Depressed about inability to pass - just got a reality check

[Apples Mk.II]

Is that you on your photo??? If so, you're beautiful!!!

And I had been wondering the same thing for days...

[Beth Andrea]

Is that you on your photo??? If so, you're beautiful!!!

lol no. I am that sullen though .

Ahh, shucks. Hope has been dashed yet again.   

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

I think this makes a good point. If people are going to be professional clockers, i.e. clocking tools, then they're going to have a range of accuracy of successful clocks per person (which would be difficult to verify as noted). A measurement (even though it's more of a basis of selection) has to be reproducible and repeatable. Since the varying degrees of masculinity/femininity are ambiguous, the combinations of features are innumerable, and the environment in which someone was clocked is variable, I think to truly "clock" someone is a bold statement (unless you can point out characteristics which are mutually agreed on by whatever party).

Don't get me wrong though, I do think people have varying levels of ability to do it. But I'm just uncomfortable with the overall concept.

We need to discern between clocking and gendering. "Clocking" has a connotation of an overt act whereas gendering is something we unconsciously do dozens of times a day. Again, our perception of people is ALWAYS wrong to some extent. For instance, my African-American house-mate's son says he is constantly being read as a Mexican-American. Whether it is gender or something else, there will always be something people will get wrong. But the main point is that others perception of who we are is always wrong. Always.

So the people that you call professional clockers--whatever that is--are always wrong even if they guess right as far as birth sex is concerned.

Although I do not agree with most of Royce's philosophy, I believe his views on objective reality are spot on.

Realism, so defined, introduces a radical metaphysical dualism. Between my ideas, and a sphere of being that by definition exists completely independent of those ideas, there is a gap that cannot be bridged. Realism posits an objective realm that is utterly independent and hence, strictly speaking, is utterly meaningless to thought.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/royce/

[peky]

Dear 8888,

I started the so called RLE two years ago, and I do not know if I pass or get cloaked or aured or what ever other BS radar  is out there, AND I DO NOT CARE TO KNOW.

I live every day taking care of my kids and doing my two jobs like any professional woman does, with days full of minor irritations, hopes, dreams, and a few triumphs.

The thought of "pass or not pass," does not even cross my mind, I just go about my business proud and confident.

So, if I can give you a tip, it is to just release your inner female and be yourself!

[Shantel]

Pecky,
      You're a can-do chickster!

[peky]

Pecky,
      You're a can-do chickster!

Thank you Honey! Love your Eye for detail

[Elsa]

sometimes it just doesn't matter if you pass or not.

despite living and going out in boy mode I am slowly changing things to a more andro/girly thing with my clothing probably being the last thing to change -

I can't say its not making me unhappy being in boy mode but it does make me happy knowing what I am and what I want to be.

and tbh after a few years it wouldn't matter to me what other people say or think about me. - I simply wouldn't care unless it endangered the lives of my loved ones.

[Carlita]

This thread was making me deeply depressed and reinforcing all the fears that - apart from all the other reasons, to do with my love and responsibilities  for other people - keep me from beginning my transition. But then I began to wonder: how much of the ability to transition is affected by the simple, basic unfairnesses of life.

For example, it really, really helps to transition as young as possible, preferably before puberty is complete, so that one has never possessed a mature male body, or lived in a man's role.

It really helps to be pretty to begin with, or handsome, which actually turns out to be the same thing. Handsome men, with clean, regular, symmetrical features make prettier women - Dr Christine McGinn is a great example of this.

And money is surely a huge, huge help. If you can pay tens of thousands of pounds/dollars/euros for FFS, BA, hair transplants, really good laser/electrolysis, clothes, assistance with voice, movement, styling, make-up, etc, that has to make a massive difference. I was working out the cost of a real top-of-the-line transition and I think it's a minimum £100,000/$150,000, possibly a lot more ... and who the hell can afford that?

[Beverly]

This thread was making me deeply depressed and reinforcing all the fears that - apart from all the other reasons, to do with my love and responsibilities  for other people - keep me from beginning my transition. But then I began to wonder: how much of the ability to transition is affected by the simple, basic unfairnesses of life.

OK - let us redress the balance. At least you CAN transition. At any earlier point in human history this was not an option.

For example, it really, really helps to transition as young as possible, preferably before puberty is complete, so that one has never possessed a mature male body, or lived in a man's role.

True. It helps but that is all it does. It is not a showstopper. I am 49.

It really helps to be pretty to begin with, or handsome, which actually turns out to be the same thing. Handsome men, with clean, regular, symmetrical features make prettier women - Dr Christine McGinn is a great example of this.

Well, it depends on what you wish to achieve. Do you want to be a woman or a model? A huge percentage of the female population is not that attractive or pretty. Nonetheless they seem to get through life.

And money is surely a huge, huge help. If you can pay tens of thousands of pounds/dollars/euros for FFS, BA, hair transplants, really good laser/electrolysis, clothes, assistance with voice, movement, styling, make-up, etc, that has to make a massive difference. I was working out the cost of a real top-of-the-line transition and I think it's a minimum £100,000/$150,000, possibly a lot more ... and who the hell can afford that?

True enough, but is all that needed? I have spent nearly nothing on my transition to date - maybe £1000 over two years? I will not consider FFS or BA until I am on hormones at least 3 years and maybe 5 years to let the hormones have a good run at changing me. Clothes and shoes? I stopped buying male ones and I now buy female ones but i have to buy clothing anyway. Make up is cheap. Voice is inexpensive compared to FFS and so on. SRS does not happen until the end of the process and nobody will ever check my sex by asking me to drop my pants.

I do not need a 'top-of-the-line transition'. I just need to transition and I have learned that having the right chemicals in my body and brain and having my body change its shape is what I really need. As long as I look and act female enough to be treated as female socially then I do not much care about anything else. The rest is window-dressing as far as I am concerned.

[Carlita]

I guess all I was saying is that transition and passing are just like anything else in life. There are certain basic unfairnesses built-in ... and, as you say, one has to tailor ones expectations accordingly. All three factors I listed - youth, beauty and money - apply just as much to cis-women. (Much more than they do to men, BTW). Of course, one can't get any younger ... but nice clothes, a good haircut, a personal trainer, great diet, etc make a massive difference to a woman and are immediately visible whenever she earns or marries money ... and I guess the same must apply to MtFs.

PS:

OK - let us redress the balance. At least you CAN transition. At any earlier point in human history this was not an option.

True!

[8888]

So, if I can give you a tip, it is to just release your inner female and be yourself!

Sounds like something you'd hear on LP.

If it was as simple as this there wouldn't be any "transitioning" - No HRT, no voice change, same hair, same clothes, I mean it's not like I hide under a "male" character when around people anyway, there really is no "female" inside I just do what I do without putting on an act which naturally means being interpreted as a man because of the way I look.

So you could say I'm already "being myself", but it doesn't exactly make me feel good.

[Beverly]

Sounds like something you'd hear on LP.

If it was as simple as this there wouldn't be any "transitioning" - No HRT, no voice change, same hair, same clothes, I mean it's not like I hide under a "male" character when around people anyway, there really is no "female" inside I just do what I do without putting on an act which naturally means being interpreted as a man because of the way I look.

So you could say I'm already "being myself", but it doesn't exactly make me feel good.

I know it sounds odd to say it is as simple as that, but it really can be that simple. Peky has a point. You can do the voice, change the clothes, restyle the hair, etc, but it is a lot of effort. And then one day you find that something inside changes and you can run about with little or no make up, jeans and a T-shirt and people start treating you as female. It really is some sort of internal acceptance - when you feel that there is no going back - not ever! There is only a female path ahead, there are no other options. Once you fully accept and make peace with that destiny something changes and so does everyone else.

It is weird, incomprehensible and liberating, all at the same time.

[Beverly]

... but nice clothes, a good haircut,

Anyone can do this, male or female. It need not be expensive

a personal trainer

Whatever for?

great diet

It actually costs less to eat well than it does to eat junk food. I can feed a family of four with good food for less than the price of one 'meal' at McDonalds.

The only real expenses an MTF has that a 'normal' person does not is the cost of hormones, SRS and (for some) FFS or BA. Many convince themselves that they need FFS and BA when they do not, but cis-women are not much different. We have all seen GGs get boob jobs who never needed it done. Even SRS is optional since it will make no difference to how others see you.

[Shantel]

Well, it depends on what you wish to achieve. Do you want to be a woman or a model? A huge percentage of the female population is not that attractive or pretty. Nonetheless they seem to get through life.

This is the best question for everyone with self doubts. Honestly, there are so many truly homely and sometimes mannish looking cis women in any given place on any given day that it's just a wonder how they manage, but they do! Being a woman isn't about looks, clothing, hair, boobs or vagina's. One of my favorite lady friends is a short-round who walks like a guy kicking dirt clods on a farm, but she is a swell woman with a great sense of humor and I couldn't possibly see her as anything but a full blown woman. A really good exercise is to go the the mall and get a seat at the coffee stand and observe women for about an hour. Then throw the Victoria's Secret catalogs away, those women are all teens and early twenties who have been totally photo shopped and air brushed. Real women don't look like that!

[Carlita]

It really is some sort of internal acceptance - when you feel that there is no going back - not ever!

I was thinking about this exact phenomenon this morning and it occurred to me that it's a bit like someone converting their religion.

Imagine a girl who's raised in Christian family. She marries a Jewish guy. His family are desperate for her to convert to Judaism, because her kids can't be Jewish unless she is, too. She loves her man. She wants to please his family and she's not a particularly committed Christian (maybe she's not very religious at all) so she agrees to convert.

As the process begins, she's a Christian becoming a Jew.

Then she's a Jewish convert who used to be Christian.

Then time goes by. She has kids. The family celebrate Jewish religious ceremonies and feast-days. All her new family welcome her in and the women treat her as one of their own. People who don't know her just assume she must be Jewish. Her son has his bar-mitzvah. Just by osmosis she starts seeing the world from a different perspective, through the lens of new experience.

And then, one day she realises that she's not a Jew-who-used-to-be-a-Christian. She's Jewish, plain and simple.

Kind of a similar thing ...


PS: Re: 'personal trainer - what for?' ... I just cite that as one example of something affluent cis-women pay for that affects their appearance. I'm not suggesting it's necessary, in any serious, moral sense. But that, along with all the other things I've listed absolutely does have an affect on cis-women's appearance. The entire multi-billion fashion/cosmetics/diet industry depends on the perception that you can buy good looks (and through them happiness, popularity, a better partner, etc) ... Again, I'm not making any moral comment as to the value of that system. But it absolutely exists and, just as drugs wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar business if they didn't work at all, so the business of making women prettier persists because it's not entirely ineffective. Why would it not work for transwomen, too?

[Beverly]

so the business of making women prettier persists because it's not entirely ineffective. Why would it not work for transwomen, too?

Oh it does work for transwomen too, but a huge amount of the beauty business is based on hope. Time after time, tests have shown that things like expensive moisturiser costing £100 per tiny tub is no better than a £3 bottle in the supermarket. Some of them are no more effective than butter!

Once you pay more than about £5 or $5 for things like lipstick, mascara, and so forth then you are wasting your money. Foundation is an exception but even the good ones cost less than £10.

It is a huge industry but most of its success is based on offering hope rather than results.

[Nicolette]

.......It is a huge industry but most of its success is based on offering hope rather than results.

That's why I'm an atheist..

[Beverly]

That's why I'm an atheist..

Because of the beauty industry? That is a first....

[Carlita]

Because of the beauty industry? That is a first....

I guess the reasoning would be that if God existed, the least She could do would be give us a decent face-cream ...

[Nicolette]

Because of the beauty industry? That is a first....

Sorry, mine was a silly quip, but

It is a huge industry but most of its success is based on offering hope rather than results.

I can think of many other industries that are based purely on hope. Hope is a very powerful motivator.