Again with Oregon

[Leigh]

Identification





Transgender proof plan draws critics
By Jeff Wright
The Register-Guard
Published: Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Requiring transgender people to show documentation in order to use public bathrooms and showers would create more problems than it would solve, a half-dozen people told the Eugene Human Rights Commission on Tuesday night.
Such documentation is discriminatory "and smacks of Big Brother," said Judy Moseley, a member of the Lane County Human Rights Committee. "Who's going to ask for the documentation, and who's it going to be asked of?"

[stephanie_craxford]

I guess if we go into the shower we would have to wear the document around our neck and keep it in plastic to prevent the ink from running.

There was a better solution to the document thing though, let me think.... where was it....  hmmmmmm.... it had something to do with getting a number tattooed on your forearm, and, oh yes you had to wear a pretty yellow star so that everyone knew who you were... darn if I can remember where that was.

Chat later,

Steph

[Leigh]

The Black Triangle was used to identify "socially unacceptable" women, according to the Nazis. Lesbians were included in this classification.

Now, Lesbians have reclaimed the Black Triangle as our symbol in defiance of repression and discrimination as Gay men have reclaimed the Pink Triangle.

[Leigh]

 An update.

http://www.dailyemerald.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/10/31/4365da2e91baa

Don't let restrooms flush gender protection

Editorial
By Emerald editorial board
October 31, 2005

The city of Eugene's attempt to add protections for transgender people to its anti-discrimination ordinance is truly admirable, but discussing the finer points of the change has created unnecessary delays. We must stop mincing words, deal with this problem rationally and instate the protections.

Surely, little harm can come simply from adding the classification "gender identity" to a list of identifying features that should not be discriminated against

[Cassandra]

As with all things political the devil is in the details. You can get a lot of people to agree in principal but when you get into the details you have to deal with diametrically opposed believe systems. That's were you run into problems. It seems on the surface to be a simple proposal but when you start entering in the realm of not in my backyard that's when otherwise "liberally" minded people start drawing lines in the sand.

This is the trouble I have with most so called liberal people and conservatives as well. They can talk a fine game in princilple but when it comes to applying those principles watch them all run for cover. In my life I have found that few people ever mean what they really say. In Oregan you got the law, getting the application is yet another battle that has to be fought. The key is in having the battle won before it is fought. Sung Su.

Cassie

[joanna]

At least it's comforting to know that some communities are making an effort to recognize that the transgendered are people to.  I live in an area that is so anti-everything especially when it comes to those who are gay or lesbian.

The few times I venture out I always try to make sure I will not have to use a restroom facility.  But you never know.  Trouble is you only have two choices and both of them may be wrong

joanna

[silverguy]

women have the privacy of stall...men have stalls & urinals with no privacy..some cultures require men to seek privacy...why not "restrooms' with stalls, period...must be the same oregon politicians who came up withthe "20 MPH at all hours/times " in school zones, wht a waste of politician hours & taxpayers money on that 1...roger

[michelle]

Some places gender specific bathrooms are beginning to disappear.   In many elementary schools many teachers bathrooms are for women/men/wheel chairs for one rest room.

One school had two restrooms for teachers.   One was for women and the other for women/men/wheel chairs.

[Terri-Gene]

 

documentation in order to use public bathrooms and showers would create more problems than it would solve

A true statement in my opinion.  It is why I have never believed in a political solution to the bathroom issue.  It focuses on fear of the unknown rather then actually addressing a problem in any real significant way.

As to bathrooms, common sense tells one that the only documentation that works is proper and consistant  presentation, and if not present,  All the documentation in the world will do nothing but create the very scene Laws would attempt to eliminate.  If you "pass" then there is no issue, if you don't, it will just cause problems.  And I don't want to get into the appearance issues of passing, as there is a heck of a lot of more important things involved in that, even if those who see you know or suspect you were not born female.  It is a matter of being, or acting, and most people will recognize the difference regardless of appearance and respect those that are.

As to showers, thats going to far for those who are not post.  Personally, I would be highly offended by the presence of a "thing" in the shower with me, even on a fully documented pre-op, and as a pre-op, I would not be so incourteous as to enforce the view of mine on other women who may not appreciate it, even if it is "supposed" to be non funtional.  having had an Orchie is NOT a valid argument in all cases that one is not able to function as a sexual male, and don't anyone argue that point with me as I know better.  I do not believe identity laws should apply to nudity areas even if restrooms are approved.

Such things can only be addressed by education as you can't legislate the feelings and emotions of people.  Meanwhile, the bathroom issue continues to degrade the entire rights movement by focusing attention on sexual issues rather then basic needs of life.  We are a long way just yet from that kind of tolerance from the majority of mainstream.

Around here, the trend is to focus on protections and for the most part avoid such issues and have the same legal rights as the gay community, right down to medical and insurance issues as well as employment, housing and financial concerns state wide, and a lot of that is due to keeping the bathroom on a lower priority and as much as possible, out of political discussions.

I want my rights, but not at the expense of the rights of others.

Terri

[stephanie_craxford]

Very well stated Terri,

I agree 100% with you.  I love the way you put things into perspective. 

I want my rights, but not at the expense of the rights of others.

sums it up rather well.

Chat later,

Steph

[Thundra]

OK, I hope I do not go too far off topic on this, but what the hell?

It is on this point that I become angry with the medical community.  They create the standards of care, which says, that an individual must go thru RLT in order to be following their rules.
They know that this includes using the restroom of the new gender. So, where are the therapists, doctors, and psychiatrists when this kind of discussion is breached in the public domain?

They could make things a lot easier, I would guess, by stating plainly and simply, that it is a required medical directive that has TG people use the restroom of their chosen gender.  If several members of the mental health community showed up at a hearing in Eugene, and foisted their considerable educational credentials for all to see, maybe things would get a little easier for their clients? So where are they, hmmm?

That's what I thought.....

[LostInTime]

I know part of the problem and that falls with those who present as one gender but so completely act as their birth gender.  I went to a party that my therapist had last year and all of the gender groups were invited so there were crossdressers, transsexuals, drag queens/kings...the gamut.

I had a horrible time and most of it was because of dealing with men who happened to be wearing dresses.  No effort to effect a feminine voice at all.  The walked, talked, and acted like men.   They just happened to have on dresses, wigs, and makeup.  Apparently they do go out in public like this and to be honest, I would not want to share a bathroom with them at all because they made me uneasy.  Would I turn them into the police?  No, not at all unless they made unwanted advances.

Then there are the other stories I come across.  One involved a transsexual woman who transitioned in place.  OK, no big deal and I did that too.  She was allowed to use the women's restroom.  OK, very cool, I get to do that too even though it is just one specific bathroom until I am post op.  She speaks in her old male voice and will use the stalls while standing up and talking to others around her.  Yes, the women there were very uneasy and did not want to share that bathroom.  I do not blame them.

The one thing about these particular people in the gender spectrum is that I have found them to be a minority of TG people.  However, who do you think will stand out in the mind of someone?  Me, who goes in and goes out without doing much else but using the facilities but when engaged in conversation can speak mostly within a female range of voice and carry myself in a feminine manner or the one who only bothers to dress the part and not much else?

That is why we have these issues.  Everyone in the TG spectrum has to get it through their heads that we are in this together, no matter what anyone else may say.  What we do and how we do it does impact everyone else in at least a small way.  That is not to say that we have to stick to some rigid idea of how a man or woman should act but to exercise some common sense.  I wear mostly jeans and shirts, it is rare that I have a dress on at all.

/rant

Flame suit on.   

[Terri-Gene]

You need no flame suit Lost in Time.  You've said nothing but the truth, and that truth is one of the major reasons for the divisions in the TG community.  Politically, it gains us more to avoid the bathroom and simply go for anti discrimination in employment, housing and presence, waiting for such legislation when times are better to present it, but when we fight on such platforms, the element you are talking about whines about being left out and that nobody is doing anything for them, the fact they can obtain and hold a job or not be kicked out of a house or apartment simply slides by them unnoticed if they don't get the bathroom.

I don't know the solution to this, other then personal restraint and things like Thundra said, a little help from the medical people, but even with that it is a little hard for the public to absorb when we have so many bad actors in our midst who will do what they want just because they can, with no regard to the political and emotional harm they cause and therfore actually tear down the gains made by education, as they clearly do not project what the professional people would be saying about the "need" to be recognized as women but we can't simply desert these people as to do so is to apply the principle of discrimination ourselves and we have enough of that.  It is a problem even in the gay community, where tolerance is preached, but recognition and understanding is withheld from some of thier major subgroups and they have the same arguments about not supporting these subgroups in order to enhance thier political standing.

I used to support addressing these problems from within and educating ourselves to establish a group mentality of image, restraint and political conciousness here at Susans and all that happened was I got labled Elietist, Facist and discriminatory thus starting a lot of angry arguments along with being called a seperatist eventually leading to being banned from this system until Susan granted amnesty for those who could come back and not be a further problem.  Notice how I stay pretty much clear of political activisim around here these days even in the activism forum that was specifically created at one point in all that for me to rant in and thus keep my "crap" off the rest of the system?

Education is key in our fight for equality, but it has to extend to ourselves, not just the public and we each have to realize how our individual actions affect the whole.  A simple thing, responsibility toward the cause, but there are those who used to tell me to shut up and leave people alone about it so they could discuss "REAL" TG issues and problems?  Heaven forbid we make any attempt to define what a TG person is that is consistant with what we say it is to provide the consistancy that is required for public understanding.

Anyway, I'm off of it, I learned my lesson and I don't want to get started on an uphill roll again .... unless it can be done without finger pointing and anger with intelligent thught and restraint for the betterment of our own understanding of ourselves and our environment.

Terri

[beth]

                              Acceptance in the restroom cannot be forced. When we can live openly at work and at home, the acceptance will come as society gets to know who we are.  The few remaining hard core haters will be marginalized by society just as the racist are now.


beth

[Sheila]

I see that the restroom issue got heads up here too. Rebecca and I were not discussing restrooms when we talked about documentation and the documentation was just mentioned as a way of getting gender identity into our ordinance. We asked for other ways, and this has to do with showers and not restrooms. Let me see now, there is no other ordinance that doesn't have its excepttions to showers and lockerrooms in the US or Cananda. Leigh, you should know, you were there when Portland put theres into existence. So now we are tagged along with Nazi Germany cause someone doesnt read  or listen. I have been through this with the HRC and with the trans. community who wants coed showers. They have told me so. It will not happen in the US, not in my time anyway. So why is this takeing so long, ask the rest of the community.
Sheila

[Leigh]

23.01.070 Discrimination in Places of Public Accommodation Prohibited

(Amended by Ordinance No. 175158, effective January 15, 2001.)

A. It shall be unlawful to discriminate in public accommodations on the basis of an individual's race, religion, color, sex, national origin, marital status, age if the individual is 18 years of age or older, or disability, by committing any of the acts made unlawful under the provisions of ORS 659.037, 659.425, or ORS 30.670 to 30.685.

B. In addition, it shall be unlawful in public accommodations to discriminate on the basis of an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, source of income or familial status, by committing against any such individual any of the acts already made unlawful under ORS 659.037 or ORS 30.670 to 30.685 when committed against the categories of persons listed therein.


23.01.040 Exceptions. -

. The prohibitions in this Chapter against discriminating on the basis of gender identity do not prohibit:

1. Health or athletic clubs or other entities that operate gender-specific facilities involving public nudity such as showers and locker rooms, from requiring an individual to document their gender or transitional status. Such documentation can include but is not limited to a court order, letter from a physician, birth certificate, passport, or driver's license.

2. Otherwise valid employer dress codes or policies, so long as the employer provides, on a case-by-case basis, for reasonable accommodation based on the health and safety needs of persons protected on the basis of gender identity.

3. The above exceptions do not excuse a failure to provide reasonable and appropriate accommodations permitting all persons access to restrooms consistent with their expressed gender

[Thundra]

<<  I have been through this with the HRC and with the trans. community who wants coed showers. They have told me so. It will not happen in the US, not in my time anyway. So why is this takeing so long, ask the rest of the community.
Sheila >>

Whoa!  ARE you saying that EVERYONE in the TG community wants co-ed showers?  Exactly what kind of showers are we talking about here, and is that specifically spelled out in any resolution that has been drafted?

While I am in support of folx that practice their gender-xxxx attitude, I am NOT in support of anyone with a male genitalia prancing around in front of me.  Their self-expression stops at my nose. That includes bars and parades.

[edit] edited out due to inappropriate use of language see Site Rule #10 Shelley[/edit]

Now, if by public showers we are talking about individual cubicles for washing and dressing, then I have no problem with pre-op or non-op women using the facility labelled for women, anymore than I would object to the same person using a shared restroom facility with stalls.  I DO expect those same people to SIT DOWN when in a women's restroom, regardless of their plumbing.

If a person cannot be discrete, and fit into their new gender role, than maybe they ought to use the men's restroom.

I do not believe in discriminating against anyone regarding their expression of gender, which is a social role.  I do however draw the line at sexually demonstrative displays.  Let's all stop confusing sex and gender. A person choosing to live in the opposite gender role, to their sexual anatomy does not offend me.  A person, that INSISTS on a public display of said non-conformity is not, IMNSHO, interested in discussing a gender role problem. They are grinding a different axe, and I do not support them.

If this is the situation that caused a clamoring for personal ID, isn't the point moot?  Shouldn't the public display of the male anatomy in a woman's restroom facility automatically warrant arrest, regardless of ID?

What the hell is the HRC thinking for $%&&% sake?

[stephanie_craxford]

I have to agree with Thundra on this.  Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy.  Although we may be allowed into womens only showers and washrooms with proper documentation, I'm of the view that unless you are post op for showers and can pass without problem in the other areas then I believe that we should stay out of those areas.

Sure we may be exercising our rights but to what end.  I don't care how great you look with cloths on, but I'm afraid that any one of us would be hard pressed to convince any GG that you were female with a penus waving at them, even with a truck load of documents and certificates.

I myself pass very well, but when I go to the fitness centre, I always use the "Family Changing Area" as they have individual change and shower stalls.  I'm just being discrete and respectful just as I would expect others would be towards me.

We need allies, not hystrical women.

Just my thoughts,

Steph

[beth]

         IMO anyone who wants to expose male genitals in a female only situation is not transsexual but perverted male.

              If this means no shower facilities are available, work out at home or find a place with seperate showers, a business cannot be expected to build facilities for every possible person that may want to use them. I am preop and I would never want to be in any nude situation, all female,all male,all trans or all dogs with cold noses.




beth

[Sheila]

I see everyone got what I was trying to say. Thank you. Even Leigh put up the Portland, Or. ordinance with the exceptions. If you want to read what some of our people are trying to push read our ordinance in Eugene, Or. It is on the web, this is what they are trying to push down others throats. It is 4.635  1 C. This is the paragraph in question. We are only asking for something that can work for everyone when it comes to public nudity in the showers.
Sheila