise in order to tune in to the true signal. And I don't welcome people who add their own blare to try and drown out mine.

Speaking of blare... that made me consider posting the vid of Things Can Only Get Better by D:Ream. But then I remembered that people actually have ears. And taste.

[Padma]

I have no taste currently - I have a cold. You can pm it me .