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Difference between androgyne and genderqueer identity?

Started by xander, September 08, 2012, 06:32:32 AM

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xander

Are there different variations of a non conforming gender identity? Or are they all essentially very similar things, just personal preference separating them?
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suzifrommd

Quote from: xander on September 08, 2012, 06:32:32 AM
Are there different variations of a non conforming gender identity? Or are they all essentially very similar things, just personal preference separating them?

There are definitely different forms. Genderfluid - changing genders periodically, agender - not being gendered at all, bigender - having both male and female elements to gender identity, third gender - experiencing a gender other than male or female (sometimes called neutrois) and a few I've probably skipped.

Susan's wiki defines androgyne as "a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society" which encompasses any of the above and so is here used sort of synonymously with non-binary. Genderqueer is taken to be an umbrella term for anyone whose gender doesn't exactly match the biological sex the were born with.

Hope this helps.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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eli77

Actually, it's more in the opposite direction: so many variations that we don't really have sufficient words to cover them all so we tend towards umbrella concepts instead.

Also... As far I know bigender is usually used for people who flip back and forth - male & female. Neutrois is closer to agender - but it's more like non-sexed than non-gendered. And genderqueer is for anyone who doesn't fit entirely into either of the two traditional genders - basically the same concept as androgyne (though genderqueer can tend to carry political overtones). The definition you gave, agfrommd, is closer to the one for transgender.

I loves words.
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ativan

Indeed there are many different forms. And this results in many different terms.
Which has the result of having many different definitions.

This is where a lot of confusion and sometimes discussions that could go on forever.
It seems that there is a lot of overlap in the broad definitions that are used.
There isn't any finite definition in terms that cannot be applied to other terms as well.
You could dissect the range of non-binary genders into an infinite number of points.
The problem that comes up is when people try to place all of these possible points on a line.
That's usually how people tend to look at this. As somewhere on a line spectrum between male and female.

This whole idea, while it sounds logical, doesn't work in the real world of non-binary genders.
Most people, and this isn't limited by any means to non-binary,
will find themselves having gender qualities that would be at different points on a line, at the same time.
These can and do change over time, for some, even throughout a day, others as life goes on.

If you think of these points as a more 3 dimensional kind of spectrum or space,
it becomes easier to distinguish individuals versus terms or broad definitions.
While some, for sure, can and do remain stationary in there individual genders.
Others  pick up and lose some of these other finer points of definitions as they go through their day or life.

Personally, I prefer to think of two of these points, male and female, to be within a 'sphere' of points.
For some, they travel along a relatively straight line from one to the other.
But they will still pick up or use some of these finer points as they do so.
For others, they can have some of these points that are in appearance, scattered all over the place.
This is an illusion that they are scattered, because the person themselves have a gender that is not scattered.

Think of it as more of a mix and match kind of thing, that you can change or it will change.
There are some definitions that do have certain qualities,
yet very few people are going to match those with that kind of certainty.

While everyone loves to define things in a finite manner, this isn't the case with genders.
Especially in the gender areas concerning mainly non-binary individuals.
We tend to combine attributes of gender in indistinct ways.

This leads to everyone having a different definition for the same terms.
Confusion along with confusing discussions of 'just what does this all mean?'.

While Androgyn, out of tradition, serves as an umbrella term on this forum,
it most definitely doesn't include some people in their definitions of gender.
Androgyn is a broad term that combines traits of male and female.
Some other terms do the same thing, but in a different manner.
Some don't combine them at all. More unnecessary confusion about definitions.

One of the things I personally don't like is the term genderqueer.
It combines orientation with gender and doesn't define gender at all.
But you could most certainly use that term to do just that, combine the two. Why not?
My generation, the older than dirt one, can find the use of the word queer to have a very derogatory way of saying 'Gay'.
A sexual orientation based word that in the past was used as a put down,
an attempt to bully those who were or maybe even weren't.

While I personally use Androgyne, as it, in a broad sense does use the defines as I use them,
non-binary is more specific, just for the opposite reason. It uses all the defines or points.

As long as there isn't a Webster size dictionary of definitions that cover all the nuances of gender,
the terms we use will always have overlap and different meanings for different people.
While it doesn't render them useless, which isn't the case,
it makes defining the differences as hard as defining them in the first place.

Androgyne and Genderqueer are two different things, solely for the reason that one defines gender only,
while the other combines gender with sexual orientation.
Nothing is wrong, by any means with either definition, it's just that they have different uses.
It is useful to be able to define yourself as either, while also being able to define yourself as both.

Just to clarify, Androgyn is used as the short-hand word for non-binary on this forum.
Both of which are umbrella terms concerning gender specifics.
Genderqueer could be used the same, but with combining sexual orientation in a broad sense, also.

To briefly answer your question, there is an infinite variation in gender identities.
The terms used, all overlap to one degree or another, just by personal preference in their use.
Essentially they are all the same, in terms of non-binary, but with subtle nuances within each definition.
This is arguable, but that is the nature of us, to try and define many things as separate distinct things.

We use terms, but they should be used only as indications of gender tendencies.
That is our real gender terms, just tendencies, that have a great deal of overlap.
Our terms are boxes filled with so many boxes of different sizes and stacked randomly with each other.

This can make us appear to be unusual or indistinct to some, but it defines us as a group.
Which also makes us a lot of fun to hang around with, on this forum.
Who wouldn't love a bunch of people who don't have a definite definition of themselves?

Ativan
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aleon515

I don't agree that genderqueer really implies sexual orientation. However, it *does* come out of "queer politics" and the LBG community. I think that androgyne is an older term. It might imply someone who does not mind that someone else isn't so comfortable with it or that they like themselves however they are no matter what, thank you very much. It isn't really typical to hear this term outside of college or perhaps a trans center.

The terms aren't identical, but I think a lot of people use them this way. So in one sentence they might describe themselves with any of several terms. I don't think either of them is really exactly umbrella (I realize androgyne is used this way here). I think the truest umbrella term is non-binary. But some people might consider themselves half and half so who knows if there even IS an umbrella term.

Some people wouldn't consider the term they use important, while I think others use language more to figure things out.

--Jay Jay
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Padma

I also don't agree that genderqueer has anything to do with sexual orientation.

Genderqueer is to gender what queer is (these days) to sexual orientation - a broad umbrella to cover folk whose gender identity/expression is "different" from the standard stereotypes.

I've heard it said (though I don't know how true this is) that younger folk prefer genderqueer to androgyne because androgyne has binary-gender kind of built into it as a word (andro-gunē = man-woman), and feels old-fashioned to some.

But people who identify as androgyne don't necessarily relate to it in those terms at all - so in the end it's best to ask people what their labels mean to them, once you've asked what their labels are :).
Womandrogyne™
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ativan

True, for some, genderqueer has only a gender meaning, but why does it have an orientation term in it?
It's only used in a gender sense by those who want it to have that meaning. Mostly younger people, true.
But it's origins are like that of androgyne, a combination of two different things.
Androgyn sounds old fashioned because it's been around for some time, compared to genderqueer.
Genderqueer has stabilized into a gender only term for those who are younger or wish to use the younger definitions.
Not a problem there, all things in language are in flux to one degree or another.
Keeps it interesting, keeps it fun for some, drives others crazy. It works both ways.
As long as the language we are familiar with is binary based, definitions will be fuzzy, and arguable.
Preferably just fuzzy at the worst.

I find it interesting that the discussion of definitions comes up quite often.
A lot of our posts dance around the various terms or definitions to a degree that shouldn't be necessary.
But that in turn, does make for some valuable insights, just the same, because of it.
Our paths in the forest not only wind through it, but also around the trees and other things that are in it.
We find many intersections along the way. Sometimes the inevitable parallel path.
We are at times a funny lot, who understand ourselves, regardless of the matter of discussion.

While the definitions are arguable, we tend to be able to have fine discussions in spite of it.
We tend to be an intellectual group, who spend time discussing and inventing when we need to,
that which we find interesting and different about ourselves as individuals.
I think that is something that is definable. Our somewhat lack of definition is defining.
It's how we view and approach these individuality's that is defining.

It's how we roll, as the saying goes.
"Party at Padma's, BYOB." (and definitions...)

Ativan
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Padma

Queer these days has a meaning that's way beyond just sexuality - people define themselves as queer and mean something like "off to one side of mainstream stereotypical lifestyle" (a whisk thorough the wiki entry for queer will show just how diverse it's become). I think by the time genderqueer was being coined as a term, -queer was just being used in it as a symbol meaning that "off to one side"-ness.

Maybe there are people out there who are calling themselves genderqueer and meaning something to do with sexual orientation, but I haven't met any yet. I'd be interested to hear how that works, for people who do use it that way, though.

For me, I dislike being called queer (even though I totally am :) ) because that word got wielded like a shame-weapon when I was a kid - but genderqueer has none of that loadedness for me as a label. I'm starting to be very fond of it!
Womandrogyne™
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Eva Marie

I have heard that the term genderqueer came about as an attempt to reclaim the word "queer" from the public by the community. And I agree that it's origin is from LBGT queer politics.
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ativan

#9
Quote from: Padma on September 08, 2012, 05:39:35 PM
Queer these days has a meaning that's way beyond just sexuality - people define themselves as queer and mean something like "off to one side of mainstream stereotypical lifestyle" (a whisk thorough the wiki entry for queer will show just how diverse it's become). I think by the time genderqueer was being coined as a term, -queer was just being used in it as a symbol meaning that "off to one side"-ness.

Maybe there are people out there who are calling themselves genderqueer and meaning something to do with sexual orientation, but I haven't met any yet. I'd be interested to hear how that works, for people who do use it that way, though.

For me, I dislike being called queer (even though I totally am :) ) because that word got wielded like a shame-weapon when I was a kid - but genderqueer has none of that loadedness for me as a label. I'm starting to be very fond of it!
I get that it's being used as 'off to one side', and I take it as that when I hear it being used. I'm just to beat up in life from hearing queer to many times in a derogatory way growing up. I am older than most around here. I was literally beat up to many times.
I never thought of myself as being gay, I still don't. What my orientation is,...hell if I know or care. It just is.
It took the extended recuperation as the result of over-masculinity or 'hypermasculinity' to even realize that I was non-binary, even though I had no understanding of what that meant at the time. It wasn't a part of the mainstream in the transgender world back then.
While I don't feel any fondness for the term, I get it when people use it as it is used today. I don't wince at it like I used to. But I still do a little at times.
While it's hard to get over some of the stuff from my past, that's now just a small part of it.
I mean, really, if someone were to ask me if I was genderqueer in the way it is used most often, I would probably have to say no, but my answer to them wouldn't disallow the term to be used if they so wished to.
While it conjures up some bad memories, it is less so than many other things that I have adjusted to in life.
Ativan
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eli77

It makes me sad that the word "queer" is so problematic for the older folks. For me the word conjures only good things. It's the word I'm used to seeing attached to the most progressive and inclusive organizations. It's a word designed to bring everyone together, to respect our differences, but still unify into a kind of community. Queer pretty much always means it's going to be a good space, a good community, a good person. I'm not going to have to hear anything biphobic, I'm not going to have to hear anything transphobic, I'm not going to be uncomfortable because of binary assumptions around gender and sex.

Queer means safe for me. Strange that, how the same word can be so, so different for us.
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ativan

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 08, 2012, 08:53:31 PM
It makes me sad that the word "queer" is so problematic for the older folks. For me the word conjures only good things. It's the word I'm used to seeing attached to the most progressive and inclusive organizations. It's a word designed to bring everyone together, to respect our differences, but still unify into a kind of community. Queer pretty much always means it's going to be a good space, a good community, a good person. I'm not going to have to hear anything biphobic, I'm not going to have to hear anything transphobic, I'm not going to be uncomfortable because of binary assumptions around gender and sex.

Queer means safe for me. Strange that, how the same word can be so, so different for us.
It was a different world back in the fifties and sixties, even in later decades, but not as bad. Even the civil rights marches were pretty wild and as odd as it seems, made for a more violent nation for a while. People spoke in almost another language back then. A lot of derogatory words and terms have changed or disappeared, some haven't as much.

That's pretty nice that it makes you feel that way. I've never heard it put like that, although I hear very little bad about the word from younger generations.
It's pretty cool that a word can be changed around to do that. Life would be pretty good if we could do that with a few other words, just take them and turn them into something good.

Makes me feel good to hear that, thanks. That's something to think about, to consider making more of an effort to adjust to it.

I have, as always, high hopes for those who will be carrying on as my generation ages and passes the torch on to hopefully a better generation who will also work to make the world a better place for the next generations. We always try to.
Each generation has it's different qualities from one to the next. (We're not through, so mind yourselves)
As it's said, it does get better, despite how it may seem at times.

Been there,
Ativan
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eli77

I'm really glad that you liked that. :)

I also wanted to add that I understand and respect that it is very different for the older generations who were attacked with the word. And that I never use it for those people without first knowing that they are okay with it. I've been called enough other things to understand how jarring it can be to see a word being reclaimed that was used to hurt.

But I do wish you could experience it like I do. And I think maybe if you could go to some of those spaces, be in some of those communities which are labelled "queer" you might like it. There seem to be more and more folks who don't see the line between binary and non-binary as particularly rigid. Folks who are more interested in whether you are comfortable, than whether you make them uncomfortable. Who like that we can all be different and still connected.

I feel really lucky to be part of my generation. We are reaping the benefits of everything that you fought for.
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Ave

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 08, 2012, 11:34:21 PM
I'm really glad that you liked that. :)

I also wanted to add that I understand and respect that it is very different for the older generations who were attacked with the word. And that I never use it for those people without first knowing that they are okay with it. I've been called enough other things to understand how jarring it can be to see a word being reclaimed that was used to hurt.

But I do wish you could experience it like I do. And I think maybe if you could go to some of those spaces, be in some of those communities which are labelled "queer" you might like it. There seem to be more and more folks who don't see the line between binary and non-binary as particularly rigid. Folks who are more interested in whether you are comfortable, than whether you make them uncomfortable. Who like that we can all be different and still connected.

I feel really lucky to be part of my generation. We are reaping the benefits of everything that you fought for.

It's true a lot of us younger people don't have any problems with the self-identification as "queer". My only gripe at it is it seems to be every straight-cisgender misfit girl's attempt to wedge herself in "queer" spaces.

of course, that's insofar as has been my experience. I did meet one guy though, that self-identified as "queer".

On second thought, he probably said "queen".

;)
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
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eli77

Quote from: Ave on September 08, 2012, 11:43:10 PM
It's true a lot of us younger people don't have any problems with the self-identification as "queer". My only gripe at it is it seems to be every straight-cisgender misfit girl's attempt to wedge herself in "queer" spaces.

of course, that's insofar as has been my experience. I did meet one guy though, that self-identified as "queer".

On second thought, he probably said "queen".

;)

No worries, I got this. I'm queer and I'm also a male-assigned-at-birth, trans, lady-loving, non-binary, androgynous female. So I make up for at least 3-4 straight cis girls using the term.

Actually, I like that there isn't really any criteria for queer. You can be straight and queer. You can be cis and queer. It's all good. It's just a blanket concept for anyone othered by our heteronormative, cisnormative society. So we can all hang out and be awesome together.

And those straight cis girls should be careful about wedging themselves into queer spaces. Might not end up as straight as they think they are. I am really hot after all.
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Ave

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 09, 2012, 12:29:35 AM
No worries, I got this. I'm queer and I'm also a male-assigned-at-birth, trans, lady-loving, non-binary, androgynous female. So I make up for at least 3-4 straight cis girls using the term.

Actually, I like that there isn't really any criteria for queer. You can be straight and queer. You can be cis and queer. It's all good. It's just a blanket concept for anyone othered by our heteronormative, cisnormative society. So we can all hang out and be awesome together.

And those straight cis girls should be careful about wedging themselves into queer spaces. Might not end up as straight as they think they are. I am really hot after all.

I find straight girls who do that are either

not that straight

or just like the attention lesbians give them.

#1 is okay

#2's have sent many a lezzie crying to me about a failed relationship with a straight girl. Yes, they actually thought it would work out :P

Men are just so much easier <3
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
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eli77

Quote from: Ave on September 09, 2012, 12:37:50 AM
I find straight girls who do that are either

not that straight

or just like the attention lesbians give them.

#1 is okay

#2's have sent many a lezzie crying to me about a failed relationship with a straight girl. Yes, they actually thought it would work out :P

Men are just so much easier <3

I don't mind flirting with straight girls. Flirting is fun even if it's not going anywhere - sometimes especially if it's not going anywhere. But you do have to REMEMBER that it's not going anywhere.

Sometimes mistakes happen though. Basically every gay girl has the "fell for my straight friend" tragedy (including me, sigh). It's like a tradition.

And isn't "easier" just another way of saying "boring"? ;D
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AbraCadabra

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 09, 2012, 12:50:32 AM
I don't mind flirting with straight girls. Flirting is fun even if it's not going anywhere - sometimes especially if it's not going anywhere. But you do have to REMEMBER that it's not going anywhere.

Sometimes mistakes happen though. Basically every gay girl has the "fell for my straight friend" tragedy (including me, sigh). It's like a tradition.
And isn't "easier" just another way of saying "boring"? ;D

Hah! Nice sharing... so I'm not alone... ever so good to know.
To "fall for..." or having a "crush on..." would qualify as being the same I guess, yes?

It can be a kick into the groin when one realizes that 'dick' has sooo much power attraction even if attached to some pretty daft wearer... can give one a bit of a complex... gosh... what IS IT?!?
But, if one is not dead straight, the answer seems very elusive in deed...

Life,
Axélle
PS: "queer" - in my generation - (baby boomers) was simply a derogatory and shorter word for homosexual, like so many other words for it - not being reclaimed (yet?)
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Padma

It doesn't bother me at all, other people calling themselves queer, I get what they mean. I just draw the line at people calling me that (or insisting I should call myself that for 'political' reasons). Guys at school called me queer because I was gender-ambiguous (since I was very careful never to show signs of falling in love with them!) and the self-protection part of me is still on alert when I hear the word coming my way. Plus when I was growing up it just meant 'gay', and I've always been bi or polysexual, so I'm still getting my head around the idea that queer is no longer cruel or specific (unless it's being wielded by some homophobe). And the more I hear queer being used in the modern sense, the more it dilutes my bad memories of it. My reaction is just habit - I hope it wears away someday (I'll be 50 in a couple of months, seems like a good time to change!)

It does fascinate me how I'm reluctant to identify with queer but have no problem with genderqueer (though even a year ago I was less sure about this). That makes me feel young ;D.
Womandrogyne™
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justmeinoz

50 Padma? This Estrogen is good stuff alright. I would have picked you as about 35. Honestly.
I get the same too, lots of friends I have known for a while are shocked when I say will be 59 next month.  I like being mistaken for a 40 y/o.  :)

It is a generational thing.  For me "Queer" will always be partnered with "bashing", so I really don't like to use it.  I have coined the  term "Gender Dissident" instead. Has lots of European connotations of the end of dictatorships. Which is very cool.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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