Does It Really Matter If One Does Or Does Not Believe That Jonah Was Swallowed ?

[Annah]

Why bother believing in God if you think His Word is "just" a book, a gathering of fables?

same way I believe Abraham Lincoln was a good and honorable man without believing the tale that he walked two miles barefooted in a snowstorm to return an overdue library book. The story in itself is not true but there is truth in the story. The story emulates Lincoln's admiralty to resolve a crises in our Nation at the time.

Same with George Washington. He cut down a cherry tree with an ax and then said, "I must not tell a lie, I did cut down that tree." While the story is not literal, it conveys a truth that George Washington was a man of devout honor.

I follow the same logic with the Bible.

I believe God is infinitely just and full of abiding love. The scriptures, while not literally true, has stories of truth to emulate God's essence.

I believe in God and miracles just as much as any Bible literalism Pentecostal. I just do not take the stories literal. Some of the stories would be impossible. The dimensions of an ark to house two of every kind of animal would have been much bigger than 137 by 23 by 14 meters (440 feet long, 73 feet wide, and 43 feet high). Even the smallest town zoo is 10 times that size and only houses a miniscule percent of animals (even if one did take into consideration the origins of each primal animal in the world at that time).

So, the story of the ark is a literal impossibility but the truth of the story is there: God will always see humanity as a creation that is worthy of a second chance. That, in my opinion, is much more important than believing whether or not Noah built a boat.

[Snowpaw]

So given that Jonah got out we can safely assume the whale spits.

*hides in cardboard box and sneaks away*

[SarahM777]

I believe in God and miracles just as much as any Bible literalism Pentecostal. I just do not take the stories literal. Some of the stories would be impossible. The dimensions of an ark to house two of every kind of animal would have been much bigger than 137 by 23 by 14 meters (440 feet long, 73 feet wide, and 43 feet high). Even the smallest town zoo is 10 times that size and only houses a miniscule percent of animals (even if one did take into consideration the origins of each primal animal in the world at that time).

So, the story of the ark is a literal impossibility but the truth of the story is there: God will always see humanity as a creation that is worthy of a second chance. That, in my opinion, is much more important than believing whether or not Noah built a boat.

Do we have anything else on a modern system that could give us an idea of how much space that really is and can give us an idea of how many animals that could be held in that space? The purpose of a zoo is far different than a holding container.

Taking on the basis that it might just be closer to a chicken breeder farm than a zoo for the purposes of containment. Translate the cubic feet to inches it comes out to 198,887,040 cubic inches. The current chicken breeder farm allows 130 cubic inches per chicken. That comes out to that the ark could if all the space was used for chickens for a total of (drum roll please)............ 1,529,900 chickens. Split the space in half and that is still over 750,000 chickens. This is a modern method of the amount of space used by breeders farmers in this day and age.

[Shantel]

I don't have a problem with the whale thing. It's possible Jonah got scooped up by one of those plankton eating monsters half a block long that swim the oceans with their huge gaping maws wide open scooping up plankton by the tons. I do think it will be a problem for those who are unable to believe in what they can't see, touch or feel, because humanity's reality will change dramatically when the fourth dimension suddenly ceases to exist.

[Annah]

I don't have a problem with the whale thing. It's possible Jonah got scooped up by one of those plankton eating monsters half a block long that swim the oceans with their huge gaping maws wide open scooping up plankton by the tons. I do think it will be a problem for those who are unable to believe in what they can't see, touch or feel, because humanity's reality will change dramatically when the fourth dimension suddenly ceases to exist.

True but the stomach is for digestion. A human wouldnt live past 4 minutes before drowning in bile ...much less than 3 days

[Annah]

Do we have anything else on a modern system that could give us an idea of how much space that really is and can give us an idea of how many animals that could be held in that space? The purpose of a zoo is far different than a holding container.

Taking on the basis that it might just be.... 1,529,900 chickens. Split the space in half and that is still over 750,000 chickens. This is a modern method of the amount of space used by breeders farmers in this day and age.

The measurements i gave are the exact measurements in Genesis. There is no way two of ebery primal animal could fit....and coming from a family of 4 generations of chicken farmers i can assure you that you cannot fit 1.5 million chickens..
Plus you need to factor in animals such as lions, elephants, hippos, rhinos, etc

[tekla]

Next you're going to be trying to tell me that there was no talking snake either...

Let's see. Uh, it was on an island. And there was this snake.
And the snake had legs. And he could walk all around the island.
Yes. That's true. A snake with legs.
And the man and the woman were on the island too.
And they were not very smart.
But they were happy as clams. Yes.
Let's see. Uh...then one evening the snake was walking about
in the garden and he was talking to himself and he saw the woman
and they started to talk. And they became friends.
Very good friends.
And the woman liked the snake very much. Because when he
talked, he make little noises with his tongue, and his long tongue
was lightly licking about his lips.
Like there was a fire inside his mouth and the flame
would come dancing out of his mouth.
And this woman liked this very much.
And after that, she was bored with the man.
Because no matter what happened,
he was always as happy as a clam.
What did the snake say? Yes! What was he saying?
OK. I will tell you.
The snake told her things about the world. He told her about
the time there was a big typhoon on the island
and all the sharks came out of the water. Yes.
They came out of the water and they walked right into your house
with their big white teeth.
And the woman heard these things. And she was in love.
And the man came out and said: We have to go now!
And the woman did not want to go. Because she was a hothead.
Because she was a woman in love.
Anyway, we got into their boat and left the island.
But they never stayed anywhere very long.
Because the woman was restless. She was a hothead.
She was a woman in love.
And this is not a story people tell.
It is something I know myself.
And when I do my job, I am thinking about these things.
Because when I do my job, that is what I think about.

Laurie Anderson, LANGUE D'AMOUR

[SarahM777]

I don't have a problem with the whale thing. It's possible Jonah got scooped up by one of those plankton eating monsters half a block long that swim the oceans with their huge gaping maws wide open scooping up plankton by the tons. I do think it will be a problem for those who are unable to believe in what they can't see, touch or feel, because humanity's reality will change dramatically when the fourth dimension suddenly ceases to exist.

The thing is if everything was created by an all powerful God,who created all of the dimensions,all of the seen matter,understands how things work to the most minute details,who created the very sub atomic particles,"step" into the physical realm and suspend natural processes or change the very molecules that He created. If so then for God to have a whale or a fish swallow some one,spit that person out on the shore and have no damage done or if damage was done to bring that person back to life is well within the capabilities of God.

[MaidofOrleans]

I don't understand why many Christians think that because one part of the Bible is wrong than all of it must be wrong and since that cant happen they have to believe that all of those ridiculous stories are actually true.

That's like saying that because there is a piece of misinformation in a science textbook that the entire textbook is invalidated and wrong and that science doesn't really exist.

[Incarnadine]

I don't understand why many Christians think that because one part of the Bible is wrong than all of it must be wrong and since that cant happen they have to believe that all of those ridiculous stories are actually true.

That's like saying that because there is a piece of misinformation in a science textbook that the entire textbook is invalidated and wrong and that science doesn't really exist.

It is because if you can doubt one portion of it, you can doubt any portion of it.  Plenary verbal inspiration and literal interpretation are a house of cards.  If the Noahic story is not 100% as written, then the validity of my salvation is in doubt.

If the Bible can be proven wrong historically, archaeologically (sp?), scientifically, or in internal consistency, then the truths contained within can be doubted.

[SarahM777]

The measurements i gave are the exact measurements in Genesis. There is no way two of ebery primal animal could fit....and coming from a family of 4 generations of chicken farmers i can assure you that you cannot fit 1.5 million chickens..
Plus you need to factor in animals such as lions, elephants, hippos, rhinos, etc

I never said that you would try to fit that many chickens in there. But you could. Breeder farmers do do that. It's part of what PETA and HSUS are fighting against because it really is so far from humane treatment.

First one has to look at the text to get what it says.

Genesis 7:14-16

14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.

First it is limiting. The only animals included in that list are animals that move along the ground and birds,and things with wings. First off what does that list not include? Amphibians are limited,all reptiles that are ocean and water dwellers,no sea mammals,and no fish or any other water dwelling creature.

Kind is also a limiting factor. It is closer to genus as opposed to species.  You would not need all of the different canines,felines,butterflies etc. You would need say a lion and a tiger because they can not produce fertile offspring,but not necessarily a tiger and a panther.

Average size of the animals is also a factor. Take all of the animals from the biggest to the smallest and the average size is smaller that a house cat. That makes one huge difference.

Factor in age of the animals also makes a huge difference. An animal did not have to be full grown. An elephant that had reached the age of being weaned and just reaching adulthood is one half the height of a fully older age adult elephant.

Factor in that the ark was large enough to hold about 570 railroad boxcars.

It has been figured that the most animals that actually were needed is a bit less than 50,000,not the millions that is so often thrown around.

Figure them at an average size of sheep. The math adds up with room left for all the food and water,and room left for the families.

[SarahM777]

Next you're going to be trying to tell me that there was no talking snake either...

People say it was a snake the same way they say it was an apple. The text says serpent and fruit.
The text also state that it was the craftiest of all of the animals. Is there a creature that was claimed to be able to speak and was crafty? What other creature was also called a serpent? What other creature looks very similar to a dinosaur? Could it possibly be what is known as a dragon? You decide.

[Annah]

I don't understand why many Christians think that because one part of the Bible is wrong than all of it must be wrong and since that cant happen they have to believe that all of those ridiculous stories are actually true.

That's like saying that because there is a piece of misinformation in a science textbook that the entire textbook is invalidated and wrong and that science doesn't really exist.

Sadly, some think this way. If there is one error, then everything, including any truths gleamed from the scriptures is all but lost, etc etc. This is why some conservative Christians look at me funny when I say I have a lot of faith and love in my God....even if the scriptures are just stories. A book doesn't have to literal in order for me to understand the awe of God; It transcends above a book.

When Christians shake their head and say "how can you believe in Evolution? This takes away from the creating power of God" Then some will use the anology, "the odds of Evolution happening is the same as a tornado whipping through a junkyard and forming a fully functional 747 Jet.

I then reply, "that's how awesome my God is. Knowing that my God can take something as against all odds and creating the spark of life, that in return, gave birth to us through countless years of evolution. If it is true that the odds of Evolution is as high as a tornado making a jet...then maybe the hand of the divine was involved in the process of evolution. That, to me, takes a lot more faith than reading about a man name Adam and a woman named Eve who were the very first people.

[Annah]

People say it was a snake the same way they say it was an apple. The text says serpent and fruit.
The text also state that it was the craftiest of all of the animals. Is there a creature that was claimed to be able to speak and was crafty? What other creature was also called a serpent? What other creature looks very similar to a dinosaur? Could it possibly be what is known as a dragon? You decide.

It is the Hebrew word for snake. No getting around that one If it was a dragon or a dinosaur they would have used the same Hebrew word as noted in the Book of Job and Behemoth.

And yes, you are right...it isn't an apple. Just an unnamed fruit.

[Annah]

It is because if you can doubt one portion of it, you can doubt any portion of it.  Plenary verbal inspiration and literal interpretation are a house of cards.  If the Noahic story is not 100% as written, then the validity of my salvation is in doubt.

If the Bible can be proven wrong historically, archaeologically (sp?), scientifically, or in internal consistency, then the truths contained within can be doubted.

So when  you found out George Washington did not chop down a cherry tree, or Lincoln did not walk barefooted in the snow, or that witches were not burnt in Salem, or that Queen Marie Antoinette did not say "let them eat cake" will you then discount the meaning behind the truths in which these stories were created and end up not believing in the people or the events that had transpired around the story?

While they are not historically accurate, you cannot discount the truths in which spurred the stories in the first place.

[Incarnadine]

So when  you found out George Washington did not chop down a cherry tree, or Lincoln did not walk barefooted in the snow, or that witches were not burnt in Salem, or that Queen Marie Antoinette did not say "let them eat cake" will you then discount the meaning behind the truths in which these stories were created and end up not believing in the people or the events that had transpired around the story?

While they are not historically accurate, you cannot discount the truths in which spurred the stories in the first place.

If you relegate the stories in the Bible as nothing more than folklore, then the truths contained within are no more valuable or authentic than the stories you mentioned.  If the stories you mentioned are on equal footing with the Bible, then your foundation upon which your life is built is folklore. 

[SarahM777]

It is the Hebrew word for snake. No getting around that one If it was a dragon or a dinosaur they would have used the same Hebrew word as noted in the Book of Job and Behemoth.

And yes, you are right...it isn't an apple. Just an unnamed fruit.

That is part of the problem with reading it in English as opposed to Hebrew,Greek and Aramaic. I think we do lose something in translation. If I remember correctly Hebrew doesn't have any vowels or punctuation. We get so wigged out if it's a fish or a whale,does it really change it that much? Does it really matter if it's a snake or a dragon? I just think we get to worked upon the minor hair splitting details. We need to be able to get the message of what is being said. I have no problem that God did do what He said He did.

[tekla]

Somehow the story would lack a certain impact had it been a talking sloth.  "Whatever lady.  It's not like I care.  Eat, don't eat, I'm still hanging upside down."

will you then discount the meaning behind the truths in which these stories were created and end up not believing in the people or the events that had transpired around the story
That would seem to be the rational interpretation.  If Washington had been all that honest, couldn't they find a true story to illustrate it?  Is it possible that Marie Antoinette was not quite that brazen, perhaps, but of all the stuff that was said about her, that is actually pretty mild, when other accusations included sexually molesting her own son, and all sorts of other decedent sexual adventures.  Witches were not burned in Salem, but 19 were hanged, and one was pressed to death.  And I've never seen any accounts of burning in Salem, though the practice was common enough in Europe for a long time.  Ask Jeanne d'Arc, though I think that was technically for heresy.  But if you have something that is true, why then the need to make up something else? 

[SarahM777]

Sadly, some think this way. If there is one error, then everything, including any truths gleamed from the scriptures is all but lost, etc etc. This is why some conservative Christians look at me funny when I say I have a lot of faith and love in my God....even if the scriptures are just stories. A book doesn't have to literal in order for me to understand the awe of God; It transcends above a book.

When Christians shake their head and say "how can you believe in Evolution? This takes away from the creating power of God" Then some will use the anology, "the odds of Evolution happening is the same as a tornado whipping through a junkyard and forming a fully functional 747 Jet.

I then reply, "that's how awesome my God is. Knowing that my God can take something as against all odds and creating the spark of life, that in return, gave birth to us through countless years of evolution. If it is true that the odds of Evolution is as high as a tornado making a jet...then maybe the hand of the divine was involved in the process of evolution. That, to me, takes a lot more faith than reading about a man name Adam and a woman named Eve who were the very first people.

Isn't that what they call "Theistic Evolution"? Basically the gist if I have it correctly is that God set it in motion then stepped back and let it "evolve"

One of the foundational reasons I do not believe that,has to do with Einstein's mathematical equation for the Theory of Relativity. E=MC squared,it fits creation. You may ask why.

And God said let there be light.

What happens when ones speaks? It creates sound waves,sound waves are a form of energy,energy becomes light and matter. It is one of those things that is a sign post. In and of itself it is not proof.
But each signpost strengthens the basis of my belief.

[SarahM777]

If one is a 100% literalist,What does one do when Jesus says things like these

Matthew 5

29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

If that is to be taken literally,then there should be an awful lot of blind male Christians.

Luke 9

23 Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

If it is to be taken literally,then there should be a lot of us carrying around a big piece of lumber. It would be very difficult to work if He meant it literally.

We need to be careful on which is to be taken literally and which is not. Taking a western mind set does not help. It was never written to be taken from a Greek Philosophical mind set. To often it is read from a modernistic perspective and it's best understood prayerfully,in context by book,who wrote it,to whom it was written,who was speaking and to whom was it spoken to,and within the historical context if known. then let the Bible explain the Bible. It works much better that way.