Gender Change - Michigan - Minimum Criteria??

[rhonda13000]

(stated with cold determination...)

I very much want to change the gender concomitantly with my name and birth certificate revision.

I WANT THIS. 

I have heard different thing insofar as the minimum criteria to accomplish such in Michigan, is concerned.

If I can legally effect this change antecedent to vaginoplasty (which is inevitable), I will do so.

I have either had or performed numerous transitionally related surgeries and I am accordingly seriously wondering if I now do indeed, met minimum criteria for that designator change.

Again, the past is past and a wonderful future is now.

Would any of you perchance possess actual knowledge of the necessary criteria for effecting this change?

I will as always, research this exhaustively, but any information  would be greatly appreciated.

I will live like 'this' no more.

[seldom]

(stated with cold determination...)

I very much want to change the gender concomitantly with my name and birth certificate revision.

I WANT THIS. 

I have heard different thing insofar as the minimum criteria to accomplish such in Michigan, is concerned.

If I can legally effect this change antecedent to vaginoplasty (which is inevitable), I will do so.

I have either had or performed numerous transitionally related surgeries and I am accordingly seriously wondering if I now do indeed, met minimum criteria for that designator change.

Again, the past is past and a wonderful future is now.

Would any of you perchance possess actual knowledge of the necessary criteria for effecting this change?

I will as always, research this exhaustively, but any information  would be greatly appreciated.

I will live like 'this' no more.

Legally speaking with the federal government and most states (save for NY) the ONLY thing can change your documents if you are MtF is a vaginoplasty.  All of the other proceedures are meaningless as far as the law is concerned.  It is differant for FtM (the requirements vary a great deal here, some states only require top surgery, others require more). 

You can change your name any time.  But changing your gender on your birth certificate cannot happen until SRS, no matter what state you are in. Some allow you to change it on your drivers license, but I would not risk that with the Real ID acts draconian measures. 

That is why I often say SRS should remain the TOP priority in terms of proceedures when talking to TS about the legal aspects of sex change.  Legally speaking for a MtF all the other proceedures mean absolutely nothing.  Do your RLT, get this done first.  Then go through the other proceedures. 

This site is a good resource for any state birth certificate issues:
http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html
Michigan

Michigan will change both name and sex, and will issue a new birth certificate rather than amend the old one. Michigan law also provides for "sealing" of the old record. For further information, see Michigan Compiled Law 333.2831.

You will need an original letter from your SRS surgeon, and an original or certified copy of the court order for your name change. The fee is $26.00.

Contact information:

Michigan Department of Community Health
Changes Unit
(517) 335 - 8660
http://www.mdch.state.mi.us/

Ms. Carol Getts
State Registrar and Chief
Office of the State Registrar Center for Health Statistics
gettsc@state.mi.us

[rhonda13000]

I...most certainly will not dispute you relative to SRS, but inadequacy of funding makes such not even on the horizon.

The name change and sealing of the birth certificate however, is already in legal process.

[cindianna_jones]

Wow, you can seal the old record with a court order?  I wonder if this will work in Utah where I was born. They will not change the name on my cert. They only provide an "amendment" which means that if anyone checks, they get to see both records.

Cindi

[rhonda13000]

Wow, you can seal the old record with a court order?  I wonder if this will work in Utah where I was born. They will not change the name on my cert. They only provide an "amendment" which means that if anyone checks, they get to see both records.

Cindi

I will tell you what, girl: if there is a way for me to alter the gender designator from the accursed "m" to "F", I will find it. 

--Make that, "Lord Willing, I will find it."

To God be the glory.

[Melissa]

But changing your gender on your birth certificate cannot happen until SRS, no matter what state you are in.

Ah, but this is not necessarily true.  I personally know 2 people who had orchiectomies and have been changing their documentation.  They both live in Washington and one was born in Oregon and the other in California.  Both are now legally considered female and the one born in Oregon has completed all document changes including her BC and the other one is just finishing up with her birth certificate.  Also, they used an attorney to handle all the legal changes.

Rhonda, I remember warning you of this problem before you performed your surgeries.  Perhaps your best bet at this point is to seek an attorney who can navigate the legal system for you.

[rhonda13000]

But changing your gender on your birth certificate cannot happen until SRS, no matter what state you are in.

Ah, but this is not necessarily true.  I personally know 2 people who had orchiectomies and have been changing their documentation.  They both live in Washington and one was born in Oregon and the other in California.  Both are now legally considered female and the one born in Oregon has completed all document changes including her BC and the other one is just finishing up with her birth certificate.  Also, they used an attorney to handle all the legal changes.

Rhonda, I remember warning you of this problem before you performed your surgeries.  Perhaps your best bet at this point is to seek an attorney who can navigate the legal system for you.

I know that honey and I will not get explicit about that subject here; that would be highly inappropriate.

But as I had said sweetie, it became literally a matter of life or death for me. I had no choice, for my mind was being ripped apart by endogenous "T".

That is all that I will say relative to that subject. I found a wonderful home here and I do NOT want to lose it. 

You know honey, I am vastly different than I was at BL and I am somewhat of a strong girl, but  I do not even want to think about ;osing what I have here @ Susan's...

...I have REAL family here and people who actually care avbout me and I very much, them.

It would very likely kill me to lose this...................I don't even want to think about that. 

[Melissa]

I know that honey and I will not get explicit about that subject here; that would be highly inappropriate.

But as I had said sweetie, it became literally a matter of life or death for me. I had no choice, for my mind was being ripped apart by endogenous "T".

That is all that I will say relative to that subject. I found a wonderful home here and I do NOT want to lose it. 

You know honey, I am vastly different than I was at BL and I am somewhat of a strong girl, but  I do not even want to think about ;osing what I have here @ Susan's...

...I have REAL family here and people who actually care avbout me and I very much, them.

It would very likely kill me to lose this...................I don't even want to think about that. 

I understand.  I was lucky in that my body rejected testosterone, but had it been worse, I may have done the smae thing.  Heck, I actually seriously considered it too, but I had my reasons that kept me from going through with it and this topic being one of them.  I'm glad you feel at home here too.  I never really felt like I was really accepted at the other forum and now rarely visit it.  Hugs.

[seldom]

Wow, you can seal the old record with a court order?  I wonder if this will work in Utah where I was born. They will not change the name on my cert. They only provide an "amendment" which means that if anyone checks, they get to see both records.

Cindi

Sorry Rhonda, the law is the law, you are kinda stuck.  There is no way to change your documents in Michigan without SRS, this is why I say SRS needs to be the first priority to every TS as far as surgical proceedures. 
Utah is not a transsexual friendly state.  Sorry.

Also Melissa, I would warn those people to be very careful, even with an attorney handling it.  They may have changed thier state documents (if the states are more flexible) but once the Real ID act comes into play it can change everything for them.   Tell them to be VERY careful, because the Feds do not accept orchi's to change SS and passport documents, only SRS changes gender markers, and they may force a change on the state documents when Real ID comes into effect, and they WILL change back any federal document revisions.  If they did get thier federal documents changed, they will force a reversal of these documents if it was an orchi.  This has happened before multiple times.  As safe as they may think they are even with an attorney assisting them, they are not safe as far as documentation and they should make SRS a priority in the next couple of years in case it does get challenged. 


If an attorney handled this, honestly, I would sue them for mal-practice.  This can end up being devastating to both of your friends. 

[rhonda13000]

Speaking rhetorically, feel free to color me weak and even insipid Melissa, but I need to be here, a part of this community.

There was a time not so long ago, when I never would even have admitted such to even myself; in fact prior to self discovery and subsequent initiation of my own journey, that I would adamantly deny needing others or any sort of social interface, but that was a grossly dysfunctional state [to say the least].

But not anymore.

At this point at least in my journey, I need to be a part of this community.

Color me weak if you will, but so be it; no apologies here, hon. 

I am very glad that you are here.

Wow, you can seal the old record with a court order?  I wonder if this will work in Utah where I was born. They will not change the name on my cert. They only provide an "amendment" which means that if anyone checks, they get to see both records.

Cindi

Sorry Rhonda, the law is the law, you are kinda stuck.  There is no way to change your documents in Michigan without SRS, this is why I say it is a mistake to change anything until this is done. 
Utah is not a transsexual friendly state.  Sorry.

Also Melissa, I would warn those people to be very careful, even with an attorney handling it.  They may have changed thier state documents (if the states are more flexible) but once the Real ID act comes into play it can change everything for them.   Tell them to be VERY careful, because the Feds do not accept orchi's to change SS and passport documents, only SRS changes gender markers, and they may force a change on the state documents when Real ID comes into effect, and they WILL change back any federal document revisions.  If they did get thier federal documents changed, they will force a reversal of these documents if it was an orchi.  This has happened before.  As safe as they may think they are even with an attorney assisting them, they are not safe and they should make SRS a priority in the next couple of years in case it does get challenged. 


If an attorney handled this, honestly, I would sue them for mal-practice.  This can end up being devastating to both of your friends. 

But yours has me thinking......I wonder how that I can do this.

Again, the possibility of GRS is not even on the proverbial horizon and I am concerned that even more oppressive specious legislation will be enacted, in the days to come.

I am wondering.........

I am wondering if a bilateral orchi in conjunction with a radical penectomy would satisfy that requirement.

I know, I know - you did say GRS only....but...

[rhondabythebay]

Thanks for starting this topic Rhonda, being Michigan born, it has provided me with important information. I'm glad you are here at this forum. Your posts are so full of raw emotion. They always get me to thinking and feeling about my own and others struggle to transistion.

Hugs,

Rhonda

[Melissa]

Speaking rhetorically, feel free to color me weak and even insipid Melissa, but I need to be here, a part of this community.

Nah, you're not weak not insipid, you're just being smart by identifying what you need.

Also Melissa, I would warn those people to be very careful, even with an attorney handling it.  They may have changed thier state documents (if the states are more flexible) but once the Real ID act comes into play it can change everything for them.   Tell them to be VERY careful, because the Feds do not accept orchi's to change SS and passport documents, only SRS changes gender markers, and they may force a change on the state documents when Real ID comes into effect, and they WILL change back any federal document revisions.  If they did get thier federal documents changed, they will force a reversal of these documents if it was an orchi.  This has happened before multiple times.  As safe as they may think they are even with an attorney assisting them, they are not safe as far as documentation and they should make SRS a priority in the next couple of years in case it does get challenged. 

Hmm, ok.  So if they have their BC, SS, passport, and any other documents changed to say female, how will the government know it was with an orchi?

[rhonda13000]

Thanks for starting this topic Rhonda, being Michigan born, it has provided me with important information. I'm glad you are here at this forum. Your posts are so full of raw emotion. They always get me to thinking and feeling about my own and others struggle to transistion.

Hugs,

Rhonda

But do you know what, Rhonda? I absolutely refuse to allow myself to plummet into an abyss of depression over this, or the apparent impossibility of acquiring GRS.

I have as Melissa has observed, done this before, but no more.

As I perceive the matter, if it is the Lord's Will, He will make it happen.

And in this knowledge, I have much confidence and contentment.

I choose to be content and at peace.

I will continue to investigate, as He would expect me to, but I'll not let the apparent unattainability of either altering the gender marker or acquiring GRS get me down.

Life is indeed good, now. 

[Melissa]

Life is indeed good, now. 

And THAT is what is important.

[rhondabythebay]

But do you know what, Rhonda? I absolutely refuse to allow myself to plummet into an abyss of depression over this, or the apparent impossibility of acquiring GRS.

I'm there with you on that one. I've spent too much time in the abyss myself, now is the time to live!
I'm glad your life is good now.

Hugs,

Rhonda

[seldom]

Speaking rhetorically, feel free to color me weak and even insipid Melissa, but I need to be here, a part of this community.

Nah, you're not weak not insipid, you're just being smart by identifying what you need.

Also Melissa, I would warn those people to be very careful, even with an attorney handling it.  They may have changed thier state documents (if the states are more flexible) but once the Real ID act comes into play it can change everything for them.   Tell them to be VERY careful, because the Feds do not accept orchi's to change SS and passport documents, only SRS changes gender markers, and they may force a change on the state documents when Real ID comes into effect, and they WILL change back any federal document revisions.  If they did get thier federal documents changed, they will force a reversal of these documents if it was an orchi.  This has happened before multiple times.  As safe as they may think they are even with an attorney assisting them, they are not safe as far as documentation and they should make SRS a priority in the next couple of years in case it does get challenged. 

Hmm, ok.  So if they have their BC, SS, passport, and any other documents changed to say female, how will the government know it was with an orchi?

Melissa, I don't know how or why, but the Federal Government always seems to figure out the TS who have a orchi vs. the ones who have had SRS.  Those who have had orchi tend to get their information changed BACK.  It is a VERY dangerous thing to do.  The Feds actually do contact the doctor who performed the procedure to check what procedure was performed.
As invasive as this is, it has happened.  They may have changed their documents, but there has been many instances where the fed has changed them back.  The rules on both the state and federal level are CRYSTAL clear, the only way you are allowed to change your documents is to undergo SRS or GRS.  And Orchi IS NOT considered SRS under these laws and regulations.  While your friends may have done this, even with the assistance of an attorney, it is not allowed under state or federal law.  Your friends may have been able to get around the law, but they did not follow it, and like all things involving TS, these things DO  eventually catch up to to the person.  There has been SEVERAL individuals who have done exactly what your friends did, with the help of an attorney, and found themselves with everything changed back. 

An Orchi is NOT SRS as far as state and federal government are concerned I highly suggest you DO not try this, and I highly suggest to your friends to go through with SRS eventually.  It was a MAJOR mistake on the part of the attorney, and honestly the attorney should be disbarred and sued for malpractice for even trying this.  The laws are very clear on this issue.  SRS is the ONLY way you can change sex and gender markers (except NY State) on documents.  Trying anything else is putting yourself at risk for a future legal mess. 

[Melissa]

That's fine.  I saw them in person ast night and verified that they had changed all documents.  She said she had with social security, but had not ever applied for a passport.  Perhaps it may be changed back on them and that is not a sword of damocles I would want to live with.  Either way, my license is good until July 2008 and I have my SRS scheduled in March 2008, so there shouldn't be any problems on that end for me.  If for some reason I ended up with an M on my DL *after* SRS, I would probably laugh because I know I pass and I know it would be wrong since I would have the part to prove it.  I guess my main point is that I have seen it demostrated that it's possible to do in states besides New York.  I don't think the lawyer exactly did anything illegal, but rather just used a loophole in the law.  In other words orchi->legal gender change in court->change gender markers elsewhere.  Whether it's foolproof or not is a different issue and you could very well be right about them changing it back.

[seldom]

That's fine.  I saw them in person ast night and verified that they had changed all documents.  She said she had with social security, but had not ever applied for a passport.  Perhaps it may be changed back on them and that is not a sword of damocles I would want to live with.  Either way, my license is good until July 2008 and I have my SRS scheduled in March 2008, so there shouldn't be any problems on that end for me.  If for some reason I ended up with an M on my DL *after* SRS, I would probably laugh because I know I pass and I know it would be wrong since I would have the part to prove it.  I guess my main point is that I have seen it demostrated that it's possible to do in states besides New York.  I don't think the lawyer exactly did anything illegal, but rather just used a loophole in the law.  In other words orchi->legal gender change in court->change gender markers elsewhere.  Whether it's foolproof or not is a different issue and you could very well be right about them changing it back.

Actually I did some follow up research.  What he (the lawyer) did was technically illegal.  Both states require SRS to change birth certificates.  Like I said, they are the ones who are at risk, and the attorney should be in trouble for this.  This is not a loophole in the law, it is not following clear state and federal regulations and hoping everything is okay and works out. (Federal regulations are CRYSTAL clear on this, if you get an orchi, they do not allow you to change the SS documents, they might at first, but somehow they always get around to changing it back.) This is not a "loophole" by any means.  Like I said, what your friends have tried, has been tried before, with everything getting turned back.  It has RUINED people lives. 

TS are an "at risk" group.  Many people like your friends try to get around the law, and it ends up hurting them in the long run.  Some TS like your friends take these things to lightly and try to do document changes without everything "done", and they end up getting hurt down the road.  Above any other group we need to make sure everything is done within the boundaries of the law, because we can so easily be hurt by things not being done correctly, and it ALWAYS happens at the worst possible moments. 

I have recommended many times over not to change documents, do not even attempt it, until you get SRS.  I still stress that.  This is as an attorney.  If you find an attorney who will do it, well that is actually a problem not a solution.  Because down the road it could very well hurt you. 

[Melissa]

I have recommended many times over not to change documents, do not even attempt it, until you get SRS.  I still stress that.  This is as an attorney.

I assume you mean ones that say they require SRS such as social security and birth certificates.  I had my license changed already, but I just went through normal legal means.  Any other documents I am waiting on until after SRS because I don't want any problems and so far I have done everything legally including HRT.   If somebody asks to see one of my previous documents, I tend to actually find it humorous since it actually requires convincing people I wasn't born in a 100% female body despite the fact that I've never had any surgeries to make me appear more female.

[amberctm]

Actually I did some follow up research.  What he did was technically illegal.  Both states require SRS to change birth certificates.  Like I said, they are the ones who are at risk, and the attorney should be in trouble for this.  This is not a loophole in the law, it is not following clear state and federal regulations and hoping everything is okay and works out. (Federal regulations are CRYSTAL clear on this, if you get an orchi, they do not allow you to change the SS documents, they might at first, but somehow they always get around to changing it back.) This is not a "loophole" by any means.  Like I said, what your friends have tried, has been tried before, with everything getting turned back.  It has RUINED people lives. 

So were did you get your research from. Perhaps stating your sources will provide others with a chance to read through the law themselves.


This drives me nuts:
"The Feds actually do contact the doctor who performed the procedure to check what procedure was performed."
This is so not true I love to see where you pulled this one from. I'll write my congressman over it! Ha, Patient confidentiality...You sign nothing to let them view your med records when changing gender markers. That is why they require a letter. In VT for instance states that "you must be irrivocably committed" meaning no turning back. After orchi, I would say your commited.

I know you said your an attorney, so show us where to find this stuff.

-Mischa